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Trinnov ST2 HiFi vs Lyngdorf RP

indus

Distinguished Member
Firstly apologies if this is in the wrong section. Wasn't sure if this should be here or under hifi section.

Secondly apologies because I'll have to do this in stages as I won't have time to do it in one sitting (job, wife, kids etc!)

I've used Lyngdorf RP software for many many years now and it's given me many hours of listening pleasure. I use a legacy product called the Lyngdorf RP1. I've attached a picture below. It's about the size of a TDAI product but has no amp or volume control and cannot take digital inputs. It's a solid piece of kit and weighs much more than the TDAI units
20190323_092910.jpg


The reason I bought it? The space where my hifi is situated is an acoustical nightmare. It's an open plan kitchen/living room which measures 8.5m by 8.5m, high ceilings, tiled floor, hard work surfaces and one whole wall of glass.

I use a valve preamplifier made by Audio Research. It's an old one and entry level, LS17. For those that don't know AR make some of the most highly rated preamps in the world which regularly achieve reference status awards from a multitude of reviewers.
I absolutely adore it and when funds allow I'll move further up the chain

20190323_092853.jpg


My sources are a Simaudio MOON CDT and a Simaudio Neo 380D streaming DAC. Beautifully engineered kit!

20190323_092848.jpg


And finally my speakers. Award winning Monitor Audio PL300, an absolute beast imho and betters many speakers that cost a lot more.

20190323_093817.jpg


20190323_093837.jpg


And finally here is the Trinnov ST2 HiFi and it's funky patented microphone.

20190323_093918.jpg


20190323_111355.jpg


Apologies but that's it for now. I'll update as soon as I can and explain what I compared with what and why.
 

indus

Distinguished Member
Have you thought about also trying the DSpeaker Anti-mode X4?

Hi
To be honest I never knew that existed. I didn't realise dspeaker were now making such elaborate devices.
It looks very interesting.
 

indus

Distinguished Member
About six months ago I trialed the TDAI 2170, at the time my power amp was a Lyngdorf SDA 2175 (first image) It's an absolute beast of an amp. I now run Bel Canto mono blocs,(second image) probably a bit of a waste of money I think as the SDA 2175 did such a good job at a fraction of the price!

20190323_105348.jpg



20190323_092921.jpg


So I compared my existing system ie Simaudio DAC into Lyngdorf RP1 into Audio Research Preamp into Lyngdorf SDA 2175

against

The Lyngdorf TDAI 2175

The theory being that by limiting the AD and DA conversions the TDAI might sound better. To be honest I didn't need it to sound better. Even if it sounded just as good it would be a no brainer purchase. I would be able to sell my dac, pre, RP1 and power amps for more than the purchase price of the TDAI and drastically reduce my box count.

One thing struck me though even before I listened. How can they squeeze all the goodness that is in the heavy RP1 and even heavier SDA 2175 into one box that weighs less than either of them? Technological progress!

Anyway, I ran the RP calibration which I was very familiar with and did some listening. It sounded good and the linear volume control was a pleasure to use. As it's a digital control it's very different in this respect to my analogue preamp. In the latter this aspect of the volume control isn't as precise ie it jumps up and down in larger increments and so getting just the right volume can sometimes be a pain in the butt.

I listened for about a week and was happy with what I was hearing, played around with voicings but to be honest I've never really liked them. Source was CD via the Moon CDT and high res streaming from Tidal

I then swapped back to my existing system and suddenly realised what I had been missing. My existing system sounded very noticeably better. There was more depth, better separation of instruments and a much wider and more holographic sound stage. These might sound like audiofool terms but it's the only way I can describe what I was hearing.

And I don't have golden ears, I only notice fairly significant changes. As an example more recently I 'upgraded' my SDA 2175 amp to the Bel Canto mono blocs at much cost, and to be honest I don't think I can hear a difference!

To be fair it was a tall order for the TDAI to better my existing system. I know cost doesn't always equate to performance but you also don't get anything for free in life. My existing system had an original rrp of over £10k.

The TDAI put in a respectable performance. For the price it's a great piece of kit and makes much sense for anybody who wants RP correction and a small box count. It would have been nice to figure out which part of the TDAI was the weak link ie DAC, preamp/volume control, power amp section etc. However as the TDAI doesn't allow you to use an external dac or preamp with it this was impossible. My guess is the preamp/volume control, but it's just a guess.

Next time I'll actually get to the Trinnov vs RP.
 

anjan

Active Member
Interesting thread.

I have a Lyngdorf TDAI 3400. There is a significant improvement in audio quality using an external DAC. I use Roon with one of two endpoints - Metrum Ambre or 3400.

Qobuz/ Roon to Metrum Ambre connected using optical to Denafrips Terminator connected to 3400 analog

vs

Qobuz/ Roon to 3400 directly

There is an obvious improvement with the Metrum/ Terminator combination for most kinds of music. I have tried a blind test on an 'audiophile' friend who also noticed a significant consistent improvement.

So I do suspect the DAC may be a weak link in the TDAI3400
 

indus

Distinguished Member
There are so many features here that it's difficult to get through all of them. Here are some screen shots. This is the home page
Trinnov1.png



Trinnov2.png


Trinnov3.png


You can store up to 29 presets

Trinnov4.png


When you launch the optimiser you can choose your set up ie with or without subs

Trinnov5.png


As I said, the number of parameters that can be changed and measured is mind boggling. I won't pretend I understand all of them!

Trinnov6.png


Trinnov8.png


More in just a few seconds as there is a limit to images per post iirc
 

indus

Distinguished Member
Trinnov9.png


I particularly like this which measures your speakers positions so you can correct any malpositioning if it wasn't intentional
Trinnov11.png


Trinnov10.png


It even measures the elevation and azimuth

Trinnov12.png




Trinnov13.png


Trinnov14.png



Trinnov15.png



Back in a few minutes
 

indus

Distinguished Member
Despite it looking complicated the set up was a doddle. The measurement process took less than 5 minutes. You can take more than one mic position measurement and also decide how much weighting to give those additional positions.

The Trinnov comes with 5 basic 'curves' ie neutral, comfort, natural (follows the natural characteristics of your speaker to a greater degree), monitoring etc.

Unfortunately whoever had the demo unit before me had messed around with the house curves. It seems a bit silly that these can be over written! So I used the flat curve in 'monitoring' and worked from there. The monitoring curve itself was highly accurate and detailed by lacked bass weight.

Adjusting the curve is a doddle, much easier than with dirac. I just added a bit more bass and rolled off the high end which is the natural character of my speaker

So how does it sound? Simply put to my ears it sounds fantastic. Everything just falls into place. The bass has never had so much weight but complete control. The soundstage is huge, nothing sounds congested, every detail comes through, every instrument sounds natural rather than digital. I'm no musician but I can now hear decay on piano notes, something I had read about but never quite understood.
A tune I know well that has a section of acoustic guitar sounded completely different. I could make out every reverb of the string. Voices in particular sound much more natural and realistic.

And one of the other high points is that my speakers have now completely disappeared and I mean completely. No matter how hard I stare at the speakers and try and locate a sound coming from either of them I can't. Room Perfect did this to some extent as well but nothing like this. If RP did this with 60% effectiveness then Trinnov does it with 100%

So all in all it sounds pretty damn fantastic.

But as I'm a cynic at heart and given how expensive it is I will do one final test. I'll put the RP back in and spend a few days with that again just to confirm that my mind isn't playing tricks on me. Or that the Trinnov has improved some things but made other things worse

Thanks for reading and sorry this has taken so long.


I forgot to mention that you can limit which frequencies are corrected very easily, ie if you believe it's better to leave the higher frequencies alone

Trinnov 18.png
 
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indus

Distinguished Member
I forgot to mention, my speakers definitely still sound like my speakers but better! They don't sound like a Bose cube or an electrostatic or anything else for that matter :D
 
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themovierooms

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Nice write up Indus. One of the big things the Trinnov does is properly correct for phase after the sound has left the speaker which is quite mind boggling.

The ST2 and Amethyst are unique at the moment in having the set-up wizard which makes things a whole lot easier, although as we had discussed you still need to go into the back end to really adjust to your preferred sound. Im told a set-up wizard for the Altitude is coming on the next software update.

When I had this at home it made an astonishing difference to the sound, as it should. One of the main things I also agree with is that it complemented my Audio Research and Harbeth's rather than annihilating the character I valued, it was very sympathetic.
 

Steve413

Distinguished Member
@indus, is it too early for you to know which you prefer? RoomPerfect or Trinnov's Room correction.
 

Mark.Yudkin

Distinguished Member
I forgot to mention, my speakers definitely still sound like my speakers but better! They don't sound like a Bose cube or an electrostatic or anything else for that matter :D
Sounds like you need to give the second option a try. :)
 

indus

Distinguished Member
@indus, is it too early for you to know which you prefer? RoomPerfect or Trinnov's Room correction.
Hi Steve
It's almost definitely the Trinnov. On first listening it sounded much better in all regards. The only reason I say almost definitely is because I think it's always sensible to go back and listen to your existing piece of equipment to confirm.
We all know the mind can play some strange tricks on you sometimes when auditioning equipment.

But from what I've heard so far I can't think of a single thing it's not improving compared to RP, and I haven't really tinkered yet either.

Cheers
 

doorofnight

Member
Interestesting thread, and I think people like to know more (objective) information.

Do you have some REW measurements of both setups? And why exactly do you like Trinnov more?
How many DAC/ACD do you have with RP-1 and with Trinnov?

I've used Lyngdorf RP for many years, but I've treated my room, and now I use minidsp for the subwoofers only and my amp for the crossovers. No RC/DSP for my fronts. I believe this sounds better.

One of the big things the Trinnov does is properly correct for phase after the sound has left the speaker which is quite mind boggling.
And impossible? BTW we are not sensitive to phase-shifts. We cannot hear them. I am not sure what you mean by "correct phase""?
 

mattkhan

Distinguished Member
I am not sure what you mean by "correct phase"
Excess phase correction which exists to move each speaker closer to a perfectly minimum phase response (or at least that is the usual goal rather than a linear phase response).

The issue is not whether we are sensitive to absolute phase shifts but whether we are sensitive to relative phase differences (which we are... given that this is part of how our brains deals with localisation). People often comment that such speakers are less fatiguing and/or have improved detail resolution which is consistent with the above.

Of course, that such an effect has a real mechanism by which it could have an audible effect doesn't mean to say that it is audible in practice or is anything but a small effect. This is something you would have to test for yourself (easy enough to do in a PC).

IME this correction is more valuable for speakers which are less than well behaved in the first place.
 
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indus

Distinguished Member
Interestesting thread, and I think people like to know more (objective) information.

Do you have some REW measurements of both setups? And why exactly do you like Trinnov more?
How many DAC/ACD do you have with RP-1 and with Trinnov?

I've used Lyngdorf RP for many years, but I've treated my room, and now I use minidsp for the subwoofers only and my amp for the crossovers. No RC/DSP for my fronts. I believe this sounds better.



And impossible? BTW we are not sensitive to phase-shifts. We cannot hear them. I am not sure what you mean by "correct phase""?

Hi
No, I didn't measure with REW, I didn't feel the need. In a 2 channel set up with music it's usually quite easy to hear the differences, if the differences exist.

In terms of AD DA steps there are identical amounts in both set ups.

I think the Trinnov does potentially allow me to reduce these in the future because unlike my RP1 it has a digital input and output and my DAC has a digital monitor loop made specifically for RC devices.

So I could go
Digital output from DAC to digital input of Trinnov then digital output of Trinnov back to my DAC. My DAC would then perform the one and only D to A conversion.
I haven't had time to sort this out.

The reasons I prefer the Trinnov?

1) Better bass response. It has more weight but without sounding bloated or distorted. I can follow the nuances of some basslines which with RP just sounded like a single note.
I listen to a lot of bass heavy EDM so this is of particular importance to me.

2) Separation and detail. Soundstage is bigger, I can hear nuances in vocals and instruments. Vocals in particular sound better.

3) Speakers seem to have completely disappeared. Nothing seems to come from the boxes, all sounds are between them. My speakers are known to already have the potential for this.

And don't get me wrong, RP improved all these things over not having any RC, it's just that Trinnov improves all these things more.

I'm sorry if I'm not articulating this well. When something sounds better it just does, its difficult to put into words.

But in the end it is still subjective, it's just my opinion.

Hopefully I can elaborate more once I switch back to RP.
 

doorofnight

Member
Let's wait then :) :thumbsup: for the information so far.
 

themovierooms

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Interestesting thread, and I think people like to know more (objective) information.

Do you have some REW measurements of both setups? And why exactly do you like Trinnov more?
How many DAC/ACD do you have with RP-1 and with Trinnov?

I've used Lyngdorf RP for many years, but I've treated my room, and now I use minidsp for the subwoofers only and my amp for the crossovers. No RC/DSP for my fronts. I believe this sounds better.



And impossible? BTW we are not sensitive to phase-shifts. We cannot hear them. I am not sure what you mean by "correct phase""?
Its been written about extensively online, the review here gives a good description of its capabilities.

https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Trinnov-MC-V17.3.pdf
 
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doorofnight

Member
I do not read reliable information that supports the claim about phase shifts. Besides, we cannnot hear them (Toole). But I am sure there are many threads about this specific discussion and I have no intentions to restart this discussion here :)
 

mattkhan

Distinguished Member
I do not read reliable information that supports the claim about phase shifts. Besides, we cannnot hear them (Toole). But I am sure there are many threads about this specific discussion and I have no intentions to restart this discussion here :)
I have no interest in a debate either so will just reiterate the previously commented point, relative phase and absolute phase are different things. One can be audible, the other is not.

Reputable source - Phase, Time and Distortion in Loudspeakers

The question then is how different is the relative phase between your speakers and this is an exercise best left to the listener :)
 
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indus

Distinguished Member
Its been written about extensively online, the review here gives a good description of its capabilities.

https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Trinnov-MC-V17.3.pdf

I've only just quickly read that (for the first time).
Funnily enough all the stuff that the experienced listeners ( the Game of Thrones sound editor) heard was exactly what I was trying to articulate a few posts up; right down to the piano and vocals sounding much more realistic.
Glad to find out it wasn't just a case of me drinking too much beer whilst listening to music!
Good review, I never came across it before as I only searched for ST2 HiFI.

So perhaps there is more than just one RC out there that works then?:)
 

arisholm

Well-known Member
Many thanks for the excellent writeup @indus :thumbsup:
This could be a very interesting addition to my stereo setup.

Could you please explain the current setup, it was not clear to me at least where in the chain you added the Trinnov? I assume analog in from your DAC and analog out to your pre-amp since that's what you did with the RP-1 (I remember we had a discussion about this a while ago:)?
Would it not be better to use the digital input and output of the Trinnov since you have the 380D DAC?? Then you avoid the additional A/D/A and potential SNR degradation due to gain matching etc (at least setting the optimal input sensitivity and output gain was a real issue with my MiniDSP DDRC-88A).
But also: I am curious whether you think the DAC section in the Trinnov is good enough to replace your 380D? (although I am sure you want to keep it in any case since it also has a streamer). But I assume it is the same DAC as in the Amethyst so it should be pretty okay no?
Is that something you intend to evaluate?
Please tell us more :clap:
Thanks!!
 
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