Tweeter Replacement, or Replacement Speakers?

[Auralsaga]

Tweeter Replacement, or Replacement Speakers?

Hi folks,

I recently bought a pair of Monitor Audio MR6 speakers from a well-rated, commercial audio seller on a well-known web platform which were described as working perfectly. The tweeters on both speakers don't appear to be working. They came with a 3 month warranty and the seller is happy for me to return them, but ominously stated, 'we'll check them over when they are returned' (you'd expect they would), but as i'm a dis-trustful sort i'm worried about my refund!

Speakers were as described (cosmetically) when they arrived apart from it looked like somone at some point had been inside the back panel as there was slight cracking round the screws on one speaker audio in panel. No biggie.

Mids and lows sound fine on both speakers, but generally there is that 'muddy' sound. Stuff like Nils Frahm sounds amazing, but there are no vocals on the recording used. Switched to something high frequency (Jeff Buckley's Grace album), put a loo roll up to the tweeters and zero sound, on both.

Switched out amps, speaker wire and settings...no difference. Then cracked out the multimeter and decided to separate one tweeter from its housing (don't tell the seller!!), no ohms detected at all...well, there was 0.004 ohms. Seemed to be a fair bit of oxidation, but no signs of anyone having entered the housing before as screws untouched and very tight. I have the jumpers attached and they are tight, so that's not the issue either. Attached my Kef Cresta speakers etc. and no issues at all with sound.

Seller is adamant that the speakers were fully tested before delivery (v.well packaged), so no physical damage on delivery, or since by me.

Thing is. The speakers cost £170 total and i'll have to go through the whole thing of organising a courier for return, packaging back up (kept the packaging etc.), then maybe battling for a refund. I should point out that I wanted these speakers for 2 channel audio, although I also wanted to use them as part of a home cinema set-up (all my other speakers are Monitor Audio Silver) and they seemed to fit in well, despite the tweeter issue.

Firstly, does anyone agree that the tweeters are fried and replacements (at £70 may do the job if I just take the hit and try to get some part compensation from the seller)? Secondly, should I just send them back? If I do that though, monitor audio floortstanders are hard to come by second-hand and for delivery, in the right colours etc. etc. Thirdly, if I do replace the tweeters could I still be in a situation where there is another issue that's also causing 'muddiness'?

This is a bit of a bummer as I ALSO bought a pair of Kef Concords previously which also had the same issue (have been refunded), so i've been burned twice now and losing faith.

I'd appreciate any comments, or suggestions.

Cheers.

System :
Nad 3020i Amp (owned from new)
Yamaha v581 AV Receiver (from new)
Audio Innovations cable (think it's 14 gauge)
Panasonic dmp-ub900ebk (using this for CDs for the timebeing)

 

[Ugg10]

First thing to do is to check that the jumper bars are properly fitted on the back of the speakers, sometimes undoing and doing them back up can solve a dry or corroded junction.

Double check you are connecting red to red and black to black for wires between the amp and the speaker, easily done to reverse these and this is probably the easiest way to creat a poor sound. We have all done it so worth double checking, your speaker cable should have a riddle or mark on one cable Core.

Finally I’d you have spotify or other streaming services there are test tone tracks on there or sweep tracks from 20hz to 20kHz, playing these (not too loudly to preserve the bass end) will show any parts of the spectrum that are significantly quieter than others.

hope this helps.

Edit, just reread your post, zero ohms across the tweeter is not good, should read some wher between 4 and 8ohms static impedance. Does it measure the same across the rear posts with everything attaches as it was?

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

Assuming you bought them on eBay then just return them not as described. The seller pays the return and you’re guaranteed a refund.

 

[Auralsaga]

First thing to do is to check that the jumper bars are properly fitted on the back of the speakers, sometimes undoing and doing them back up can solve a dry or corroded junction.

Double check you are connecting red to red and black to black for wires between the amp and the speaker, easily done to reverse these and this is probably the easiest way to creat a poor sound. We have all done it so worth double checking, your speaker cable should have a riddle or mark on one cable Core.

Finally I’d you have spotify or other streaming services there are test tone tracks on there or sweep tracks from 20hz to 20kHz, playing these (not too loudly to preserve the bass end) will show any parts of the spectrum that are significantly quieter than others.

hope this helps.

Edit, just reread your post, zero ohms across the tweeter is not good, should read some wher between 4 and 8ohms static impedance. Does it measure the same across the rear posts with everything attaches as it was?

Thanks, much appreciated.

I re-tightened all the jumper cables when I got them and then again today (one had come loose). I also re-wired to the amp at the weekend as I installed banana plugs, but I will double-check again that I have the right polarities.

Ran the YPAO mic on the Yamaha, it said all speakers are in phase. I also have the Munsell disc and all appears to be ok re phasing.

I ran the multi-meter across the tweeter connectors with all switched off. I'm no expert (thus why i'm on here!) but yes, it was practically no Ohms. I'll try the rear posts now. As I said, really appreciate your input.

I know that I got a 'deal' on these speakers and others used can be mid £250s mark, so I am wondering as they are hard to come by if I should just splash out for replacement OEM tweeters?

I wonder how the sellers tested them. I did ask them if they tested them with an Ohm metre as it's difficult to separate the high speaker from the tweeter, but the sound is unmistakable at being 'muddy'...got zero response.

My di-pole Monitor Audio surround back were from same company and work great and bought a silver centre from a Gumtree seller and amazing.

Now I just want proper hi-fi from physical sources for 2 channel. I only play cds. they work fine when my centre is also hooked up, but guess that's not the point!

Could just send them back and buy another pair of standmounts, or floorstanders for c.£250, but concerned i'll have yet another donkey and i'm draining cash just now finding something that works...

Cheers

 

[Auralsaga]

Ok, just trimmed all of the wires for cleaner connections, including jumpers, switched cables, tightened everything down and same results; no sound from both tweeters.

Put the multimeter into the the ports where the banana plugs should go (on the speakers, not the amp), checked all polarities etc. Banana plug ports on the speakers were reading 0.004 Ohms, speaker wire read well.

When squeezing the multimeter probes in with the speaker wire through the wired connection on the speakers I did get a momentary high of 8 ohms, so guess crossovers are ok.

Guessing it may be worth buying new OEM Monitor tweeters from Ortons AV (not the original seller!) as I don't fancy a potential fight with the ebay seller (too busy and well...over it). Used floorstanders are hard to come buy at £170, so maybe spending a total of £250 is worth fixing them and trying at least to re-coup some money from the seller rather than taking a punt on yet another set of speakers that may be dubious.

So, new tweeters? Would appreciate any further thoughts.

Cheers

 

[Ugg10]

You could remove the jumper bars and just plug the amp into the tweeter connectors on the back of the speaker (upper connections), turn the amp to zero volume, play something through it and slowly increase the volume and see if you get sound out of the tweeter. This will let you know if the tweeters are totally dead or just sound bad. Don’t be heavy handed with the volume (1/4 volume max I would say) as the tweeters will probably only be rated at 20-30w maybe and any more power will blow them. Also remember to switch everything off when connecting or disconnecting anything to reduce any crackles or thumps.

 

[Auralsaga]

Thanks Ugg, really appreciate your help, it's been really useful.

Just removed the bridges and attached the speaker wire to the HF only...same results as before...zero sound from the tweeters. The high speaker was carrying all the weight. Used the old loo roll to the tweeter thing and isolated my other ear.

Played Corpus Cristi Carol by Buckley, which is ridiculous for highs and nothing at all from the tweeters.

Thanks

 

[Ugg10]

I think that is pretty conclusive then. You are getting some high through one of the woofers a this is a 2 1/2 way design where one of the woofers plays only the very low notes (probably around 300hz) and the other is left to meet the tweeter at around 2khz but will be producing sound up to around 7khz or so.

Sounds like they need to go back or try and find some tweeters on eBay I guess. It may be cheaper to see if you can find some cheap MR1’s if they use the same tweeter, just a thought.

Happy hunting and hope you get it resolved.

 

[Auralsaga]

Thanks Ugg, your expertise has been invaluable. Really appreciate it.

Well, I sent an email to the company asking to speak to senior management and for a compromise whereby they compensate me for buying new tweeters rather than going through the palava of arranging couriers, packaging, being around for pick-up, getting my money back on the courier, nevermind what it will cost them, bad review for them etc. Drama and boring!

Offered them a video of what is wrong with the speakers while they play.

I'm pretty confident of a result as I know my way around the law.

As an aside I noticed you have a Canon 6d, great camera. I've got the 5d MkIII.

Cheers,
A

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

Having bought Monitor spares there’s no way they’ll refund you the cost of new parts. That’s not a reasonable resolution. Just return them. It’s not a difficult process and your refund is guaranteed.

 

[Paul7777x]

Thanks Ugg, your expertise has been invaluable. Really appreciate it.

Well, I sent an email to the company asking to speak to senior management and for a compromise whereby they compensate me for buying new tweeters rather than going through the palava of arranging couriers, packaging, being around for pick-up, getting my money back on the courier, nevermind what it will cost them, bad review for them etc. Drama and boring!

Offered them a video of what is wrong with the speakers while they play.

I'm pretty confident of a result as I know my way around the law.

As an aside I noticed you have a Canon 6d, great camera. I've got the 5d MkIII.

Cheers,
A

It’s the most basic legal argument. They don’t work. Don’t do the job they are designed for and are therefore not fit for purpose.

The seller is wide open.

If it was eBay you bought them from I’d simply bypass the seller and arrange a return through eBay. Also the seller will be responsible for the return cost under ebays rules.

 

[Auralsaga]

Thanks for your reply. Contacted the seller, kept the speakers and requested they re-imburse me for the cost of tweeter replacements which they have done, so all should be well know. I just wanted to be sure that I wasn't missing any possible fixes!

Cheers

 

[nabeshima]

If you try to fix yourself and that won't work you might end up in wasting money as the seller might not replace you the speakers anymore.

I understand the convenience but I'd probably avoid the risk

 

[Auralsaga]

Well, i've gone ahead and received the refund for the £70 for genuine and new replacement tweeters, so too late for me to go back now. I followed all of Ugg's advice as well as my own investigations and i'm 90% certain it's the tweeters that are fried and not crossover issues as the other ports are working fine in both speakers. I did take a chance but i'm confident it'll work out. I'll report back.

Thanks everyone for your input. Really appreciate it.

Now, i'm going to try and replace the ferrofluid in the dud Kef Concord IIIs that i've got before I sell them on (if working), or for parts if not! Just a fiddly task, not a difficult one. Seller gave me full refund on these after much back and forth and doesn't want them back either!

Cheers

 

[Auralsaga]

Hi all,

As promised...an update...Well, I received the new (old) stock tweeters from Ortons AV, fitted them in about 10 minutes and finally the Monitor Audio MR6s work beautifully. So, really appreciate all of your help and guidance. It was worth not sending the speakers back. Can't believe how easy it is to replace modern speaker parts with no soldering etc. Plug and play. So, as I received a refund for the tweeter replacements. The speakers cost me a total of £170, pretty good for reference speakers in nice cherry wood with good grilles. I see many going for £300 on Ebay.

I put the ferrofluid in my Kef Concord III speakers and...nothing. I'd checked all the linkages and component parts so I guess the tweeters are goosed. As said before, luckily the seller (finally) gave me a refund (don't EVER buy electronics of Faceshmuck...lesson learned).

Tweeters for this historic model cost about £60 each. I've no idea what would be a suitable alternative replacement as I don't have the knowledge. I do have a soldering iron though!

Anyhow, i'm going to sell them for parts only. Taking one of them apart, they were totally hand built, including penned signatures on who worked on them. Lows and Bass are apocalyptic, but the highs dead (someone in the 80s clearly played Duran Duran too hard). Although the seller told me they were working 3 months before....ermmm....possible smell of something...

Also now have the stands lying about which weigh about 30kgs together (black, fabricated bespoke from steel with spiked feet), so will probably have to resort to gumtree as way too heavy for postage, same for the speakers!

Cheers,
A

 

[Ugg10]

@Auralsaga Good result, enjoy the new (to you) speakers, glad you got it all sorted.

As for the Kef’s, it looks like they use the T33 tweeter which wilmslow audio suggest the Vifa DX25TG-59-04 is a replacement. These are around £25 each from Falcon Acoustics if you want to get them back up and running.

KEF - Concord III (1978-80) Celeste III (1978-80) - United States

The Celeste III and Concord III were distinctive for their industrial design, the all-round black grille cloth and matching ULS 1 and 2 single pedestal stands allowing them to stand out from the conventional square wooden boxes of the time.

us.kef.com

Wilmslow Audio Ltd Repair and Upgrade Service

Bring your old loudspeakers back to life It is very tempting to throw away your old loudspeakers just because one or two of the units have stopped

www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk

Peerless Vifa DX25TG59-04 Tweeter

Peerless Vifa DX25TG59-04 Tweeter

www.falconacoustics.co.uk

 

[Paul7777x]

@Auralsaga Good result, enjoy the new (to you) speakers, glad you got it all sorted.

As for the Kef’s, it looks like they use the T33 tweeter which wilmslow audio suggest the Vifa DX25TG-59-04 is a replacement. These are around £25 each from Falcon Acoustics if you want to get them back up and running.

KEF - Concord III (1978-80) Celeste III (1978-80) - United States

The Celeste III and Concord III were distinctive for their industrial design, the all-round black grille cloth and matching ULS 1 and 2 single pedestal stands allowing them to stand out from the conventional square wooden boxes of the time.

us.kef.com

Wilmslow Audio Ltd Repair and Upgrade Service

Bring your old loudspeakers back to life It is very tempting to throw away your old loudspeakers just because one or two of the units have stopped

www.wilmslowaudio.co.uk

Peerless Vifa DX25TG59-04 Tweeter

Peerless Vifa DX25TG59-04 Tweeter

www.falconacoustics.co.uk

Good find sir.

Certainly cheap enough and will make the Kefs easier to sell.

 

[Auralsaga]

Hi all,
Thanks for the comments and advice. I'll have to think about the replacement tweeters as i'm not sure i'm up for soldering at the moment...plus i've dropped quite a bit on hifi recently! Just received a Pioneer PD-S703 today CD player. Sounds amazing and the lens hadn't even fallen out during delivery!
Cheers

 

[AlastairH]

This situation worked out well, I am happy to read!

I've bought several times on that certain site and elsewhere and have had mixed issues regarding the performance of tweeters, for older generation speakers. I do totally believe in running older speakers, I am fan of actives and having an expert (as I am not) re-cap amp packs and boards accordingly, re cone or change drivers as needed.

What surprises me is how some sellers I have bought from historically, have not recognised the lack of hi frequencies and or issues with drivers. I have for example had 3 instances of faulty ATC's with their mids and tops. Thankfully if patient, they are repairable (in most instances I'd say possibly not if the product has been discontinued).

I guess my overall point here is that it is always more ideal to hear a speaker in the seller's home (using your type of music to demo) before committing but clearly that is not always logistically possible!

 

[Auralsaga]

Alistair, thanks for your post. Yes, the KEF's are goosed and not willing to spend another £100 to get the tweeters for them, solder etc. So will unfortunately sell for spares or repair as they're taking up alot of space in my livingroom!

Yes, I agree. You don't have to be an electrical engineer to figure out your tweeters are blown before selling the speakers, so I think there is alot of dishonesty out there. I'd be very cautious of buying speakers unseen next time, but glad the Monitor Audios worked out well (was compensated in both cases).

I assumed the MAs would be fine as they were from a premium high-volume UK seller on Ebay. Can't argue with their post-sale customer service though, but was just the hassle of it all and apparently they had tested the speakers before selling...hmmm.

With the KEFs I bought them on boxing day. The guy's whole family was visting and he'd already wrapped them all up. Went with my gut, but was mistaken! Lesson learned for me.