Toddler Fight

[CFC1]

Was anyone else completely outraged by the non-custodial sentence handed down to this "family" for their parts in this despicable act?...

Press Assoc. - Friday, April 20

A mother who forced her two toddlers to attack each other with weapons and filmed the fight was spared jail.
Zara Care, with her sisters Serenza and Danielle Olver and her mother Carole Olver forced the two toddlers to punch each other in the face. The four women also goaded the two-year-old boy and three-year-old girl, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, to hit each other with a magazine and a hairbrush and when one did not fight they called him a "wimp" and a "f*ggot". Both toddlers were reduced to tears at various points and at one stage the boy was cheered for using a magazine as a weapon and repeatedly hitting the girl around the head. Later a hairbrush was thrown in to the room for them to use. The four women are heard laughing as the toddler brother and sister are urged to keep on fighting. The fight was filmed on a home video recorder and was found by chance by the children's father who is in the Army and had returned from a tour of duty in Iraq. He saw the camera and decided to look for some footage of his children playing to show their grandparents but instead found the fight and reported it to social services. All four women, from North Prospect, Plymouth, Devon, had earlier pleaded guilty to child cruelty and were given 12-month sentences suspended for two years at Plymouth Crown Court. They also were each ordered to carry out 100 hours of community service and banned from working with children. Passing sentence, Judge Francis Gilbert said he found the film "shocking to watch". Care, 21, pleaded guilty to causing or procuring the children to be ill-treated in a manner likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury. Danielle, 19, Serenza, 29, and Carole Olver, 48, pleaded guilty to jointly inciting the ill-treatment of children. Investigating police officers described the footage as shocking and said that all of those who had seen it were stunned.

 

[madman1178]

stuff like this makes me sick.

all those people out there who would do anything to have kids and can't and then you get these sicko's who have them and treat them like this.

People these days end up in prison for much lesser crimes, our's like many others justice system stinks.

 

[overkill]

When I read this I was astonished. Then I thought of some of the parents, and their attitudes, at the primary school our kids go to. And I wasn't.

They didn't give them custodial sentences because the law says they can't. While they could be charged with causing mental cruelty, they didn't actually harm the children themselves, just caused them to be harmed - by another child. More's the pity............. a few years would do them all good.

What a group of truly awful women.

 

[lord-dudester]

how this lot never got locked up is beyond me... its shocking what the legal system in the country can do!

 

[Member 55145]

funny i thought breaching human rights was one of the worst crimes you could commit.

no wonder the nspcc and child protection agencies have such a difficult time.

i guess the kids will still be living with their parents too?

puts our country to shame imo and the judge should of appealed to a higher authority to sentance them with a jail term

 

[smiffy333]

Always amazes me what some people will do and I think anybody with or without kids would be sickened by what these so called 'parents' have done.

Isn't it always the same though how lenient crimes agaist kids are punished when I personally think they are the worst offences out there!

 

[vinvader]

So these scum bags have been banned from working with children.

Hmmmmm, something tells me that they probably don't work anyway.

I hope they get a hard time from everybody who lives near them whenever they go out.

 

[mitchec1]

Not outraged that thet didn't go to jail, just not suprised.

The only good thing to come out of this the two children have been taken away and will go to someone who cares about them.

 

[sdb123]

Who won the fight?

I heard this on the news yesterday and couldn't believe my ears. Who knows what psychological issues may arise in the two kids in years to come following this incident. Another thought I had is that this was an eight minute long home video; how many other times has it happened?

I'd be interested to understand why their "previous good character" and "other reasons" had to do with them not receiving a custodial sentence.

People like this make my blood boil and IMO no punishment would be severe enough for them.

Steve

 

[Vitalija]

Apologies to anyone my post offended.

 

[Windtalker]

i cant understand how anyone can do things like this it makes you wonder how many other kids go through this and worse abuse behind closed doors.having two children myself ,both girls aged 7 and 3 i just cant understand how a parent can act like this all i want to do is make my kids happy and give them all the love and care they need just like every other normal sane parent with common sense and decentcy.

 

[square-eyes-baz]

Unbelieveable Children look to their parents to protect and look after them, an adult/parent shouldnt even be capable of doing this. Surely your natural instinct would not allow them to do this - or even think about it. Good on the father for not letting this go, at least theyve got a decent dad to care for them. These women (I wont call them mothers) may well find out in the future when the kids are older that this will come back on them .

 

[PoochJD]

HI,

This really does show how crap the British Justice System is, and how -up our gvoernment have become in the past ten years!

When pedophiles, child molesters, rapists and child abusers can just walk out of court free, with a proverbial slap-on-the-wrist, Tony Blair deserves to be shot...

... out of a cannonball, minus the crash-helmet, and into the nearest volcano!

You have to wonder what kind of pillocks work in the courts today, when any ordinary member of society, would have locked the four women up, for at least 2 years minimum, and banned all four of them from having any contact ever again with the two babies concerned!

No wonder no one calls Great Britain "great" any more, if this is the kind of lesson we're passing on to the rest of the world, when it comes to being "tough on crime" and "tough on the causes of crime"!


Pooch

 

[overkill]

HI,

This really does show how crap the British Justice System is, and how -up our gvoernment have become in the past ten years!

When pedophiles, child molesters, rapists and child abusers can just walk out of court free, with a proverbial slap-on-the-wrist, Tony Blair deserves to be shot...

... out of a cannonball, minus the crash-helmet, and into the nearest volcano!

You have to wonder what kind of pillocks work in the courts today, when any ordinary member of society, would have locked the four women up, for at least 2 years minimum, and banned all four of them from having any contact ever again with the two babies concerned!

No wonder no one calls Great Britain "great" any more, if this is the kind of lesson we're passing on to the rest of the world, when it comes to being "tough on crime" and "tough on the causes of crime"!


Pooch

Oh God another 'rent a rant'.

One, the courts can only hand out sentences that they are allowed to by law.

Second, it has nothing to do with 'Tony Blair' what happens in court room. In fact Blair himself has asked for tougher sentencing and been slagged off for doing so by the judiciary.

Third, 'paedophiles etc' don't get 'slaps on the wrists'.

Fourth, we don't know what evidence was presented by the defence, who's job it is to defend these individuals. If the prosecution made a pigs ear of it, then what can the judge and Jury do? They can only give a verdict based on the cases presented. In a democratic, jury based system.

Fifth, these people disgust me, as they do everyone else. However going off into one on the usual boring 'identikit' rant about 'Blair', 'Britains going to the dogs' blah, blah, blah, only serves to make a mockery of the thread.

Which is about how appalled people quite rightly are over women who could do this sort of thing to children.

But, their actions are hardly an indication of how 'bad' people are 'today'. Just check on the records of abuse of children going back over the last 100 (at least) years.

But no doubt that somehow would be blamed on 'Blair' and the 'crappy justice system' too.................

 

[Sporran]

unless i misread i aint heard any mention of social services, you would think the child department in their area would be interested.

You have to question their ability to parent if they think that is fun!

 

[Mep]

the kids have been taken away from the parents.

 

[Sporran]

b*****dy good job too

i only read snippets cause of what it was about didnt want to read too deep as it winds me up!

 

[overkill]

b*****dy good job too

i only read snippets cause of what it was about didnt want to read too deep as it winds me up!

The comment that worried me more than any other, was one of the women stating 'I did it with my kids, it's the norm', then adding 'it was only meant to toughen them up as kids need toughening up'. What, a pair of toddlers? Yeah right.

All I can say, is if it's the norm in their area, then I suggest Social Services and the Police have got their work cut out.

 

[square-eyes-baz]

the kids have been taken away from the parents.

Sorry but the only info I have of this situation is this thread (working night shift ), why have the kids been taken away and not given to the father?

 

[hot-fuzz]

How the hell the Courts decided on not locking them up is beyond me.

There MUST be something we dont know. I kinda have a little faith that the lot of em arent in some way punished.
I heard about this and it really made me angry and i dont get angry often. It was a sick crime and a sick ruling by the Courts.
The Police do their job in getting these sick individuals to Court then let down by the Mags/Judge etc etc.

I hope they get in trouble for something else and then get what they deserve.

 

[Mep]

Sorry but the only info I have of this situation is this thread (working night shift ), why have the kids been taken away and not given to the father?

I don't know mate, haven't followed it in detail, but it may because he's a serving soldier and not in an ideal position to look after them.

 

[PoochJD]

Overkill,

Oh God another 'rent a rant'.

One, the courts can only hand out sentences that they are allowed to by law. Second, it has nothing to do with 'Tony Blair' what happens in court room. In fact Blair himself has asked for tougher sentencing and been slagged off for doing so by the judiciary. Third, 'paedophiles etc' don't get 'slaps on the wrists'. Fourth, we don't know what evidence was presented by the defence, who's job it is to defend these individuals. If the prosecution made a pigs ear of it, then what can the judge and Jury do? They can only give a verdict based on the cases presented. In a democratic, jury based system. Fifth, these people disgust me, as they do everyone else. However going off into one on the usual boring 'identikit' rant about 'Blair', 'Britains going to the dogs' blah, blah, blah, only serves to make a mockery of the thread.

I'm sorry, Overkill, I was under the impression that courts had discretions in what kinds of sentences could be handed-out for crimes committed! I was also under the distinct impression, that the prosecution used the video-tape showing the four women goading and forcing the two toddlers to fight, in full? Or am I wrong in that assertion?!

I was also pretty certain that one of the woman, said - as you rightly mentioned in your next post - that she also "'I did it with my kids, it's the norm", and "It's only meant to toughen them up, because kids need toughening up"? Again, I am wrong?

It would appear to me, that:

1 - Courts are becoming more and more lenient towards criminals, of all kinds.
2 - Blair is partially to blame, for what goes on in the English Courts! Was it not he who said he'd be tough on crime, and tough on the causes of crime, some ten years ago? He and his Home Office cronies have intervened (or should that be interferred) in other cases before. I would have thought that judges would be trying to make sure that English Law was being properly upheld, irrespective of the jails being full to bursting! A crime was committed, and should be justly punished - moreso if minors are involved, and especially if the minors' are the victims!
3 - How badly do two toddlers need to be "toughened up" before these women should have been given some kind of prison sentence, in comparison with the 100 hours Community Service that they actually received?! Would you have preferred a dead toddler, perhaps? Maybe you would have preferred the fighting and goading to have gone on for longer, before you deemed it "severe enough" to warrant a stint in prison?

I apologise Overkill, as my rant is not against you personally, but at the fact that you think my post was a rent-a-rant! It wasn't! It was me airing my opinions, just as you, and everyone else here has done. Yes, you are right in saying that we don't know the exact evidence that was shown in court. And we also don't know the exact circumstances of the goading/fighting of the toddlers, what the family history is like, etc, etc. I agree with you on that part.

But, there's still the issue that four adult women, goaded and cajoled two toddlers into fighting one another, for these sickos' own amusement! To me, that's a form of child abuse, short and simple! No ifs, buts or maybes, it's abuse! And in my opinion, child abuse warrants some kind of prison sentence, be it three months, a year, or whatever. 100 hours of community service, does not in my eyes seem an appropriate punishment. In my mind, the court appears to have been very lenient! And, ultimately, that is sending out the wrong message to other members of the public.

I am fed-up of society becoming more and more lenient on those who break the law, and tougher on those who aren't breaking it. With this country becoming more-and-more akin to living under Orwell's Big Brother syndrome, and with the people running our once great nation further and further into the ground (and not having a single brain-cell between them), I have the right to say that I'm not happy about it! Feel free to disagree with me, by all means. Claim that I'm wrong, and back it up with your own opinion or some kind of evidence. That's perfectly just and right. I'm more than happy to agree-to-disagree with someone, in the long-term, than bust-up over a forum post. But don't imply that I'm some kind of Sun-reading, low-IQ-moron, who doesn't know what's happened, or who is to blame about things going wrong in society.


Pooch

 

[Jenn]

Sorry but the only info I have of this situation is this thread (working night shift ), why have the kids been taken away and not given to the father?

I've read somewhere that the kids are in the care of their grand parents (on father side I suppose?) at the moment.
If the dad is a soldier and away from home a lot it seems the logical thing to do.

 

[Miyazaki]

IMO the women involved should have had their tubes tied so they couldn't have any more children.