Toshiba HD-EP10 & HD-XE1, what's the difference?

Can anybody tell me what the difference's are between the Toshiba HD-EP10 & the HD-XE1?

I didn't hear anything about the HD-EP10 and suddenly, there it was!

Seems to output in 1080p and decode the HD audio formats so why's it so much cheaper than the XE1?
 

Sonic67

Banned
XE-1 has analogue direct outputs for connecting to older AV amps. It does the audio decoding itself.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Can anybody tell me what the difference's are between the Toshiba HD-EP10 & the HD-XE1?

I didn't hear anything about the HD-EP10 and suddenly, there it was!

Seems to output in 1080p and decode the HD audio formats so why's it so much cheaper than the XE1?

There are several main differences -

The XE1 uses a higher quality HQV REON video processor and according to feedback/tests this produces better PQ than the EP10 for both HD DVD and DVD.

The XE1 supports HD audio decoding and output via 5.1 analogue that is useful if you don't have a HDMI equipped amp.

The XE1 has HDMI V1.3 and will allow HD audio bitstream following an announced FW update. This means any HD audio codec can be passed to an amp for decoding.

Higher quality build materials i.e. metal v plastic

The EP10 is a lower cost HD DVD player that puts a tick in the box for 1080p ouput. However, not all 1080p PQ is equal and some say even 1080i is better from the XE1. Depending on your display this may not be as issue but beware spec sheets !

AVI
 
There are several main differences -

The XE1 uses a higher quality HQV REON video processor and according to feedback/tests this produces better PQ than the EP10 for both HD DVD and DVD. Not all 1080p PQ is equal and some say 1080i is also better from the XE1.

The XE1 supports HD audio decoding and output via 5.1 analogue that is useful if you don't have a HDMI equipped amp.

The XE1 has HDMI V1.3 and will allow HD audio bitstream following an announced FW update. This means any HD audio codec can be passed to an amp for decoding.

Higher quality build materials i.e. metal v plastic

AVI

I would be attaching it to my Onkyo TX-SR875 via HDMI. I think I will get the HD-EP10 for now as it's only £250 from play.com so whatever happens in the next year I'm not going to loose out too much. We all know how much today's technology drops in price within a year :D
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
I would be attaching it to my Onkyo TX-SR875 via HDMI. I think I will get the HD-EP10 for now as it's only £250 from play.com so whatever happens in the next year I'm not going to loose out too much. We all know how much today's technology drops in price within a year :D

It's a shame to miss out on the HD audio decoding in such a nice amp. :)

Will you use 1080p/24 following the player FW update ? IIRC the Onkyo provides 1080p ouput via it's own HQV REON processing. Do you plan to send 1080i/60 from the player allowing the Onkyo to deinterlace/process?

Also does the Onkyo support 1080p/24 processing or just passthrough ? If it's the latter then I guess you lose the advantage of the better processing but gain judder free motion (assuming your display supports it).

You could consider a dual player if you don't altready have a Blu-ray player.

AVI
 
It's a shame to miss out on the HD audio decoding in such a nice amp. :)

Will you use 1080p/24 following the player FW update ? IIRC the Onkyo provides 1080p ouput via it's own HQV REON processing. Do you plan to send 1080i/60 from the player allowing the Onkyo to deinterlace/process?

Also does the Onkyo support 1080p/24 processing or just passthrough ? If it's the latter then I guess you lose the advantage of the better processing but gain judder free motion (assuming your display supports it).

AVI

Would you suggest the HD-XE1 in light of my amp then? and send the audio down the 5.1 analogue outputs? It's just that I kind of see the HD-EP10 as a stop-gap for the next year just to test the HD-DVD water's as it's such good value.

I know that I've already ordered the HD-EP10 but it's not too late to cancel. I'm just fed up of trying to watch my HD-DVDs on my Xbox 360 HD-DVD player when it's sooooo noisy.

As for what I'm viewing it all on, I've currently got a PDP-507 but am in the final decisions of what PJ to get (JVC HD1 or Sony VPL-VW60) which will make more use of the 1080p 24fps.

I can't tell you much else about the amp at this stage as I only unpacked it last night and haven't completely finished reading the manual....I must admit it was bought mainly on the strength of the outstanding reviews. :D
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Would you suggest the HD-XE1 in light of my amp then? and send the audio down the 5.1 analogue outputs? It's just that I kind of see the HD-EP10 as a stop-gap for the next year just to test the HD-DVD water's as it's such good value.

IIRC your amp will decode Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD MA plus the lossy codecs and PCM. The XE1 with the bitstream FW update will allow you to send codecs to the amp via HDMI. No need to use analogue unless you want to. The 1080p/24 FW update on the XE1 should also provide a better quality source than the EP10.

I know that I've already ordered the HD-EP10 but it's not too late to cancel. I'm just fed up of trying to watch my HD-DVDs on my Xbox 360 HD-DVD player when it's sooooo noisy.

As for what I'm viewing it all on, I've currently got a PDP-507 but am in the final decisions of what PJ to get (JVC HD1 or Sony VPL-VW60) which will make more use of the 1080p 24fps.

Personally I would spend a little more and go with the EX1. HD DVD into the JVC HD1 looks stunning and judder free at 1080p/24. I would want to ensure that getting to 1080p/24 was via a really good video processing to avoid introducing artefacts.

Given your amp's audio capability and you plans to go big screen I would go with the XE1 or investigate the new dual players to confirm what they offer.

AVI
 

bluepeter

Active Member
There are several main differences -

The XE1 uses a higher quality HQV REON video processor and according to feedback/tests this produces better PQ than the EP10 for both HD DVD and DVD.

agreed

The XE1 supports HD audio decoding and output via 5.1 analogue that is useful if you don't have a HDMI equipped amp.

again yes

The XE1 has HDMI V1.3 and will allow HD audio bitstream following an announced FW update. This means any HD audio codec can be passed to an amp for decoding.

Here 1.3 is a bit of a misnomer and more relevant to picture than sound (deep colour) being one instance. it will be some time before the full capabilities of 1.3 are taken advantage of, though lip sync and a better handshake could prove to be worthwhile.

Higher quality build materials i.e. metal v plastic

The EP10 is a lower cost HD DVD player that puts a tick in the box for 1080p ouput. However, not all 1080p PQ is equal and some say even 1080i is better from the XE1. Depending on your display this may not be as issue but beware spec sheets !

agreed

I think you'll find that Tosh have a few surprises up their sleeve over the upcoming months for both machines.. I purchased the EP-10 on the understanding it will get all the FW updates the XE1 will get....

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616169&page=2

regards
Peter
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
The XE1 has HDMI V1.3 and will allow HD audio bitstream following an announced FW update. This means any HD audio codec can be passed to an amp for decoding.

Here 1.3 is a bit of a misnomer and more relevant to picture than sound (deep colour) being one instance. it will be some time before the full capabilities of 1.3 are taken advantage of, though lip sync and a better handshake could prove to be worthwhile.

Peter

You may want to double check the above. As far as I undertand it you cannot pass HD Audio (Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD MA) as bitstream to allow the amp to decode the HD codecs without HDMI 1.3a and appropriate enablement of this feature in the player.

So if you buy one of those nice new Onkyo AV receivers like Nathan above with HD audio decoding capability you will need this feature if you want to use it to decode. That makes it a bit worthwhile irrespective of the other things 1.3 may offer in future. :)

AVI
 

bluepeter

Active Member
I think you might find that HD Audio bitstream output isn't one of them. This thread may be of interest -

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616169

AVI


Sorry, yes it may prove that 1.2a is not sufficient to pass the bit stream but I think that folk are misunderstanding why 1.3 is of no real need unless we go to a two box affair (transport only) when it will come into it's own. I've seen some very good analogies.. the zipped/unzipped file being the best one... The EP-10 can do the unzip and the decoding then send a lossless true HD/ DTH MA signal via HDMI to the amp to amplify. There is a lot of misinformation being banded about presently leading to an awful lot of misunderstanding. 24fps is more important FW update than any other. Its much to early in the game to be buying the top of the range player until the dust settles and the war is over... The EP-10 is the real bargain of the three, shame it got slated by a couple of biased reviewers. Why waste your money getting the EX1 for the 5 analogue outputs and Reon chip for better upscaling when you're going to double up on the Reon chip if you buy the Onkyo.... The EP-10 is quite sufficient as it stands @ the mo. Having wasted loads of money over the years on esoteric hi-fi... this format change is just another opportunity for folk to do the same. My wallet is taking a rest this time round.

Peter
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Sorry, yes it may prove that 1.2a is not sufficient to pass the bit stream but I think that folk are misunderstanding why 1.3 is of no real need unless we go to a two box affair (transport only) when it will come into it's own. I've seen some very good analogies.. the zipped/unzipped file being the best one... The EP-10 can do the unzip and the decoding then send a lossless true HD/ DTH MA signal via HDMI to the amp to amplify. There is a lot of misinformation being banded about presently leading to an awful lot of misunderstanding. 24fps is more important FW update than any other. Its much to early in the game to be buying the top of the range player until the dust settles and the war is over... The EP-10 is the real bargain of the three, shame it got slated by a couple of biased reviewers. Why waste your money getting the EX1 for the 5 analogue outputs and Reon chip for better upscaling when you're going to double up on the Reon chip if you buy the Onkyo.... The EP-10 is quite sufficient as it stands @ the mo. Having wasted loads of money over the years on esoteric hi-fi... this format change is just another opportunity for folk to do the same. My wallet is taking a rest this time round.

Peter

Peter

I don't disagree that there is plenty of hype and confusion over HDMI 1.3 but I think that bitstream support is one of the few areas that is important for many.

The XE1 enables you to use a legacy amp today to access HD audio via analogue and a new amp tomorrow via HDMI should for example you wish to take advantage of DTS HD MA that isn't supported in the player.

Also the REON in the amp will not process a 1080p/24 signal and therefore you still need a high quality source to provide this signal type and the amp will "pass through" for judder free film. If the FW update requires the Tosh to process 1080p/24 from 1080i/60 video processing quality will be very important.

It's also only a waste of money if your system can't take advanatge of these features. I guess it remains to be seen how well the EP10 compares to the XE1 with regard to 1080p/24 output but both have there place. :)

AVI
 

Geesus

Member
The biggest difference is the price ;)

The picture quality of the XE1 might be better, but it's not twice as good as the price-point implies.

I will be sticking with my EP-10 for now, at least until the 3rd gen emerges.
 

bluepeter

Active Member
The biggest difference is the price ;)

The picture quality of the XE1 might be better, but it's not twice as good as the price-point implies.

I will be sticking with my EP-10 for now, at least until the 3rd gen emerges.

Hole in one :thumbsup: ... When I reviewed both machines I didn't see enough difference to warrant the the extra cost of the XE1 and with the upcoming FW upgrades it makes the EP-10 @ £250 from play.com very good value... I was thinking more like 4/5th gen before I consider a top flight player... Too early in the game to spend nearly £500 on a player... I need to see the format more mature first... When I first started to spend money on vinyl the product was a hundred years old... The Linn deck was an easy choice. I was a very early adopter of CD (was laughed @... it will never catch on).... DVD... well the rest is history, well all know how fast product cycles are theses days..Oh and the Linn still sounds fantastic by the way... anyone wanna buy some shellac :D

Regards
Peter
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Hole in one :thumbsup: ... When I reviewed both machines I didn't see enough difference to warrant the the extra cost of the XE1 and with the upcoming FW upgrades it makes the EP-10 @ £250 from play.com very good value... I was thinking more like 4/5th gen before I consider a top flight player... Too early in the game to spend nearly £500 on a player... I need to see the format more mature first... When I first started to spend money on vinyl the product was a hundred years old... The Linn deck was an easy choice. I was a very early adopter of CD (was laughed @... it will never catch on).... DVD... well the rest is history, well all know how fast product cycles are theses days..Oh and the Linn still sounds fantastic by the way... anyone wanna buy some shellac :D

Regards
Peter

Fair points but what if HD audio is really important to me and I don't have a HMDI amp ? It's only good value if it does what I want.

I guess we could argue that the EP10 is poor value compared to the E1 as your display may do a better job of video processing 1080i/60 to 1080p than the player. Some displays will also remove 3:2 judder from a 60hz film source so again if you have such a display that makes the £250 EP10 poor value next to a £170 E1.

BTW I do think 1080p/24 output to a display that supports it is good news and I would not like to go back to 60hz. The judder looks even worse after becoming accustomed to watching HD DVD at 1080p/24.

Apart from 1080p/24 output what other feature updates are expected that will not apply to the E1?

AVI
 

Geesus

Member
Going with my experience of the PS3's handling of 1080P/24 material, it was worth the extra £70 for me to get the EP-10. if the feature is included in the next firmware.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Going with my experience of the PS3's handling of 1080P/24 material, it was worth the extra £70 for me to get the EP-10. if the feature is included in the next firmware.


And that's my point it's worth paying extra be it for the EP10 or XE1 if it gives you something you value. :smashin:

I agree HD DVD @ 1080p/24 is an improvement based on the movies I've watched.

AVI
 

city fan

Active Member
And that's my point it's worth paying extra be it for the EP10 or XE1 if it gives you something you value. :smashin:

I agree HD DVD @ 1080p/24 is an improvement based on the movies I've watched.

AVI

Hi Avi

I presume 1080p is of no use to me with my 1080i max screen. (Even though it does support 1080p) Will I see any benefit by selecting 1080p on the Tosh when the firmware update arrives.

Also, re HD audio I thought that those who had the new HDMI ready amps were getting TrueHD through HDMI. What is it they can now get that's different? I presume I still get the lossless sound on TrueHD through my analogues as normal?

Cheers..
 

Geesus

Member
My TV (Pio 8G) isn't a 1080P panel eithr, but it really does benefit from the 24Hz processing. Might be an idea to check the stats of your television and see if it has the feature.
 

city fan

Active Member
My TV (Pio 8G) isn't a 1080P panel eithr, but it really does benefit from the 24Hz processing. Might be an idea to check the stats of your television and see if it has the feature.

IIRC the Panny will accept the 1080p input and then down-convert it to it's native resolutio, probably the same as the Pio.

When the firmware update comes out, best thing for me to do is compare and see. Glad to see it's benefited you on your PS3 :smashin:
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
My TV (Pio 8G) isn't a 1080P panel eithr, but it really does benefit from the 24Hz processing. Might be an idea to check the stats of your television and see if it has the feature.

Geesus

I'm not that familiar with the Pioneer but IIRC it will process a 1080i/60 film material source back to the original 24 frames and then refersh at 72hz. I don't know if there's some specific setting you need to apply to achieve this. The result should be the same as feeding the player a 1080p/24 signal.

Check out post #8 and on in this thread - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617430

Also I suspect your display may do a better job of deinterlacing a 1080i/60 signal than the player does to achieve a 1080p output. The Pio has decent quality video processing compared to many displays.

AVI
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Hi Avi

I presume 1080p is of no use to me with my 1080i max screen. (Even though it does support 1080p) Will I see any benefit by selecting 1080p on the Tosh when the firmware update arrives.

Also, re HD audio I thought that those who had the new HDMI ready amps were getting TrueHD through HDMI. What is it they can now get that's different? I presume I still get the lossless sound on TrueHD through my analogues as normal?

Cheers..

1080i and 1080p are the same resolution. The "i" and "p" identify how the signal is transmitted to the display. IIRC most recent Panasonic displays would adopt an internal refersh of 60hz with this signal assuming the model accepts 1080p/24 in the first place. Sorry to say the result is judder. Try your display with 1080i and 1080p from the player and see if you notice any difference. There are some great video processing torture tests scenes to try on MI3 HD DVD if you have it.

If the player can decode HD audio codecs such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD MA then it can pass the decoded signal as PCM over non 1.3 HDMI or Analogue. However, if the player does not decode these codecs then the only way to use them is via an external amp. To do this the player must support HD audio bitstream and this requires HDMI 1.3a and this feature supported by the player. The other advantage is the amp provides better audio management than the basic stuff in the player and often "ext in" analogue will bypass these management features.

AVI
 

Geesus

Member
Geesus

I'm not that familiar with the Pioneer but IIRC it will process a 1080i/60 film material source back to the original 24 frames and then refersh at 72hz. I don't know if there's some specific setting you need to apply to achieve this. The result should be the same as feeding the player a 1080p/24 signal.

Check out post #8 and on in this thread - http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617430

Also I suspect your display may do a better job of deinterlacing a 1080i/60 signal than the player does to achieve a 1080p output. The Pio has decent quality video processing compared to many displays.

AVI

Cheers for that AVI - am doing that very thing currently for HD-DVD via 1080i and while it looks very nice indeed, it is not quite as effective as the PS3 when it comes to eliminating 'judder' - not 'quite' as smooth for me.

RE the player Vs tv debate, as to deinterlacing, scaling etc - we are still investigating in said thread - some prefer 1080P some prefer 1080i - seems to be in the eye of the beholder on that score ;)

What I am trying to get my head around, is if the PS3 is pumping out the 1080P directly without processing, when it is set at 1080P, as BD are of course encoded in 1080P...surely you would bring more conversions into play if you set the player at 1080i?
 

Jeff

Distinguished Member
What I am trying to get my head around, is if the PS3 is pumping out the 1080P directly without processing, when it is set at 1080P, as BD are of course encoded in 1080P...surely you would bring more conversions into play if you set the player at 1080i?

Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, DVD are all encoded compressed 4:2:0, they have to be decoded and converted to 4:2:2 (or 4:4:4) before being output to a display. So there is no such thing a "direct without processing". The 1080i to 1080p conversion is a simple weave deinterlace, compared to the first bit, this is dead easy.
 

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