Trinnov v Lyngdorf

Stuart3892

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In a high-end system, what are the key reasons you’d choose one over the other (say Altitude 16 v MP-60)?

From what I have read, Room Perfect is a positive over the Trinnov system?
Trinnov will have a (free?) upgrade to HDMI 2.1?
Trinnov has more expansion options for more speakers?
Presumably they each have their own unique sound so some people will prepare one over the other.
What else would you include in the relative pros and cons for each side?
 
Trinnov owners will say the trinnov is better

Lyngdorf owners will say the Lyngdorf is better.

RP isn’t better than the optimiser. Easier to setup, yes, but nowhere near as adjustable, which can result in incredible results, or, if you don’t know what you’re doing, average results.

Trinnov is likely to be more future proof, they’ve just announced that owners over 5 years can subscribe to a new 5 year warranty getting their unit up to date with all of the latest specs.

Both processors have many strengths and very few weaknesses.

I had an MP50 for a couple of weeks but returned it and got a trinnov, I’d never change to anything else as it’s simply incredible and easily the best sounding processor I’ve ever heard.....but this is in my room with my speakers.

I would doubt very much that the hdmi 2.1 upgrade will be free.
 
Trinnov owners will say the trinnov is better

Lyngdorf owners will say the Lyngdorf is better.

RP isn’t better than the optimiser. Easier to setup, yes, but nowhere near as adjustable, which can result in incredible results, or, if you don’t know what you’re doing, average results.

Trinnov is likely to be more future proof, they’ve just announced that owners over 5 years can subscribe to a new 5 year warranty getting their unit up to date with all of the latest specs.

Both processors have many strengths and very few weaknesses.

I had an MP50 for a couple of weeks but returned it and got a trinnov, I’d never change to anything else as it’s simply incredible and easily the best sounding processor I’ve ever heard.....but this is in my room with my speakers.

I would doubt very much that the hdmi 2.1 upgrade will be free.

OK, I’m no expert and just piecing together various bits of information that I’ve read (but maybe not fully understood)!

if you’ll excuse the analogy, I guess that you’re either a Porsche person or a Ferrari person, with in-built biases, conscious or otherwise.

I do understand that the amp is only one part of the system, and set-up is crucial! Glad you are pleased with your system, finding somewhere that has both to trial would be helpful.
 
OK, I’m no expert and just piecing together various bits of information that I’ve read (but maybe not fully understood)!

if you’ll excuse the analogy, I guess that you’re either a Porsche person or a Ferrari person, with in-built biases, conscious or otherwise.

I do understand that the amp is only one part of the system, and set-up is crucial! Glad you are pleased with your system, finding somewhere that has both to trial would be helpful.

@Seriously Ltd have both on demo.

But yeah, definitely comparable to the car analogy.

A few trinnov owners have moved from Lyngdorf, might be worth going through the owners thread and PM as to why they moved......
 
@Seriously Ltd have both on demo.

But yeah, definitely comparable to the car analogy.

A few trinnov owners have moved from Lyngdorf, might be worth going through the owners thread and PM as to why they moved......

Many thanks.

At the moment I’m just trying to do as much research as possible as my home cinema room project is still at stage zero, pending planning permission etc! I want to be reasonably informed and in a position to take things forward quickly before I think about demos etc.
I thought the forum was a good way of doing this without wasting anyone’s time!
 
Uh oh, not long until the Lyngdorf police will arrive. 😂

Room Perfect isn't a full room correction system. It's low frequency smoothing, period. If that works for you or not is a different story. The myth of preserving sound of the speaker is only that, a myth. The sound of a speaker can only be heard in a anechoic chamber. The room will influence the sound you get from your speaker. Room Perfect is much more user friendly than Trinnov, it's a end-user solution. Push a button and you're done. Trinnov requires either very skilled enthusiasts or professionals (most often not the dealers selling it) to dial it in properly (additional costs to consider, contact Adam Pelz).

Why would Trinnov offer a free HDMI 2.1 upgrade? The 2.0 board will have some features from 2.1, but if you want full 2.1, then you'll have to pay for the upgrade.

Trinnov Altitude 16 is limited to 16 channels, so is the MP-60. If you want more channels, the Altitude 32 is your choice offering up to 32 channels. If that's still not enough, add a Ext48 to the Altitude 32.

Trinnov doesn't "sound" and that's the point of it. The amount of filters and tuning options allows you to make your speakers sound the way you like it. Own JBL speakers and want them to sound like Procella, do it. Own Procella and want to make them sound like JBL? Do it. You're only limited by the physical capabilities of the speakers. Trinnovs optimizer is light-years ahead of the competition, allowing fine tuning no other manufacturer can... except Dolby Lake processors. Lake processors allow more filters than Trinnov (although I've never seen anyone run out of filters possible). The filters in the Trinnov add a minimum of 20ms latency. Less for the Lake which is 1ms, but it depends on the number of filters and what type. This shouldn't be a problem, but might depending on what you do. I only know of a few absolute high-end installations using the Lake processors in addition to a Trinnov. Trinnov is then used for decoding only, tuning with the Lakes. If you look at Rob Hahns theater featured in several publications, he's using an additional 11 Lake processors (tuning) in addition to a Altitude 32 (decoding). The Lake processors add another $45k to the overall price.

These are really two different beasts. Trinnov is the only manufacturer offering remapping for non-optimal speaker positions. They're the only ones who actually do decoding and processing all in software. All other manufacturers use DSP solutions they buy from a 3rd party. So Lyngdorf, Storm, Denon, etc. all have the same decoder chips, but different room correction implementations.

Software based solutions allow you to receive free software updates, where with DSP based solutions you will have to buy new hardware.

See it this way, you want a simple end user solution you take home, press a button and get the best out of that solution... get the Lyngdorf. You want endless tweakability, have tons of options to make things sound exactly like you want and are willing to pay for it, then the Trinnov is really a no-brainer. If you want/need features such as above mentioned remapping, then it's game over anyway. No other options available anywhere: https://www.trinnov.com/PDF/AES6375_Reproducing_Multichannel_Sound_on_any_Speaker_Layout.pdf
 
Uh oh, not long until the Lyngdorf police will arrive. 😂

Room Perfect isn't a full room correction system. It's low frequency smoothing, period. If that works for you or not is a different story. The myth of preserving sound of the speaker is only that, a myth. The sound of a speaker can only be heard in a anechoic chamber. The room will influence the sound you get from your speaker. Room Perfect is much more user friendly than Trinnov, it's a end-user solution. Push a button and you're done. Trinnov requires either very skilled enthusiasts or professionals (most often not the dealers selling it) to dial it in properly (additional costs to consider, contact Adam Pelz).

Why would Trinnov offer a free HDMI 2.1 upgrade? The 2.0 board will have some features from 2.1, but if you want full 2.1, then you'll have to pay for the upgrade.

Trinnov Altitude 16 is limited to 16 channels, so is the MP-60. If you want more channels, the Altitude 32 is your choice offering up to 32 channels. If that's still not enough, add a Ext48 to the Altitude 32.

Trinnov doesn't "sound" and that's the point of it. The amount of filters and tuning options allows you to make your speakers sound the way you like it. Own JBL speakers and want them to sound like Procella, do it. Own Procella and want to make them sound like JBL? Do it. You're only limited by the physical capabilities of the speakers. Trinnovs optimizer is light-years ahead of the competition, allowing fine tuning no other manufacturer can... except Dolby Lake processors. Lake processors allow more filters than Trinnov (although I've never seen anyone run out of filters possible). The filters in the Trinnov add a minimum of 20ms latency. Less for the Lake which is 1ms, but it depends on the number of filters and what type. This shouldn't be a problem, but might depending on what you do. I only know of a few absolute high-end installations using the Lake processors in addition to a Trinnov. Trinnov is then used for decoding only, tuning with the Lakes. If you look at Rob Hahns theater featured in several publications, he's using an additional 11 Lake processors (tuning) in addition to a Altitude 32 (decoding). The Lake processors add another $45k to the overall price.

These are really two different beasts. Trinnov is the only manufacturer offering remapping for non-optimal speaker positions. They're the only ones who actually do decoding and processing all in software. All other manufacturers use DSP solutions they buy from a 3rd party. So Lyngdorf, Storm, Denon, etc. all have the same decoder chips, but different room correction implementations.

Software based solutions allow you to receive free software updates, where with DSP based solutions you will have to buy new hardware.

See it this way, you want a simple end user solution you take home, press a button and get the best out of that solution... get the Lyngdorf. You want endless tweakability, have tons of options to make things sound exactly like you want and are willing to pay for it, then the Trinnov is really a no-brainer. If you want/need features such as above mentioned remapping, then it's game over anyway. No other options available anywhere: https://www.trinnov.com/PDF/AES6375_Reproducing_Multichannel_Sound_on_any_Speaker_Layout.pdf

Some food for thought there, thanks.
 
Room Perfect isn't a full room correction system. It's low frequency smoothing, period.

Nothing like opening with an incorrect statement
 
I was hoping I could get some information about the pros and cons of both manufacturers, not start an argument!

Even a Ferrari owner can appreciate a Porsche and vice versa - it‘s not necessarily better or worse, just different, and suited to different requirements.
 
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Nothing like opening with an incorrect statement
Great, then please explain to us how to create a FIR filter in the 5kHz to 10kHz range in Room Perfect. I'd also be curious to hear about how RP handles high order IIR filters and the quantisation of the coefficients in relation to it's internal sampling rate and what that means for filter accuracy. Please don't hesitate to get technical with all the theory required to cover the topic.
 
Great, then please explain to us how to create a FIR filter in the 5kHz to 10kHz range in Room Perfect. I'd also be curious to hear about how RP handles high order IIR filters and the quantisation of the coefficients in relation to it's internal sampling rate and what that means for filter accuracy. Please don't hesitate to get technical with all the theory required to cover the topic.

Please do so on another, more relevant, thread.
:thumbsup:
 
I was hoping I could get some information about the pros and cons of both manufacturers, not start an argument!

Even a Ferrari owner can appreciate a Porsche and vice versa - it‘s not necessarily better or worse, just different, and suited to different requirements.

honeslty mate, very unlikely on here, lots of pre owners trying to justify their spend.

I was trying to be as diplomatic as possible. What works for one person might not be better for another.

best thing is to try and message people who have owned both systems to get their thoughts.....
 
I was hoping I could get some information about the pros and cons of both manufacturers, not start an argument!
Arguments are always a part for it. ;)

I think it really boils down to this:
- Software-based platform vs DSP based
- The amount of flexibility you get for tuning

The latter opens a new can of worms. What do you want and what do you need?


In the end, what you pay for is the whole package. Inputs, decoding, further processing incl. room correction and then the output stage. A manufacturers own software and implementation is what ramps the price up. Here's another thought, use an external room correction, either in a DSP speaker or an external box. Disable any type of processing except for decoding and output and I bet you won't be able to hear a difference between these processors. I'm even gonna go one step further, the Emotiva and Monoprice processor analogue stage measure better than both Lyngdorf and Trinnov. Doing the same there, just using them as decoders with external RC, I'd be surprised if you can hear a difference (their software is pretty buggy and not very good in my opinion, though, but bypassing it is a solution). You can also do this in the digital domain, with Dante, AVB and AES.

Another thing you might consider, if you have multiple systems, say living room and theatre, Trinnov allows you to use one processor for two rooms. At least that is true for the Altitude 32. I'm not sure on the A16, maybe someone else knows. I've not seen that option on the Lyngdorf, but maybe I missed it or they added it later on.

Keep in mind none of these processors is perfect. I'd always start with requirements, then what would be nice to have and based on that make a decision with further factors such as price.
 
Great, then please explain to us how to create a FIR filter in the 5kHz to 10kHz range in Room Perfect. I'd also be curious to hear about how RP handles high order IIR filters and the quantisation of the coefficients in relation to it's internal sampling rate and what that means for filter accuracy. Please don't hesitate to get technical with all the theory required to cover the topic.


No problem - read the original paper on the design of RP
 
No problem - read the original paper on the design of RP
Thank you, read that paper and the patent multiple times in the past. Proves my point. RP is a system based on smoothing with limited gain adjustment to a transfer function. This was also the take-away during discussions with Jan Pederson during shows where he showed off RP and explained how it works (not revealing some things, which are still kept secret). Since the OP asked to stay on topic for pros/cons and there are already plenty discussions on other forums about how RP and the Trinnov Optimizer work, I'm going to do that. :)
 
@Stuart3892 Very simple to sort out. Go demo them at @Seriously Ltd it is, to my knowledge the only place you can do this in Europe right now and Richard's demo facilities are in St. Albans.

Regardless of what does what, only the end sound to the end user is important, which would be you. Decide for yourself.
 
@Stuart3892 Very simple to sort out. Go demo them at @Seriously Ltd it is, to my knowledge the only place you can do this in Europe right now and Richard's demo facilities are in St. Albans.

Regardless of what does what, only the end sound to the end user is important, which would be you. Decide for yourself.

Thanks - I agree that’s the ultimate way of deciding between the two. But I think it’s good to have a good understanding of the pros and cons before getting to that stage!
 
OK one is automatic and hassle free - I have two Lyngdorf amps and can contest to the fact that RP gives excellent results in both of my rooms.
 
Proves my point. RP is a system based on smoothing with limited gain adjustment to a transfer function. . :)
That is at best a very over-simplified view of RP, completely ignoring the use of random room measurements, the way this is used to estimate more correct room gain and set filter targets accounting for this, the "secret" in the papers that suggests that the combined set of measurements are used to estimate the off-axis response/directivety of the speakers, etc. Also the sub+main integration with RP works very differently from other RC systems, correcting the steady-state actual integration between each speaker and sub. And exactly what do you mean by "based on smoothing"??

Still, personally I should have bought a Trinnov now that it has become a bit cheaper, as I love tweaking and of course you can do better if you have full control and understand the measurements. Also it is true that the filters applied in RP are not very fancy (simple FIR filters), and I think the fact that it lacks any kind of time domain correction is no longer state-of-the-art, c.f. Audiolense or Trinnov for that matter. But I think RP works very well, and probably better than the alternatives, for a large majority of users who wants plug and play.
 
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here we go again......Simple answer is both great processors.

however if you want to spend hours(possibly days or weeks) on end tweaking and twiddling, read thick user manuals, email the manufacturer for support and achieve a great result, possibly in some circumstances better than room perfect,get the trinnov

if you want to fit and forget, after an hour or two of set up, and achieve a great result, possibly in some circumstances better than trinnov, get the lyngdorf

Dealer demo generally a waste of time unless in your room at home set up correctly to properly assess
 
however if you want to spend hours(possibly days or weeks) on end tweaking and twiddling, read thick user manuals, email the manufacturer for support and achieve a great result, possibly in some circumstances better than room perfect,get the trinnov
As I've said before, this is just the price to pay. Ultimate flexibility, get the Trinnov. Push a button and be done, Lyngdorf. The latter is much more user friendly.
Just look at this post over on the other forum: Trinnov Altitude

Dealer demo generally a waste of time unless in your room at home set up correctly to properly assess
It might give you a rough idea, but in general I agree. Best to get both over a few weeks for a home demo. Or just buy both and sell the one you don't like.
 
agreed....dare I say it that you may need a pro calibrator to get the best out the lyngdorf....similar to projectors really. also not sure how many experienced trinnov calibrators there are in the uk
 
dare I say it that you may need a pro calibrator to get the best out the lyngdorf
Anyone who spends that sort of money on AV kit and doesn't have a professional help them set it up and build their understanding of what they've bought falls firmly into the 'more money than sense' category in my view!** At least to get started.

Yes, RP is 'easy' to use but I've no doubt an experienced head would improve the sound from my 1120 and help me get the best out of it. (before anyone asks, yes I've got one booked in but lockdown, etc.)

Does that then render the 'ease' of RP redundant to a degree?

**With the notable exceptions of course, of those like @mb3195 et al who know what they are doing!
 
Agree...with the caveat that the lyngdorf is the one processor which you do not need help to set up-it really is easy. And that appeals as if you are not keen on arduous time consuming set ups and experimentation...
 

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