Tv and wood burning stove dilema

[mgfredy]

Good morning

I have looked this question up in here and the general concensus is yes you can.

I am looking to install a 6k wood burner which will be inserted flush into our chimney breast. we are looking to get something like the westfire unique 32 picture I have attached of what this looks like. The issue is I have a 42 plasma above it with a my b and w fpm 1 centre speaker slighly below.

The chap in the fireplace showroom said to move tv and speaker as the stove will give off to much heat. The problem is there is no where else to put the tv.

I have attached a photograph of what it looks like know.

Any ideas of how to reduce heat I thought of putting in place a stone shelf but that would need pillars as supports and I am trying to keep the fire looking minimalistic if that makes sense.

Has anyone done this if so has the tv been affected and or what other ways are there to reduce the risk of heat damage to the tv and speaker.

I am looking to put all the av equipment in a cabinet to the left whats the best way to run the cables as the chimney breast will get incredibly hot channellig the wiring into the plaster is risky as the heat will be so strong.

On the off chance has anyone any experience of this type of fire/ recommend any other thoughts and finally any installers in the east midlands

Thanks in advance for your help.

James

 

[vidjo]

I'd give the TV a life of just a few weeks or maybe only days. It'll melt the plastics and fry the electronics unless you build a refrigerated box to seal the telly in. TV's don't like it above about 30C and your stove could have temperatures internally in excess of 300C. Frying tonight.

 

[mgfredy]

having looked at the replies in previous threads people have seemed to indicate ok if you have a mantle piece to deflect heat is this correct cheers

 

[Sanders79]

The flue temperatures will get up to about 400ºC (interior temperatures will get to thousands). Assuming the installation is done correctly, with vermiculite around the flue in the chimney breast, then that particular heat source won't be an issue, even for channeling cables into the wall (you wouldn't even go through the first skin of bricks, right?).

There is still the question of heat coming fron the front of the fire and the warm air rising to the TV. We have a 5KW wood burner with a mirror above. When fully fired up, the wall feels cool to touch and the heat rising to the front face of the chimney breast is minimal... because of the 12-inch thick solid oak mantel piece! It deflects the heat away and protects everything above. I would have no concerns about heat if i hung the TV there.

Regarding the centre speaker, could you put it above the TV? I would be reluctant to have it beneath the fire, hot embers can shoot out when you open the door, and imagine how filthy it can get when cleaning the fire out!

Where's SDI when you need him? He has probably encountered this before and will have some good ideas...

Hope this helps.

 

[mgfredy]

Thanks for that reply this seems to be the problem mixed messages from one extreme to the other - I would look to put the speaker above the TV thats no problems as you can see from the photographs theres plenty of room. Whose SDI great ideas sounds like something I need

 

[Sanders79]

Thanks for that reply this seems to be the problem mixed messages from one extreme to the other - I would look to put the speaker above the TV thats no problems as you can see from the photographs theres plenty of room. Whose SDI great ideas sounds like something I need

He's a regular on the DIY forum, a very experienced installer (rather than a humble DIYer like me)

 

[luckysim0n]

And he goes above and beyond to help

 

[benjani]

I have done this before and never had a problem with heat.

 

[The Dreamer]

What Sanders79 says,

we too have an inset multifuel stove. I cannot touch the stove itself when operating, but can comfortably keep my hand on the stonework immediately above it. We don't have a ledge or anything to stop the heat getting there, it just doesn't.

Inset stoves have gaps beneath and above the fire box, this is specifically to circulate air around the fire box (cool air sucked in at the bottom, and naturally expelled from the upper gap/vent), it provides a convection current of warm air into the room (not just the radiated heat from the fire itself). This current of warm air moves slightly away from the wall before rising though, hence the wall itself is cool-ish to the touch. Looking at the picture of your proposed stove, the vents are obvious, and will act as above.

Just for you, I've just been downstairs where our fire is running at full pelt (as we're waiting for a new boiler to be fitted, so is the only source of heat for now!) I've measured the temperature approximately 18 inches above the fire at the surface of the wall and it was just under 30 degrees. I tried to measure the temperature about a foot in front of the fire, but couldn't keep my hand there long enough for an accurate reading as the temperature gauge climbed through 50 degrees!

It'd be a rare thing for you to be running your fire at full pelt like we are at the moment I guess. Whilst we use the fire pretty much daily, it is mostly just topping up the heat from our central heating, allowing us to set a lower temperature for the rest of the house.

ps Just looked at a random TV manual (Samsung 46" LED) and checked the operating temperature range and it says 10-40 degrees, so around 30 should be fine. But might want to check the manual for your own TV!

 

[The Dreamer]

Oh, just another thought. Some cassette type inset stoves, such as the one you're looking at, have options of being fan-assisted. i.e. the convection process I mentioned previously being mechanically assisted by fans fitted somewhere around the firebox. This would obviously help deflect the hot air away from the wall further still.

Take a look at some of the Stovax stoves, I think some of theirs can be fan assisted.

And you're going to need some sort of hearth building underneath the fire too, can't remember what the specs have to be though.

HTH

 

[mgfredy]

Dreamer thank you very much for going to all the trouble thA u have along with everyone else it never fails to amaze me how helpful is on this forum

 

[S D I]

'The chap in the fireplace showroom said to move tv and speaker as the stove will give off to much heat'

'I'd give the TV a life of just a few weeks or maybe only days. It'll melt the plastics and fry the electronics unless you build a refrigerated box to seal the telly in.'

'Man in the pub said .......... BS. BS. BS. etc.'

May I retort?

Can't speak to the chap in the fireplace showroom but I am bound to ask Vidjo,
Exactly how many TV's have you fitted above a wood burning stove and how many have melted all over it?
Please upload pictures of said disasters while I would like to draw your attention to a lot of photo's I have uploaded across the forum showing the opposite.
I clearly remember the wood burners below TV's I attach pics of because I couldn't stop burning my hands on them!
The warm air rising in front of the TV's is a little higher than room temperature because there is obviously cooler air running along the floor rising in front of the fires to replace it.

Dreamer
understands radiated heat and convection and backs it up with a practical demonstration.
No asbestos gloves were worn in the making of his presentation as far as I can see.

mgfredy
so go ahead with confidence and common sense of course.
Your plans are totally reasonable.
Please don't hesitate to ask if you need any more info.

If anybody is mildly interested and can stand to read any more of my long boring posts I will let you know what happened when I did have a problem with heat on a particular false chimney breast/TV/fire combination in pictures attached and how I solved it.

Steve

 

[mgfredy]

Thanks for that very comprehensive update may ask what precussions if any were taken to prevent damage to the TVs when the fire was installed also do not suppose any of the installers were based near Leicestershire as looking for recommendation cheers

 

[S D I]

please don't take this the wrong way, it's just my opinion which is not important so who cares.

It's a great job but whilst your temperature tests are informative the aesthetics are terrible IMO.

This wood burner just doesn't fit and doesn't match anything in the room.
It looks very odd, even futuristic looking in a way, making such a statement with the big black semi circular hearth so far out from the wall.

The Sound bar cut into the beam is a good idea but again is sticking out far too much, I would have had 75% of
it inset into the wall showing around 50mm of the wood edges.

I uploaded a photo of one of our jobs in this thread with a wood burner and disliked that installation equally although it was a
little more palatable because it matched a black flush mount Pioneer TV and black Hi-Fi speakers.

I cannot see how this type of fire is ever going to look right in the context of an AV installation unless they are well back in the wall in a open fireplace.

This normally raises the position of the TV, another pet hate of mine, TV's above fireplaces per se.

I've done a few TBH. and only ever liked one because the fireplace was very low level.

Again please don't take offence just MHO.

regards

Steve

 

[benjani]

I agree totally with SDI.

It does not look right
Also to me, the skirting looks horrendous cut at angles. There is a number of finishes you could of done different.

1. Return the Taurus skirting leading edge pattern on its self as in 90 degree angle.
2. Run the skirting through so the fire hearth is butted up to it.

Said log burner would be more suited in a barn conversion in a large chimney opening.

Please do not take offence as it is my own opinion only.

BTW nice pics once again SDI.

 

[S D I]

Cheers Benjani, yep I forgot to mention skirting, I'm with you on that as well.

 

[S D I]

I consider myself now educated and admire your strict adherence to building regs.
Building regs also allow for a common sense approach in these scenarios and I find building control very helpful in
these cases.

However yours, your clients and my taste is are never going to converge and they don't need to of course.
Although customer is king I would have refused point blank to take the job on in this incarnation.

all the best

 

[Geps]

All this talk of the regs has piqued my interest - many on here will know when it comes to regs I tend to lead somewhat of a crusade against anyone that steps out of line. That said, they're typically regs I've worked with myself, and have passed inspections for which isn't the case for Part J.....but having taken a skimmed read through the regs Blaze Master, it seems, and I'm happy (I certainly have before!) to recant should I be wrong, that your installation there either breaches the regs.

Ok firstly the skirting, as that seems to be the "hot" topic between you and SDI. To recap the regs you posted state:

"2.28 Combustible material placed on or beside a constructional hearth should not extend under a superimposed hearth by more than 25mm or to closer than 150mm measured horizontally to the appliance"

Now when you look at the pictures, as the "stand" for the fireplace is set back from the rear wall of the fireplace, and it looks like the skirting height is less than the height of the stand, you can quite easily run skirting behind the fireplace without breaching the 150mm horizontal distance.

Secondly, that TV you've installed above it.

Now we have to get a couple of assumptions in here as I'm not going to rock up to your customers house with a tape measure and start measuring.
1) But you keep raising the distance of the wall as being kept to a minimum so I'm assuming you've got it as close to 150mm as you can.
2) I'm also assuming that the height of that TV is less than 1.2m, based on the height of the door handle which is typically 900mm from the floor on doors of that style (I've fitted a few before).
3) I'm assuming a plaster finish to be inkeeping with the rest of the room.

So with assumption 1 in place you can use diagram 30 of the regs (http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADJ_2010.pdf)

Where it states:

"Where the hearth abuts a wall and the appliance is more than 50mm but not more than 300mm from the wall"

the walls shall be made of solid, non-combustible material of a height:

"At least 300mm above the appliance and 1.2m above the hearth"

That would mean that the plaster finish would be deemed to be non-compliant, made worse by a large lump of wood (TV mount) that is then also in the 'hot zone'.

Thirdly, the regs refer to the permittable location of the CO alarm in 2.36b as being "between 1m and 3m horizontally from the appliance" - so the positioning of what looks like an alarm directly above the appliance would be in breach of the regs.

Finally, and not Part of Part J, is that Part P (Electrical Safety) regs refer to BS7671 for guidance rather than detail what is and isn't supported in the approved document. BS7671 however requires that the manufacturers' instructions are followed, and most of these I've read for TVs require that they aren't fitted above a fireplace. So whilst not in breach of regs, the onus would be on you to prove that what you did was safe and in the interests of the building regs. Realistically though the bigger problem is if the TV should become faulty (regardless of the location or otherwise) and the manufacturer sent out an engineer to repair it, it may cause implications in the validity of the warranty and a headache for your customers.

Personally, I couldn't care less what that install looks like - it's clearly to the customer's taste since they kept it and that's all that matters.

I'd ask you take this post however you want, just not as an attack. You posted a "this is how...." I just want to make sure the implications of the regs are established for anyone who finds this thread in the future when contemplating their install.

Regards,

 

[S D I]

As usual Geps, thank you for another well researched and informative post.

You normally catch me out, shall we say bending the rules so it's nice to see that maybe somebody else is not as informed as he thinks he is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, You the Man!!

 

[Geps]

Thanks SDI, but I do try not to catch anyone out. IMO this specific forum is for learning as much as 'how to do it correctly' as it is for showing works in progress. As I said in the cavity cable thread, by all means post the solutions that bend the rules but it helps everyone if that is acknowledged in the post rather that given as a carte blanche way to approach the problem.

There are far too many regs for any one person to remember in great detail, but they're there typically to force good design, preventing problems, so, as you know I'm quite happy to challenge anyone even professionals like yourself if I think something's amiss!

In cases like this, it's an extremely common problem that gets raised on here so asking BM to explain a couple of the points seems to be useful to everyone.

 

[S D I]

Keep up the good work Geps.

 

[John7]

Don't know about the regs but I sure couldn't watch a TV in that position with that furnace below searing my retinas!

 

[lynthan86]

I like it however shown my wife and she said " the tv is too small, all I would do is watch the fire! "

 

[lynthan86]

Wow that is distracting! I can imagine it's a lot better during daylight savings! ( still looks nice though ) Oh and I love marmite too

 

[alexs2]

Thread tidied.

BM needs to contact the advertising team as he is using his company name as his signature.

He also needs to read Rule 7,and not include links to his commercial activities within Youtube videos,without first obtaining advertising rights.

Also...both SDI and BM need to stop arguing.