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TV with integral DCDi or Panel with external DCDi Scaler?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs Forum' started by GaryG, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. GaryG

    GaryG
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    I could do with some help from the experts on this. I use a Faroudja NRS with Barco 808 projector and now want a plasma for the living room but am having a hard time weighing up the pro's and con's of a plasma TV with integral DCDi against a plasma panel with an external DCDi scaler.

    The 42" 1024*768 sets don't 'add up' to me, that's a 4:3 aspect ratio, somewhere along the line the picture has to be cropped when fed a true 16:9 signal which leaves me with a standard def 42" set or go for a 50" 1366*768. I haven't ruled out a 50" but as a first foray into plasma territory for just normal TV and DVD viewing (not sky) I think a 42" SD set will be fine.

    I'd appreciate some advice from anybody who's had the opportunity to see integrated versus external DCDi scalers.
     
  2. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    The pixels are rectangular not square, that is why it is widescreen with 1024x768.

    I have not seen a plasma look as good with an internal scaler as with an external scaler.

    What set are you thinking of?
     
  3. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Yes, I know the pixels are rectangular, pretty weird having a panel with a physical size of 16:9 with a 4:3 aspect ratio for the pixels.

    I started off thinking of a PWD7 with a seperate Crystalio scaler which I've not seen, but having seen an LG with DCDi in Curry's against the new Samsungs and Panasonics I preferred the LG, and after a bit of reading of these forums I see that Fujitsu do a set with DCDi. The Panny's and Samsung have a double image (an internal reflections about an inch back from the screen) which I find annoying, the LG doesn't have that. I noticed the Hitachi and Sony also have a slight double image but not as bad. The Fujitsu uses a Panny panel so presumeably that will also have the double image.

    The Pioneer was good, no double image, clean picture, good aspect ratio and seperate media box but looks like viewing a CRT through a net curtain, maybe their new models will improve on this.
     
  4. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Never noticed any double image? how far away were you when you saw this?

    I went to have a look at my mates new 50" Fujitsu the other night and it was alright, but compared with my HD6 panny and Crystalio I won't be swapping for that screen, which is a bonus and scratches another one off the list, may just pick up a 50" HD6/7 at some point if one comes up at the right price. The thing I like about the panny screens is they have an analogue look to them.
     
  5. GaryG

    GaryG
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    The double image is noticeable on high contrast pictures, white text on a black background for example at normal viewing distances. If you're off-axis it's noticeable, if you're looking head on it's not, I just find it annoying because I will be watching off-axis but wouldn't necessarily rule-out a panel because of it.

    Interesting that you're thinking of getting a 50", maybe I should just get a 50" HD7 with a Crystalio and be done with it, not sure that the new HD8 is going to offer enough to warrant waiting or to justify the extra cost. What res/frequency are feeding your panel?
     
  6. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I am feeding it 1024x768@50.16 for Pal and 1024x768@60.11 for ntsc.

    This gives a completely smooth image that amazes me all the time, sky is stunning at times, and the Philips 963 sdi is breathtaking and not far of some HD tapes.
     
  7. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Looks like I might end up with the same kit as you! Was debating selling my G98 for the 963 sdi option.

    Trouble is, when we start talking about 50" sets I can't help but feel this:
    http://www.be-direct.co.uk/productDetails.asp?id=18069
    is a good bet and stuff the external scaler but lose out on the 963 sdi option. Then again, maybe go for the Sammy with a Crystalio, you can see why my head is spinning!
     
  8. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    The 963/crystalio combo will blow the G98 out the water, I had a play with one over a weekend when I was deciding what to do with my 598Dp, in the end I went over to a 500MKII for red book and stopped thinking about trying to keep an M dvd player in the system.
     
  9. NonPayingMember

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    A plasma with DCDi built in is good, above average even. But it nothing, repeat nothing, compared to using the Crystalio or indeed any dedicated scaler into the screen. The DCDi bit is the same, but there loads of other functions within the scaler that are there purely to improve the image (correct 2:2/2:3/3:3 pulldown, fixing chroma and colour issues, more defined control of colour, contrast, gamma etc, higher quality scaling with less errors, Crystalio also adds truelife to the party). And hell yes on the Philips SDI! I've not seen better

    Also, if there are any willing forum members in your area I would try to get to see a properly setup Pioneer MXE1 running from a scaler, quite brilliant image and really not the grayish low contrast pic you would think.
     
  10. dilsher

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    i could never go back to a naked screen..no matter how good it is, adding a video processor is so much more better..right Liam mate??
     
  11. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Thanks for the confirmation on PQ. I only use the G98 for DVD so have no issue with parting with it.

    Thanks Liam, that's the sort of information I was looking for. I like the Pioneer panel, any idea on when the new version is likely to be available?

    As I understand it your panel has all the DCDi stuff built in, are you using an external scaler?
     
  12. dilsher

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    Hi Gary

    Yes it has mate..but we decided (no thanks to members here who love me spending my dosh) that although AVM2 is excellent..a video processor does SO much more!

    The panel is set up to disregard as much of the internal DCDi in the Fuji meaning hte scaler does most of the important work. Comapre one with and without scaler mate and yu will see a definite improvement.

    Buy with confidence Gary, and I know an MXE1 with a proper HDMI board is a cheaper but perhaps just as good a set up if you go down scaler route.
     
  13. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Thanks dilsher, just for clarification, if you're using an external scaler, what's left of the Fujitsu stuff over and above a Panny HD7 panel?
     
  14. dilsher

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    don't really know is the answer gary! Liam and Gordon set it all up and bugger me if i know which is doing what! I do know the HD7 has issues with HDCP i think....

    Oi Liam where are ya, ya lazy sod???

    PS my equipment is listed in my siggy..and i also have a fab philips 963 with SDI
     
  15. ukdan

    ukdan
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    This is what ive been told on this forum-
    (please correct me if im wrong)
    PHD7 cant do 720p or 1080i @ 50hz on hdmi, so no good for the upcoming skyhd. you can add a scaler to frame rate convert 50hz to 60hz but it will introduce judder.
    PHD8 due out sept/oct should solve this.
     
  16. dilsher

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    cheers Ukdan - thats it!
     
  17. GaryG

    GaryG
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    Are you saying that the Fujitsu has the HD8 panel?
     
  18. dilsher

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    the Fuji uses the HD7 glass panel .. afaik. The Panny glass is responsible for the deep blacks on the Fuji Gary...sorta but AVM2 is simnply better than Panny electronics IMHO
     
  19. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    From my experience the Fuji looks better than the panny panels when not using a scaler, however the panny and scaler combo is a fair bit better.
    I haven't seen the Fuji with a scaler so couldn't say if that was worth the extra but considering you seem to be paying more for the processing and scaling on the Fuji then it may be a false economy to go with the fuji if you are not going to take advantage of its abilities.
     
  20. NonPayingMember

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    It is a hard call, Fuji plus scaler or just panny plus scaler. With the Fuji you still have better connections, warranty, looks. Jury is out on reliability but I haven't had any flashing red LEDs yet!! If 60Hz conversion bugs you, you can always run HDTV direct to the Fuji HDMI and run scaler to the DVI which you can't with current pannys. But only a head to head with the same scaler will really tell who has implemented the glass better (my money would be on the Fuji, just) and who's processing gets in the way the least! The margin is getting closer though with new panels out later this year (Panny 8th gen, Pio 6th Gen), but there again Fujitsu have just announced a price drop effective tomorrow. £4,495 for 50".
     
  21. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    At £4.5k that is getting more tempting.

    I am not worried about the HDMI issue, I am going to transcode to component anyway, I just don't like the DVI on the Panny as much. But buying now it would be nice to have HDCP available at 50Hz.
     
  22. dilsher

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    or if youre extravangant like me - you just spend the extra on the Fuji regardless anyway! :smashin: :devil:

    the other thing of course is the quakity of your other hardware..go on, buy a wonderful 50 " and feed it a dodgy 100 squid Panny DVD player - it sucks big time then see???

    All about balance innit?
     
  23. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    But with the money you would have saved on a Panny you could have bought a Crystalio and had decent Pal deinterlacing! ;)

    (That was a joke by the way, before anyone says anything!)
     
  24. NonPayingMember

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    Me neither, plain compared to feeding RGBHV. Hence the question on the better implementation of the panel. Obviously processing is the big diff, but there are the finer points of build quality too.

    Crystalio + Panny = Macroblocking
    Lumagen + Fuji = Hooraah!!
     
  25. dilsher

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    agreed Liam... must admit looks aint sexy on a HD8 at all..yuch!

    giz

    good point but then again i seen the top notch Crystallio at a mates driving a Fuji 40 .. and it was not much to write home about on films..and Luma firmware updates are great so im never gona be behind the times with a Lumagen.
     
  26. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I was completely Joking, all combos have their positive and negative points, it was tongue in cheek.

    I could live with any of the scalers that are out there at the moment, but I couldn't go back to a screen without one.

    I don't know why I said go in via component I meant RGBhv, I have used RGBhv since the days of the Quadscan.
     
  27. dilsher

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    we know yu were Giz mate..its fun to argue tho!
     
  28. GaryG

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    In the cold light of day, a 50" Fujitsu is equivalent to 3 42" Lg plama's or an Action Model One projector!
     
  29. gizlaroc

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    Yeah and I know which one I would take. :)
     
  30. NonPayingMember

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    I'd be taking the Action model one...
     

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