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Turkey excludes evolution from textbooks

Stuart Wright

AVForums Founder
Staff member
Passions flare as Turkey excludes evolution from textbooks - BBC News
On Wednesday, the head of the education ministry's curriculum board Alpaslan Durmuş announced that a section on Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution would be excluded from biology textbooks in the ninth grade (14 and 15 year olds) from next year on.

Students are "too young to understand 'controversial subjects'", he said, adding that the topic will be delayed until undergraduate study.

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has already approved the proposed changes to the national curriculum, which are expected to be published next week after the Muslim Eid ending the fasting month of Ramadan.
The thing is, the 'threat' of Turkey entering the EU is one of the arguments made by the Brexit crowd to scare us into voting that way. Ridiculous.
I can't imagine Turkey is going to move forward enough to enter the EU any time soon. This is a huge backward step.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
The thing is, the 'threat' of Turkey entering the EU is one of the arguments made by the Brexit crowd to scare us into voting that way.
Don't you mean was?
Your post is very contradictory, you are criticising Turkey, but you are also criticising Brexiteers for not wanting to be in an EU with Turkey in it. :confused:

I think you need to take your remainer hat off and look at your post again.
 

Stuart Wright

AVForums Founder
Staff member
Don't you mean was?
Your post is very contradictory, you are criticising Turkey, but you are also criticising Brexiteers for not wanting to be in an EU with Turkey in it. :confused:

I think you need to take your remainer hat off and look at your post again.
Two points, really. 1. Bad that Turkey is going anti-science and pro-religion. And 2, reinforcing the stance that the brexit arguments had no merit. Using the argument that Turkey might join the EU as a way of scaring people into voting LEAVE. Another lie like the £350 million lie.
My remainer hat is staying firmly on. In hindsight, it was a catestrophic decision.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
We established ages ago that both campaigns lied through their teeth so there is no need to stir it up again.
Do you want Turkey to join the EU?
 
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IronGiant

Moderator
Another lie
Why is it a lie that Turkey might join the EU? They are in the process of doing so. Hopefully the backward thinking on evolution will hold up their membership even longer.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
My remainer hat is staying firmly on. In hindsight, it was a catestrophic decision.
I wasn't suggesting you stop being a remainer, just consider how irrelevant it is that Turkey suppressing evolution is to the Brexit process. You were portraying doom and gloom and catastrophe before the vote, how has hindsight changed that? :)

Like it or not, your membership is mostly comprised of Brexit voters:

upload_2017-6-24_22-36-52.png


Edit: and as you can see i voted Leave and the NHS slogan and Turkey never figured in my decision.
 

domtheone

Distinguished Member
Oooof. Moderator and Founder at loggerheads :D:D
 

IronGiant

Moderator
I would hope we are both posting as normal members :thumbsup:
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
I wasn't suggesting you stop being a remainer, just consider how irrelevant it is that Turkey suppressing evolution is to the Brexit process. You were portraying doom and gloom and catastrophe before the vote, how has hindsight changed that? :)

Like it or not, your membership is mostly comprised of Brexit voters:

View attachment 877583

Edit: and as you can see i voted Leave and the NHS slogan and Turkey never figured in my decision.

There are still quite a few of us around that think it was a serious and potentially catastrophic mistake, especially given the fact that we were still struggling after a recession.
The threads are full of Brexit supporters having a pop at the EU and at remainer's positions, opinions and observations - what is wrong with letting us make comments and express our take on what is going on ?

I may be totally wrong and stuck in my own little paranoid bubble, but I can't help but feel that essentially the 'atmosphere' regarding post Brexit has been one of jeer away and point score at the remainers while the Remainers them selves are expected to moaning and get onboard, get shouted down or admonished both in frequency and severity.

You may believe there is a gentle consensus amongst Leavers or 'we' have established that they don't subscribe to any of the more outrageous or disputable claims made prior to the referendum or since, but I believe that is wishful thinking and not at all representative of what some posters seem to post ..... yet any Remainers pointing out any inconsistancy seem to be labeled as just making trouble because we don't necessarily accept, follow or adhere to the the 'established We's' apologist position.

It seems like the left, liberals, remainers et al are fair game to be slagged off, riddiculed and represented as stereotypes while conservatives, leavers and the right are defended from any hint of stereotyping because it's unfair and unrepresentative.

Sorry for the rant, but I don't think I am the only one that has experienced or has that perception about the political atmosphere here, which is seemingly a microcosm of the political landscape in the UK and US atm.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
Two points, really. 1. Bad that Turkey is going anti-science and pro-religion. And 2, reinforcing the stance that the brexit arguments had no merit. Using the argument that Turkey might join the EU as a way of scaring people into voting LEAVE. Another lie like the £350 million lie.
My remainer hat is staying firmly on. In hindsight, it was a catestrophic decision.

That's pretty much the point (2) that I argued pre referendum, but some posters were turning into a scare story and pushing it as a reason to vote leave.
Turkey's political and social climate is incompatable with the EU and just keeps getting further away, diminishing their chance of getting in at least in our lifetimes.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
?? Its was only last year that Turkish citizens were granted Visa free travel to the EU

When was this ?

Afaik they failed the requirements .....

Update: Just checked and they didn't meet their end of the agreement so have NOT been granted Visa free travel to the EU as of yet.
 

Pacifico

Banned
When was this ?

Afaik they failed the requirements .....

Update: Just checked and they didn't meet their end of the agreement so have NOT been granted Visa free travel to the EU as of yet.

Sorry - you are correct, they are still talking. But even the offer of Visa free travel by the EU shows that Turkey and the EU are getting closer.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
Sorry - you are correct, they are still talking. But even the offer of Visa free travel by the EU shows that Turkey and the EU are getting closer.

Not really, it was more an indication of the EU trying to bargain with Turkey to take more responsibility for refuguees and immigrants using it as a jumping off spot to access the EU through it's borders and especially via the Mediterranean sea on rafts.

The deal was simply Visa free travel in the EU shengan area, not EU membership and not the right to work or settle.
For that, Turkey had to:
- strengthen it's border check points with the EU and provide better support and resources for refugees within Turkey with fiscal support from the EU to do so.
- meet a level of human rights adherence.

Turkey dramatically failed to address the human rights issues raised by the EU and in fact has been behaving worse than before due to a shift towards increasing theocratic influence at the expense of secularism.
This increasingly theocratic influence is highlighted by amongst other things, the OP's reference to the Governments removal of the teaching of Evolution from 14 - 15yr olds.
 
D

Deleted member 27989

Guest
In a warped way this really isn't that surprising. But I do think we should look closer to home as well. Yes my daughters go to a voluntary aided religion supported school in the UK. And yes evolution is of course on the curriculum. However any kind of debate in context of religion and the contradictions are strongly discouraged (I'm being British now ;)). It really angers me. I'm sure it can't just be those two schools that I have direct experience with. I also find it hard to believe it is limited to that religion. I'm sure it will be even worse in other areas.

So in a way, we really shouldn't be passing that test either...and other than lip service aren't really squeaky clean to point the finger at others.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
In a warped way this really isn't that surprising. But I do think we should look closer to home as well. Yes my daughters go to a voluntary aided religion supported school in the UK. And yes evolution is of course on the curriculum. However any kind of debate in context of religion and the contradictions are strongly discouraged (I'm being British now ;)). It really angers me. I'm sure it can't just be those two schools that I have direct experience with. I also find it hard to believe it is limited to that religion. I'm sure it will be even worse in other areas.

So in a way, we really shouldn't be passing that test either...and other than lip service aren't really squeaky clean to point the finger at others.

Quite a few members on here as well as organisations and groups in society have been vociferously arguing against these exceptions and exemptions from the law and regulations, especially with regards to education and employment.
It's an uphill battle however, since it is hindered at every turn by those that may well support secularism or limiting religious influence and exceptions for other or specific religions, still defend and support legislation or are appologists for their own or more familiar beliefs.
Prime examples are the general agreed arguments that that one specific religion is misogynistic, homophobic and wants to teach ideas that are contrary to the general ideals of our society, but at the same time, a number of those attacking that religion dismiss, downplay or defend the rights of for example Christian organisations (since we are UK centric) to enact those same prejudices in terms of what they teach, who they admit and employ.

The situation at present means not only are we handicapped and severely restricted in attempting to deal with prejudice and fundamental beliefs, but as a society and a nation, we are open to accusations of hypocrisy, which gives fuel to those arguing against us.

It's like parents who get upset, angry and protest when you seem to be interfering in their childrens behaviour or discipline, but complain and expect other parents to be admonished and their children repremanded for being annoying.
 

Stuart Wright

AVForums Founder
Staff member
I wasn't suggesting you stop being a remainer, just consider how irrelevant it is that Turkey suppressing evolution is to the Brexit process. You were portraying doom and gloom and catastrophe before the vote, how has hindsight changed that? :)
I haven't mentioned the Brexit process. Turkey is, of course, not relevant to the process. Turkey was used by the leave campaigners as a bogus argument for leaving. Both the leave and remain campaigns were piss poor.

I would hope we are both posting as normal members :thumbsup:
We are.
Evolution is as much of a fact as gravitational theory and germ theory and is used as the cornerstone of the practical medicinal solutions we and the creationists enjoy. It's the only explanation that holds up for the diversity of life, is supported by overwhelming evidence and is actually not that hard to understand. It's extremely frustrating that the religious nutters controlling Turkey's educational curriculum will be stunting the advancement of their youth.
No, I don't think Turkey should join the EU. I think they are culturally too different. Or at least the leaders are.
Although it won't affects us that much either way, I guess.
Can't see myself choosing to holiday in Turkey again while their government is so extreme.
 

Solomon Grundy

Distinguished Member
I'm boycotting the local kebab shop too. Everyone should do the same, that'll fix it.
 

Sonic67

Banned
I voted to leave as I wanted the UK to have sovereignty, not have to shell out £10 billion, didn't like the way the EU was going and a lot of other reasons.

A shame the EU did blow a lot of our money at Turkey when you see what it has become though.

Weren't we also told by the remain side how devasted our economy would be as a reason not to leave?
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Weren't we also told by the remain side how devasted our economy would be as a reason not to leave?

Do you really need reminding that we've not left yet?

At the very least, the pound took an absolute hammering and hasn't really recovered (we could argue this is a 'good' thing of course, but I don't remember any supporting Brexit suggesting a weak £ would be great for Britain).

OT - the evolution thing shows how far Turkey are from being a normal European country. But you only have to look a little closer to home for some diabolical, archaic attitudes towards religion and abortion etc - at least the British Government isn't trying to form a government with the Turks :)
 

Sonic67

Banned
Do you really need reminding that we've not left yet?
No.

Do you really need reminding what we were told just a vote to leave would do?

EU referendum: Brexit 'would spark year-long recession' - Treasury - EU referendum: Brexit 'would spark year-long recession' - Treasury - BBC News

At the very least, the pound took an absolute hammering and hasn't really recovered (we could argue this is a 'good' thing of course, but I don't remember any supporting Brexit suggesting a weak £ would be great for Britain).
I don't remember Bremain saying it would happen or that it would be bad for Britain.

OT - the evolution thing shows how far Turkey are from being a normal European country. But you only have to look a little closer to home for some diabolical, archaic attitudes towards religion and abortion etc - at least the British Government isn't trying to form a government with the Turks :)
A change of leader and it could be all change again.
 

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