To DAC or not to DAC

[oxidising]

So I recently bought myself a new HiFi (Dali Oberon 5s and a Rega Elex-R) and I'm using my PC motherboard on-board sound for output. I started looking at DACs (I'm thinking the SMSL Sanskrit 10 MKII or the Topping E30 based on their AudioScience reviews) but then, do I really need a DAC? The one on the audio chipset of my motherboard sounds fine. Has anyone been in the position of buying a DAC and not actually hearing any difference? Another option would be to buy a soundcard that may have a higher quality DAC than my motherboard.

From blind reviews it doesn't appear most people can really tell the difference between $5 and $500 DACs, although there are of course measureable differences, these are just too small to hear. Then there are others who definitely say an external DAC is a worthwhile purchase. I'd be interested in getting opinions.

 

[Timbo21]

I've auditioned a fair few DACs over the years and used to work in audio mastering and demo'd lots then too.

You can imagine I say I hear the difference, but many don't. Of course the better the system the easier it is to hear differences. You could find a DAC in your budget you want to try, see if it is selling on ebay. That way if you feel you've made a mistake just sell it on. Or, if buying new, and you buy from the internet, then you can send back within 14 days. That's what I did with a couple I tried out.

 

[dannnielll]

So I recently bought myself a new HiFi (Dali Oberon 5s and a Rega Elex-R) and I'm using my PC motherboard on-board sound for output. I started looking at DACs (I'm thinking the SMSL Sanskrit 10 MKII or the Topping E30 based on their AudioScience reviews) but then, do I really need a DAC? The one on the audio chipset of my motherboard sounds fine. Has anyone been in the position of buying a DAC and not actually hearing any difference? Another option would be to buy a soundcard that may have a higher quality DAC than my motherboard.

From blind reviews it doesn't appear most people can really tell the difference between $5 and $500 DACs, although there are of course measureable differences, these are just too small to hear. Then there are others who definitely say an external DAC is a worthwhile purchase. I'd be interested in getting opinions.

The sound chips in modern PCs and laptops are generations removed from those of a decade ago. So the very legitimate objections of a decade ago are no longer valid. At present I use both a very modern PC and a 5 ? Year old Lenovo T450 laptop. There is a distinct difference between any usb soundcardDAC, even a 10 euro one ,and the built in one in the laptop. So yes the external DAC is clearer . I tend to use a different DAC with the PC,..I tend to use it drive headphones , and the PC is not good at that. Were I feeding it directly into my AVR , i would probably use the optical output on the PC and let the AVR do the rest. .But the specs for the PC motherboard are as good as for the AVR

 

[Ugg10]

If you go for the Sanskrit 10th using the pc usb input then make sure you use the second USB port with a wall wart plug to power it. With just the usb from the pc it is under powered and degrades the signal.

My view is that the actual dac chips do not make a huge difference, most measured differences are inaudible, but the output stage design can make a difference. I have had 4 dacs and they do sound slightly different but only marginally if the volume was the same on all (different dac output voltages). The Fostex A3 was clean but lacked bass, the dac in my Rotel RSP1066 was similar but slightly worse mids, The Audio GD NFB3.1 was more analogue with a full bass and nice mids, and the Khadas Tone Board is the cleanest and most balanced one I have had. The Soncoz LAQXD1 may be worth a look as this is a development of the Khadas ironing out a few of the wrinkles.

 

[FaxFan2002]

I was a bit dubious about DAC's but absolutely would go for one now having heard night and day differences in sound quality. The DAC's I've tried recently are -

Novafidelity X14 (integrated AMP / Streamer / DAC) - this was awful, so awful I had to move my speakers to another system to make sure they were working correctly!
A&K SR15 player - used that to verify the DAC in the X14 was truly awful (plugged into the RCA in of the X14).
Cambridge Audio CXN V2 - made my music sound "dull" and woolly.
Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro MQA - replaced the CXN V2 - night and day, night and day.

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro MQA - replaced the CXN V2 - night and day, night and day.

Should hope so at that price

 

[ShanePJ]

I've been using a DAC for a years now and up until I purchased my Teac UD-501, I always felt that DAC's never really brought anything to the table as I'd tried a few and never felt the justification. they just seemed an expensive add on. Yet with my the DAC I use today, I connected it to my Arcam CD36 and it transformed how it sounded for the better. I then tried a few tracks ripped in iTunes via a printer USB cable and did a back to back test with my Arcam and for every song I tried, the Arcam was just poor in comparison. I switched it off, bought a better USB cable (which removed the harshness of the USB cable I could hear) and never switched the Arcam on again until I sold it some weeks afterwards.

I've also tried a few modern DAC which are newer than my Teac and some which have cost twice the price of mine too, yet I always fall back to it as it just clicks with me

I do use a Media Server (which I built myself - its fanless and is quite a beast with both components and software that has been stripped out and tuned) with music which is bit-perfect ripped and connect via a USB cable from the PC via this card SoMT TX-USBexp to my DAC

I think what @FaxFan2002 has mentioned, there are still a few out their that aren't for everyone, so getting the chance to find which one fits your ears is very important. Once you have found one, you wonder why you even asked the question

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

bought a better USB cable (which removed the harshness of the USB cable I could hear)

 

[ShanePJ]

@MaryWhitehouse Yep, I spend the total amount of £30 (at that time) on a better USB cable from one that came free with my printer. Yes, I could hear the harshness from that cheap printer cable which you find funny I'm guessing.

Having said that, I find funny and in quite amazing is that people can hear it the difference in the right conditions regardless of what "facts and figure boys say" as I'm no mutant, honest

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

@MaryWhitehouse Yep, I spend the total amount of £30 (at that time) on a better USB cable from one that came free with my printer. Yes, I could hear the harshness from that cheap printer cable which you find funny. What I find funny and in quite amazing is that people can hear it the difference in the right conditions regardless of what "facts and figure boys say" as I'm no mutant, honest

So you can explain why the more expensive cable transmitted that data differently from one end to the other?

 

[ShanePJ]

They may not transmit it differently at the core if the same material is used, but materials do conduct differently. There is also a better level of insulate that help reduce unwanted noise whether you believe it or not and at the back of my system is the worst spaghetti junction you have ever seen

You are aware that all cables are just aerials and the job is to pull information in regardless of where it gets it.

The worst example of this was a house I went to which I'd not been to before, but someone had carried out some decorating and never bother labeling the cables for freeview. Even though they were picking up some of the freeview channels. many were missing and other TV's in the house had no signal what so ever. Logically I suspected it was the junction box causing the issue.

It wasn't and oddly the cable connected incorrectly to the TV upstairs was which had been plugged directly into the TV downstairs was picking up freeview. Once I'd figured this out and back traced where each cable ran, I was able to get everything working. But I wouldn't have believed a 75 Ohms TV cable which was about 15 feet long could have picked up freeview signal (the transmitter was many miles away to) from inside the house, but it did.

This is why I always try to make sure the insulation is up to the job with cables I buy as I cannot stop all the issues that come with electronics, yet I can make sure the signal which has left one component will hopefully be received in the best condition it can.

Also note, I'm not one of these people who believes only expensive cables matter, I believe a good cable is a good cable regardless of its price

 

[MaryWhitehouse]

I agree with a lot of that for analogue cabling

 

[bjd]

I had exactly the same experience, but with a printer. Supplied cheapie cable, all prints be like "/@÷ &€*÷ =/€$* /=%@*€". Bought a £500 cable and straight away a very obvious increase in data transmission accuracy. Now all prints be like "One born every minute"