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Tosh XS32 v Pioneer 420/520

I

IBP

Guest
Has anyone tested the Tosh XS32 and the Pioneer 420/520 first hand?

I'd like to know what quality differences there are.
 

Lyricman

Active Member
I have studied all of the recorders and I was looking for a fast machine that can copy quickly from HD to DVD- R and -RW. Also the cost of -R and -RW are a tenth of the cost of DVD Ram. I have decided on the Pioneer 420 as I don't need the DV in/out, the operation is straight forward with good menus and the picture quality is excellent with RGB. The folks on here like the Tosh with its component video and excellent PQ. However it seems to be a tweakers paradise (or nightmare) but with a poor manual and I can see you will end up with poorer copies if you don't set everything correctly. The Pioneer seems reasonably idiot proof for simple editing and copying.
 

nunew33

Standard Member
Lyricman said:
but with a poor manual and I can see you will end up with poorer copies if you don't set everything correctly.
Not quite true.

The manual is poorly written, but you can plug it in and switch it on and record without reading the manual. Default settings are SP mode which is perfectly good quality by anyones standards.

Not reading the manual means there are many features you will miss. And tweakable as it is, you dont need to spend hours setting it up, like say a projector, to get the best results, out of the box its pretty good!
 
D

dakara

Guest
Hi Nunew,
You seem to know what you are talking about,so here are a couple of questions. 1]Can I plug a Firewire C/F cardreader into the DV socket and view/transfer my JPEG digital stills to HDD?
2]Will both of these machines be able to read/display/transfer my JPEG digital still photos from CD-r's created on my Mac?
3]How reliable are these machines generally,and how reliable are the dealer-installed Multi-Region options?
My reason for asking is that neither of these machines is widely sold here in France,so I will be buying sight-unseen from a UK dealer and want to be sure that I choose wisely.I have downloaded the manuals,and read them,but since this will be my first dvd machine ever,much is new to me.
Any advice very welcome, dakara
 

nunew33

Standard Member
1) Havent tried but doubt it!
2)Will read/display Jpegs on a CD (can use unctions like zoom too. Works fine on a CD using wondows file structure, I assume the Mac can create and use a windows file structure. cant transfer. Even if you could there would be no benefit as the speed/flexibility at which you can manipulate photos on a PC could never be matched.
3) Dont have non region 2 discs although mine is supposed to be region free. regarding reliability. Not had any problem in 6 weeks and its on all the time. One coaster on crap DVD blank and wouldnt work with some DVD-RWs I brought, but otherwise its great
 

nunew33

Standard Member
I have used BulkPaq -r Orange (1coaster but It was user error not machine in that it is possible to burn more than a disc can hold and it simply ran out of disc space), Ritek A grade and bulkpaq -RW that simply dont work. However I use a RAM disk to copy stuff to PC and use the -RW for menu prototyping before I make a permanant burn.

havent used infiniti
 
I

IBP

Guest
Thanks Lyricman.

I've been looking at the Tosh for a few weeks now but had waited until the Pioneer models were available. Having had a Pioneer 717 for many years, it's getting a bit old now, I've decided to go for a recorder.

Not really that fussed on configuration as long as i can get good audio and video quality. I don't need the DV inputs either nor DVD-RAM.

The other bonus is that RS are doing the 420H for £399 but they do a price beat with Digital point who are doing it for £389, so i should be able to get it from RS for £379 if all goes well.

Cheers
 
J

jdarushall

Guest
nunew33 said:
I have used BulkPaq -r Orange (1coaster but It was user error not machine in that it is possible to burn more than a disc can hold and it simply ran out of disc space), Ritek A grade and bulkpaq -RW that simply dont work. However I use a RAM disk to copy stuff to PC and use the -RW for menu prototyping before I make a permanant burn.

havent used infiniti
Could you be more specific on

Ritek A grade and bulkpaq -RW dont work???

I thought Ritek A grade -R worked on everything or do you mean -RW

Which bulkpaq -RW blue (X1) or orange (x2)
 

nunew33

Standard Member
Sorry Ritek A grade and bulkpack orange -Rs oth work.

The bulkpaq -RW blue doesnt. assumed it would work on a X 1 and it doesnt
 
J

jdarushall

Guest
nunew33 said:
Sorry Ritek A grade and bulkpack orange -Rs oth work.

The bulkpaq -RW blue doesnt. assumed it would work on a X 1 and it doesnt
I think you did say something like this when you first got the machine,

Bulpaq Blues (X1) don't work on anything.

what -RW's do you (others?) use then???
 

Barzo

Well-known Member
dakara said:
Thanks for the info,Are Infiniti discs ok?
dakara
Yes. Have so far authored 25 without any faults, and have ordered a further 100.
 

nunew33

Standard Member
jdarushall said:
Bulpaq Blues (X1) don't work on anything.QUOTE]
Not quite true!!!

I created some mpegs from quicktime movies (movie trailers).

then I used tmpgenc movie author to create a DVD.

used the -RW using a tosh PC dvd burner (RAM -RW and -R) to proto type menus. tested the output on the RDXS32 which read it fine, simply couldnt write to it.

Sony 735 couldnt read them though!
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
IBP, have a read of the Toshiba RX32 review thread:
http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137168
...although slightly more expensive (about £15) than the Pioneer it does have a number of major features the former doesn't (progressive scan, component, DVD-RAM, iLink etc).

Also just a note about media types:
Also the cost of -R and -RW are a tenth of the cost of DVD Ram
Whatever HDD/DVDR you go for you'll be using DVD-R for virtually everything. You may also find an extensive use for DVD-RW Video Mode. However your use of re-writeable media in the VR format is going to be limited (as you have the HDD) - it's just going to be HDD overflow. They both work the same so whether you have DVD-RAM or DVD-RW (VR) recording doesn't really matter from a functional point of view.

However there are benefits to having DVD-RAM - namely it is the only optical disk format that has proven reliability for long term archiving. A well cared for DVD-R/+Rs can fail within weeks or writing (or can last for years). A well-cared for DVD-RAM will last considerably longer due to the defect management.

Of course there are benefits to DVD-RW VR as well - namely it has universal DVD-ROM compatibility and there are a large number of DVD players now that play DVD-RW VR.
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi

A well-cared for DVD-RAM will last considerably longer due to the defect management.
Just to point out that defect management does nothing for long-term storage. A problem in the phase change material or disc structure happening during storage is going to happen regardless, as if the disc isn't being used it isn't being managed.

The DVD Recorder performs defect management only when the disc is next used. Even then it is Error Correction (which all DVDs have) that the DVD Recorder first uses to retrieve the bad data (if it can), then defect management kicks in to move the defective data somewhere else on the disc and marks the bad area so it isn't used again. DVD-RW (in VR mode) also supports defect management and sparing out of defective areas in the same way.

Will DVD-RAM (or any other disc) live to its rated life-time if recorded then archived, who can say for another 25 years!

Regards

Philip
 

Lyricman

Active Member
I ordered mine from Digital Point for £389 and free delivery, arrives tomorrow. As I will be doing a lot of recording from Satellite I want to have the quickest way of editing comercials etc. on the HD and writing to DVD -RW or -R. I don't want to keep them forever so I could reuse the -RW. Copying at 48x speed from HD to DVD was a key deciding factor. Also it can play JPEG, WMA etc.
 
I

IBP

Guest
Lyricman, let us know what it's like when you get it!

I think I'll give RS a call tomorrow and see if they have any on Demo, if they have stock that is.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Just to point out that defect management does nothing for long-term storage. A problem in the phase change material or disc structure happening during storage is going to happen regardless, as if the disc isn't being used it isn't being managed.
Obviously if a disk, of whatever type, has degraded to such an extent that it is totally unreable then the best defect management in the world isn't going to help (that is where the phyiscial structure of a DVD-RAM comes to play). But the defect management system does have a limited role in preventing lost data after long term storage.

Now I am the first to admit that with video the defect management benefits of DVD-RAM are less important than if dealing with data and the repeated write/re-write cycles of that. But there is still a clear case for it's use and it's practical benefits for long term storage.

A DVD-RW will insert a flag by a defective sector. The drive knows where these defective areas are from information stored before the lead-in that is either written when the drive is formatted or added by the producer as part of (optional) quality checks. That is the only defect check on a DVD-RW (extra security can be added in software on PCs but not on standalone DVD recorders) and occurs at the format stage.

A DVD-RAM on the other hand uses two Defect Lists (the Primary and Secondary) which themselves are duplicated after the Lead In and before the Lead Out (adding further security). The Primary Defect List is similar to the information sector of a DVD-RW as it is added during a format or prior to first use by quality checks by the producer (and as all DVD-RAMs worldwide are made by Panasonic and Maxell you know that this will certainly have been done). However DVD-RAMs also have the Secondary Defect List which can be modified during READ operations (on DVD recorders only) with data from bad sectors moved to working sectors.

The point I was making in my previous post was that if you have a programme archived on a re-writeable medium (DVD-RAM or DVD-RW), you leave it on the shelf for a couple of years, put it in your recorder and play it the with a DVD-RAM you still have the work of the Secondary Defect List that should assist with moving any readable corrupted data. If you atempt to copy the data off a corrupted DVD-RW then you will just get a cycle error with a DVD-RW. That is the point I was making.

The bottom line from all of this though is that DVD-RAM has had a proven track history. The very first DVD-RAMs have existed since 1998 and have proven to be reliable with data remaining safe to this day. I myself have three DVD-RAMs that are still readable from 1999. DVDRs of all other flavours have all proven an ability to fail although this obviously depends upon the brand and dye used. Storage conditions will, as always, also play a part.

It goes without saying that you won't believe a word of what I'm saying (you never do) so here is a suitable link:
http://www.ramprg.com/FileUploads/MediaSciences_WhitePaper.pdf
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi

Secondary Defect List that should assist with moving any readable corrupted data.
Exactly, "assist with moving any readable corrupted data!" The point I was making, which did not need a war and peace reply, (lol) was that defect management does not help the retrieval of data. You could argue that the last thing you would want happening on media that had been archived for many years is for the recorder to get clever and start moving things about, if the media has degraded then the last thing that should be happening to it is the writer re-writing data. Surely the most important point of archived media is to retrieve the data, the ability to write back isn't.

The white paper also explains my point perfectly, you should calm down a little bit Rasczak

:)

Of course ironically where video recording is concerned, and I have mentioned this before that DVD-RAM behaves much more like DVD-RW on set-top recorders than you would admit to, "the major functions of defect management, which are verify after write and replacement data to Spare Area, have been typically switched off during real-time streaming operations (e.g., video recording using the VR format)."

Taken from: Rewritable DVD Benefits and Technologies Abstract, This paper provides information about recordable DVD technology for the Microsoft® Windows® family of operating systems. It provides guidelines for recordable DVD related engineers to understand a new defect management technology for rewritable DVD. March 6, 2003, DVD Recordable special interest group Hitachi, Ltd. Matsu****a Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. PIONEER CORPORATION TOSHIBA CORPORATION can be found at: http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winhec/papers03.mspx

Regards

Philip
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
It was hardly a 'War & Peace' reponse - rather short and to the point IMHO.

The point I was making, which did not need a war and peace reply, (lol) was that defect management does not help the retrieval of data.
And the point I was making that it does. As you are doubtless aware DVD data can be readable but still corrupted: if you doubt that just look at a 'failed' DVD-R which will play in a DVD player but, when you attempt to extract the contents, it will fail with a cycle redundancy error. This is invariably what happens when dealing with 'decaying' disks and is certainly the position I have found myself in a few times. The Secondary Defect Management of DVD-RAM can, in somecases, prevent these cycle errors by moving the data. That is where it assists with long term storage. Even if the benefit is occasional and limited there is still a benefit. A DVD-RW will not do this unless it has suitable software support (i.e. on a PC).

As I say there are other factors in the equasion (disk structure) and the defect management is just one of them. But whereas DVD-RW has only the initial and UDF error correction, DVD-RAM has the Primary, Secondary and UDF systems to rely upon. Which gives it the edge for both recording and playback. Now as I said above the significance of that is probably not that much - but it is still an issue.

Of course ironically where video recording is concerned, and I have mentioned this before that DVD-RAM behaves much more like DVD-RW on set-top recorders than you would admit to, "the major functions of defect management, which are verify after write and replacement data to Spare Area, have been typically switched off during real-time streaming operations (e.g., video recording using the VR format).
Defect management is integral to the drives used by the major players: perhaps the Pioneer report is refering to some of the cheaper Japanese brands but the JVC, Panasonic, Samsung and Toshiba ranges use Hitachi/Panasonic sourced drives using Firmware that doesn't allow defect management to be disabled. You can verify this (e.g.) on the Panasonic HS2 by going to ????? and you will see the same Firmware is used as in the DF310. Fruther proof is to check the read times: the Panasonic HS2 is the perfect example as this uses the DF310 drive. It's read/write times are identical to the second with that of the PC DF310 drive because both use defect management (in a hacked non-defect management system read/write times are significantly faster).

And in addition without defect management a DVD-RAMs lifespan is not anywhere near 100,000 re-writes: but it is well accepted (and confirmed by Panasonic) that their set-top units ARE indeed capable of this (as explained on Panasonic.com for example).

But as I have been saying all along the bottom line is that DVD-RAM has a number of features going for its use as a long term storage tool:
- DVD-RAMs proven track record
- The general suggestion that you should use different media types to backup
- Disk Structure - effectively an extension of the point above
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi

prevent these cycle errors by moving the data.
You are still talking about defect management moving data after it has been read. In order for defect management to move it, the drive has to be able to read it and apply error correction, defect management does not help with reading data, only with moving it somewhere else provided it can be read correctly. When archiving the concern is on reading data several years later, defect management doesn’t help with reading, only moving the data somewhere after it has been read and error corrected successfully.

And in addition without defect management a DVD-RAMs lifespan is not anywhere near 100,000 re-writes: but it is well accepted (and confirmed by Panasonic) that their set-top units ARE indeed capable of this (as explained on Panasonic.com for example).
Who is talking about defect management helping life span here? DVD-RAM uses several methods of increasing its rewrite lifespan. The main elements are extra layers to protect the phase-change material, the phase-change material itself, and the ability to slide writing positions forward or backward so as to avoid wearing out the same area of phase-change material.

Defect management helps of course, but isn’t the sole thing responsible for increasing DVD-RAMs rewrite cycle lifetime.

Defect management, the important part (like a hard-drive) of verifying, moving data, and marking bad sectors during each write operation is turned off in set-top recorders, after all a dropped frame here or there if there should be a write or read error doesn’t matter, but extras like time-slip do. Think about it, a DVD-RAM disc supporting 22Mbits/sec writing on set-top recorder that supports time-slip. If full defect management was in operation it would be doing all this in real-time:

Reading 11Mbits/sec to support playback.
Recording 11Mbits/sec to record.
Reading 11Mbits/sec to verify the record operation.
Finds defective data while reading the playback video, re-reads the defective sector several times to retrieve the data, then moves this block, write verifies it.
While write verifying, finds defective sector (can’t ask for the data again as it is real-time) so re-reads it several times to recover it, marks the sector bad, moves the data, write verifies it.

I would like to know how that is possible without having buffer-under runs (playback stutters) or buffer-overflows (the video is recorded with what amounts to dropped frames) with a DVD-RAM disc supporting 22Mbits/sec, which is the raw write rate, but with write/verify (i.e. defect management turned on) is equivalent to only 11Mbits/sec writing.

Regards

Philip
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Defect management helps of course, but isn’t the sole thing responsible for increasing DVD-RAMs rewrite cycle lifetime.
No of course not - disk structure helps. But the dye in DVD-RAM decays equally as well as ANY optical media - the extra layers of material in a DVD-RAM has significant there but also the defect management. There is no way a DVD-RAM will last 100,00 re-writes without it.

I would like to know how that is possible without having buffer-under runs (playback stutters) or buffer-overflows (the video is recorded with what amounts to dropped frames) with a DVD-RAM disc supporting 22Mbits/sec, which is the raw write rate, but with write/verify (i.e. defect management turned on) is equivalent to only 11Mbits/sec writing.
That is quite simple to answer: on the one hand each read/write process (record or play) rises to a maximum of 10.8MBits/S (including control information) creating a maximum of 21.6MBits/S on DVD-RAM which is 0.4MBits/S below the maximum which would be more than ample for defect management. And secondly defect management is a internal drive process done quite independantly from the core speed of the drive. The quickest link to something that can prove that is this badly translated (babelfish) comment - I'll see if I can dig up something better later.

Further proof of the existance of defect management on DVD-RAM set-tops can be seen. Taking a DVD-RAM from an HS2 you can use Nero 6 disk tool (for example) to verify DMA 1-4 on the DVD-RAM and you can clearly see DMA2 and DMA4 updated after each read/write use clearly indicating defect management in action. Naturally DMA1 and 3 are only updated after each a disk format as on DVD-RW. I will post screenshots later.

Even more proof can be seen from Panasonic statements that have categorised DVD-RAMs defect management under the heading 'worry free recording' that can be seen in most Panasonic press releases linked with the subject (which of course followed the 'defect management is the most important thing in the whole-world' survey conducted by Panasonic - and available here although I guess you have already seen it):

http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/pressroom/cont2.asp?Filter=12&cont_id=464
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic_expands_dvdline_05_02_03.htm
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi

That is quite simple to answer: on the one hand each read/write process (record or play) rises to a maximum of 10.8MBits/S (including control information) creating a maximum of 21.6MBits/S on DVD-RAM which is 0.4MBits/S below the maximum which would be more than ample for defect management.
You are wrong. If defect management is on and requires a write and verify, 22Mbits/sec is not enough for real-time operation when time-slip is being used, it is simple to see this.

Lets take 10 seconds in time, a recording of ten seconds, and playback of 10 seconds of video, assuming full data rate of the recording and playback is at 11Mbits/sec for simplicity. E.g. recording at the 1-hour rate.

The recording, for full defect management needs to write and verify (which is a read) and then read for playback. Remember real-time, everything has to be done in 10 seconds.

DVD-RW 1 speed 11Mbits/sec

Records ten seconds of video at 11Mbits/sec, takes 10 seconds, time is up, no way can it support time-slip. DVD-RW recorders using 1x media cannot support time slip. Fits so far.

DVD-RW 2 speed 22Mbits/sec
Records ten seconds of video at 22Mbits/sec, takes 5 seconds, that leaves 5 seconds free out of our 10 second time span.
Reads ten seconds of video for play back at 22Mbits/sec, takes 5 seconds, that leaves 0 seconds for anything else. This fits, as DVD-RW at 2 speed now supports time-slip.

DVD-RAM 22Mbits/sec
Records ten seconds of video at 22Mbits/sec, takes 5 seconds, that leaves 5 seconds free out of our 10 second time span.
Verifies the ten seconds of video at 22Mbits/sec, takes 5 seconds, leaves 0 seconds to do anything else, time-slip can not be supported OR

Records ten seconds of video at 22Mbits/sec, takes 5 seconds, that leaves 5 seconds free out of our 10 second timespan.
Defect management off, no need to read verify
Reads ten seconds of video for play back at 22Mbits/sec, takes 5 seconds, that leaves 0 seconds for anything else. DVD-RAM can support time slip.

Of course there is a little spare here as 11Mbits/sec is a little higher than needed, however obviously that small amount of spare time allows for seeking.

Obviously you have never had to deal with real-time systems before, if you had then you would realise the only way to support time-slip at 22Mbits/sec DVD-RAM is to turn off defect managements verify and write. Check the specs on the LF-D311, it supports 1385Kbytes/sec writing (1385 x 8 = 11080K/Bits sec) with verify, i.e. defect management on makes it half the speed as it takes twice as long to write and then read. The read speed is shown as 2 speed being 2770Kbytes/sec (2770 x 8 = 22160K/Bits sec). You can not time slip with write verify as essentially you are effectively writing at 11Mbits/sec, it simply isn’t fast enough; surely this isn’t rocket science is it? (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/computer/storage/dvdram/prods/specs/d311.htm)

Regards

Philip
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
You are wrong
Actually I am right. I assume you decided to entirely ignore this article I quoted which confirms what I'm saying about the defect management being seperate to the drive speed specifications?

This makes quoting the writing speeds - which on a Panasonic set-top DVD recorder are 10.8MBits/S for video and audio regardless of core drive speed - somewhat irrelevant. If you want confirmation of this Philip then ask any Panasonic user who will confirm the fact that even if you record on XP (the highest possible recording capacity) then there is still a limited amount of spare capacity detectable on anaylsis in a PC. Why? Because the data rate never exceeds the 10.8MBits/S which always means you have a couple of hundred MBs spare below the 4.3GB limit.

Obviously you have never had to deal with real-time systems before
I'm not going to dignify that with an answer - I'll just let the hundreds of people I have provided advice and assistance to on this board be the judge of whether I know my stuff or not...
 

PhilipL

Member
Hi

Laugh, that link is hardly readable, what exactly is it suppose to say. A jumbled translation about future speeds in DVD writing, is that what you always result to?

DVD-RAM on set-tops turns off the main aspect of defect management in favour of write speed. In order to time-slip you must have 22Mbits/sec through put, the link I gave clearly shows that drives with write verify on is half this. This makes perfect sense as it takes the same time to read the data in order to verify it, as it did to write it. This means the effective write speed is 11Mbits/sec with write verify on, and you have given no explanation as to how time slip is possible if DVD-RAM on set-tops used full defect management. The maths are very simple and you do realise you can't record and read at the same time don't you, and think real-time here and work it out.

So tell me, if the write speed is 11Mbits/sec with write-verify (clearly stated on the link with specifications I gave and in English with no dodgy translations!), how is there time to read for playback at the same time as recording? There is no point making yourself look silly by saying you have 1Mbits/sec spare, as this isn't much use if you are time-slipping and the playback video is 10Mbits/sec is it. At best you could have argued that defect management is on for write-verify when just recording, and turned off in order to achieve time-slip (i.e. to give extra write speed in order to do two things at once in real-time.)

I would have a word with Panasonic and check with them, I am spot on with this and you, as always, are not willing to consider the facts to change your view.

Oh and marketing is great and there is defect management on DVD-RAM set-tops and camcorders, what do you think doing a full format is all about? Writing and verifiy it isn't doing though, sorry.

Regards

Philip
 

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