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Toshiba 42WP16 for £2999 or Panasonic W5 for £3299

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Jon Weaver, Oct 14, 2002.

  1. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    It seems that Richer Sounds will now be doing the series 5 Panasonic for £300 more than they are (Were) doing the Toshiba.

    Assuming that you could have either, would people rather save £300 and get the known 4th Gen Toshiba, or pay an extra £300 and get the new 'unproven' 5th gen model.

    Is there anything about the W5 to justify the extra £300?
     
  2. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Looks like the Series 5 is the one!!

    I have just found out that the Series 4 doesn't support '3:2 Pull Down'

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.phps=&threadid=50793

    This is apparantly causes 'jerky' pans in NTSC material.

    I noticed this (infact my wife did) when I demos the Panasonic and put it down to not being used to it..

    Apparantly, the Series 5 has '3:2 Pull Down' and consiquently, pans are smoother.

    As my DVD collection is 80/20 in favour of NTSC I need to get the best out of NTSC.

    For £300 more, its a no brainer.
     
  3. steelej

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    Hi Jon,

    Yeah I agree, I would go for the 5(well I did :)) Joe Fernand has posted some of the improvements of the 5 over the 4 and for 300 quid more you're right it's a no brainer.

    John.
     
  4. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I hadn't spotted that post.. Thats exactly what I was looking for.

    I will take a look.

    The thing which is on my mind, is the comment which has been made in that the Series 5 was actually a lower cost unit...

    I am sure that this isn't the case, but with improved NTSC playback, I don't see that there is much choice.

    The fact that my missus noticed the 'jerky' movement on my copy of Monsters Inc. means that it must be a real problem.

    I wondered why I hadn't this on my previous demos (I had actually seen Monsters Inc running before).. But then I remembered that before I was watching a R2 version.. This time, it was my own NTSC version.

    The fact that my CRT is going back due to poor NTSC playback means that I have to get it right this time.

    My order has gone in to R.S for a Series 5.. Hopefully, I will get one by the end of hte month.. Then I have to source a stand.. Thats proving just as difficult!!
     
  5. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    John,

    I can't find the post you mention... Do you remember which thread it was in??
     
  6. steelej

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  7. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    John,

    Does the Series 5 have the same 'buzzing' transformer as the W4?

    Does the VGA input still not support 'JUST'?

    It would be lovely if those 2 problems were fixed.. But i am not expecting that they are.

    Again, thanks for your help.

    Jon
     
  8. steelej

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    Hi John,

    Yeah it still buzzes, I really don;t think its that bad but its all down to each individual I think as to wether its a problem or not. Everyone I know who's been over to see the plasma(And it's a lot) haven't even noticed it.

    And just mode is still not available on the VGA input.

    John.
     
  9. CarlB

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    Jon,

    Please be aware that this improvement I mentioned is only applicable when feeding the panel an interlaced NTSC signal, and is also no different to the problems you would see on a CRT with NTSC material (your 'smooth scan' set not permitting). ;)

    It is generally more noticeable on a plasma because the picture is larger than you are used to, so it exagerrates any errors in the source and/or processing. Whilst the deinterlacer in the new Panasonic offers 3:2 pulldown and is therefore an improvement over the model 4, advancements in progressive technology means that there are many DVD players out there which do a better job, and this will continue to be the case in future. Only consider the internal deinterlacer on the model 5 panel a reasonable stopgap, and try to make sure your next purchase is a good progressive scan DVD player. When this occurs you will be bypassing the Panasonic's internal deinterlacer so the 3:2 pulldown will not be an issue. The other point to note is that it appears the Panasonic deinterlacers do not account for processing time and I found that there were significant lipsynch issues when viewing DVD's via my interlaced player on the plasma. That problem appears to have been cured since switching to the Denon 3800, which I presume has some audio delay to compensate for the video processing time.

    For me, I would choose the model 5 for the 10-bit video board. My model 4 has an 8-bit board and can only display 256 shades of grey compared to 1024 on the model 5. This can lead to solarisation on gradual colour bands and I would definitely have gone for the 10-bit model given the choice.

    Buy the model 5, don't complain too much about the lipsynch if you see it, revel in the fantastic pictures, then buy a progscan DVD player and take it to the next level... :D
     
  10. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Thanks Carl,

    It did cross my mind that I would be getter off with the 2999 Toshiba and then putting the £300 towards a Prog Scan DVD player.

    However, i am sure you will agree that now wouldn't be the best time to buy a P.Scan DVD player inlight of the recent changes to PAL.

    Whilst Denon is a good choice, its slightly out of my budget..

    I have a very specific requirement for my DVD player.. I need it to play SVCDS and DVD-R and it took me months to find a player that met my needs.

    I have no doubt that I will buy a ProgScan player, but I am going to wait for a while, which is why I would prefer to have a smoother NTSC display out of the box.

    With regards to solorization, I really hope that you are talking about the probelm I have seen where you get shimmering 'patches', especially in backgrounds.

    If this is what you are talking about and it IS fixed on the Series 5, I will be happy bunny, as this was one of the concerns that I had when I saw it.

    I think that if the Series 5 was MUCH more expensive than the 4, then I would be happy with the old model.. But the fact that there is only £300 in it, makes me think that the W5 is the best choice.

    Again, thanks for your comments.
     
  11. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    With regards to the lip sync, I am still a little confused about this.

    I took a DVD into the shop the other day (Alan Partridge) to simulate near TV conditions.

    The DVD was only connected via SVideo and one of the things I looked for was lip-sync.

    I must admit that I couldn't see any.

    Is this because the lip-sync that people are talking about is minute, or have I missed something??

    Are you also saying that the lip-sync will be worse on the Series 5?
     
  12. nickt

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    Jon, I'm not sure if this thread has any comparisons between the model 4 and 5, but check out
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49611

    To see lip (un)sync in action, I seem to remember that the extras for Shrek were awful, but I suspect that is the disk. Other than that, I haven't really noticed a problem (I use the VGA input). I guess your brain either sees it or it doesn't. My brain is clearly too slow...

    If you REALLY want to see out of sync dialog (and scare the hell out of yourself like I did the other day) try watching an analogue feed (say by using the tuner on your video) but take the sound from your Pace DTV receiver - it is a few seconds out!
     
  13. Joe Fernand

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    Jon

    Also keep in mind that your £300 is purchasing a Panasonic 'on-site' warranty (that is if your supplier is supplying a UK spec model!) as opposed to a longer 'return to manufacturer' warranty with the Toshiba - I'm not saying one is better than the other but possibly one suits your circumstances better that the other.

    Steelej

    Can you confirm what input configuration is on your display - someone who just purchased one (not from me ;) I must add) has just asked me to supply a BNC board - my info is this will not work; anything in your manual about fitting optional boards. As I understand it you can fit either the RCA terminal board or the SCART terminal board to the B model!

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  14. seanm

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    If you are buying the Toshiba from Richer Sounds they now offer a 3 year extended on-site warranty for £250 (was £500 last month)

    If the Engineer can't fix it there and then, you get an immediate replacement.

    this does not cover screen burn, but does include pixels dying.

    Not Bad!
     
  15. CarlB

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    Jon,

    I only use my plasma for DVD and gaming so can't comment on off-air or satellite lipsynch issues. However, general consensus has it that 60ms delay is caused by the deinterlacing process, which causes the audio to lead the image by this amount.

    Now, on many DVDs you will not notice this, but if a DVD already had minor lipsynch issues they are compounded by this extra delay added by the Panasonic deinterlacer. I often found that only certain sections of movies were affected, perhaps where live dialogue could not be used and was then later looped, perhaps not perfectly with the original source.

    I couldn't see the problem on every disc, some were fine but others were really obvious. I haven't seen a single lipsynch problem with NTSC or PAL-P from the 3800 yet (fingers crossed), but I am also having my AVCA1SE upgraded in November which introduces a master audio delay function to remedy these issues if they arise.

    PS. Alan Partridge DVD would probably be less affected by lipsynch as I doubt the sound would be looped later and was likely recorded 'live' in the studio. This would only leave the standard 60ms delay which was not enough to see (for me, and apparently you).
     
  16. steelej

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    Joe,

    The Input board on my Pw5 is the RCA board, I don';t remeber seeing anything in the manual about any others but my Girlfriend has put my manual away in a safe place so we won;t lose it, now we cant find it so it's probably lost forever :) I'll have a look for it later and check it out.

    John.
     
  17. browellm

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    Hi John

    Just for the record, it is not transformer buzz, it's from a set of piezo capacitors in the unit.

    I think if it was the transformer, the problem would have put to bed ages ago. As already mentioned, wether you hear it or not is probably more a function of ambient noise, your sensitivity to that frequency and the "liveliness" and reflections of your room, rather than if you get a "good 'un".

    For me, it was murder (so much so I go a refund) but many don't even notice it or have mentally blanked it out.
     
  18. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    Looks like I made a mistake about the 'jerky' panning that I saw.. My 'Monsters Inc' disk was PAL after all, so it wouldn't be improved by the 3:2 Pulldown offered on the Series 5.

    I don't mind admitting that i am still nervous about the 'buzzing' and 'lip sync', but, what I can do.. I have researched this to death and other than an 'in home' trial, I just have to go with the flow.
     
  19. epicdream

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    Joe,

    I have my W5 manual handy and the only additional boards available are:

    1) RCA Terminal Board: all standard phonos & S-video, not BNCs
    2) Scart/Component Board: 1 Scart + 5 phonos
    3) Tuner Terminal Board: single D type connector

    I have just got my RCA terminal board today and Star Wars LD (via S-video) look fantastic! It kicks the ass out of my old Sony 32" Wega CRT.

    Also I have no problems with lip-sync or buzzing, my screen is whisper quiet...

    Neill
     
  20. lloydo

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    epicdream

    From the info you posted does that mean that you can get an additional terminal board that will accept a scart connection e.g. from a digibox and component connections to connect a suitable DVD player.
     
  21. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    I hope this is right.. If there is a SCART input option, this could solve a lot of problems.

    The Plasma might then be able do 'auto-wide' switching (pin 8) and it wouldn't need a J.S Converter..

    It also might then support 'JUST' mode..

    My fingers are crossed that this is an option.. if it is, I want it!!
     
  22. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    CarlB,

    Can you tell me a little more about the improvements between the 8 and 10 bit capability of the W5.

    Since I first saw the W4, I was disppointed with the 'patches' of shimmering colour which is often seen in backgrounds.

    I went to my local Panasonic centre at lunch time and first watched a bit of Jurrasic Park 3.

    All the time, in the backgrounds, there were the large patches of shimmering that I saw before.

    I then changed to 'Monsters Inc', and again, on some backgrounds there was the same effect.

    I then tried my 'Avia Setup Disk'.. I wanted to see if any of the colour spreads would show this problem.

    When I got to the screen with different stripes of grey, all of the shades were different.

    However, some of them 'shimmered' This was especially noticable if you scanned your eye quickly from left to right.. You could also see it worse out of the corner of your eye.

    I have a feeling that the Plamsa is quickly swapping between 2 different colours to generate the single colour.

    I then moved onto the section of Avia which generates screens of solid colour.

    When I got to the blue frame, the effect was obvious. Whilst the blue was a lovely deep blue.. When you flicked your eye over the screen, you could see that it flickered and I am sure that one colour was green.

    I am hoping that this is because the display is only 8bit and therefore it can't generate enough colours.

    Do you think thats its possible that W5 10bit capability will improve this phenominon?
     
  23. Joe Fernand

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    lloydo

    I think you will find the SCART board is a standard SCART 21 pin connector - it will have Composite, S-Video and RGB but not Component.

    If you want Component (YPbPr) input you will require the RCA terminal board.

    I dont know of any DVD players that share the SCART out for RGB and YPbPr - the YPbPr is normally on a separate set of three RCA connectors and I doubt if Panasonics software will allow a YPbPr signal to be sent into the SCART socket even if you made up a custom cable.

    Joe
     
  24. Jon Weaver

    Jon Weaver
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    But according to Epicdreams post above, the card is listed as "SCART/Componet 1xSCART 5xphono"

    This says to me that once you fit this card, you will have a SCART connection for Composite/S-Video and RGB (and hopefully control pins for widescreen) and a Phono based Componet input.

    If this is the case then I want one, as this will solve 90% of my problems.

    So, if anyone ever gets information about availablilty and cost, please post it as soon as possible.
     
  25. lloydo

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    Idealy I'm holding out for a 5 series 37in Panny (Charcoal) and connect a Pace DVB PVR by scart (digital out to amp) and a PAL progressive component DVD player directly to the plasma. If there is such a thing as a Scart/Component board for this plasma this will just make things a little easier and hopefully add a bit more functionality.

    Joe are you sure that the Scart board does not also have component connections?
     
  26. epicdream

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    Jon

    I am going by a crude little diagram in my W5 manual showing the Scart/Component terminal board. It has a single scart socket with 5 phono sockets to the right of the scart. I assume that the phonos are for Component/RGB in and the Scart takes care of composite and S-Video. I could be wrong though...

    The model number for the Scart/Component terminal board is: TY-42TM5TB.

    Hope this helps,

    Neill
     

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