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TMREQ - The really easy way!

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by UrbanT, Sep 15, 2004.

  1. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Hi guys

    I've now finished the guide I promised to write, on the easy method of using TMREQ. It is available for download in a .pdf file from the TMREQ section of my website (if you have previously visited the site, the button may still read 'Download' until you refresh).

    Constructive criticism always welcome, but please remember this is designed to appeal to the simple people like me :)

    Also any thoughts on making this a sticky to help future visitors?

    Cheers
    Chris
     
  2. Bogi

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    Nice work Chris. :clap:

    I haven't tried all out yet but it looks liek a really smooth procedure. :D

    The only thing would be to have a nice easy procedure to verify correct cross-over setttings. :)

    Cheers
     
  3. @Home

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    Hi Urban

    I followed the link in your posting to your website and click on the download button - but nothing happened. So I refreshed, still no joy.
    Perhaps I'm missing something?

    Could you put a direct link to the download?

    Cheers
     
  4. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Hi there @Home. I think your browser may be caching? The page used to be called 'Download' but had nothing on it.

    The new page is now called TMREQ and works fine (just checked on several machines here :)). If your page says Download, and is blank, trying ctrl-F5. Let me know if this doesn't work, and I'll post some direct links for you
     
  5. @Home

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    Hi Urban

    That worked a treat - thanks for the help :clap: .

     
  6. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    No problem. If you try it, please let us know how you get on :)
     
  7. GrahamMG

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    Hi Chris.

    Not bad mate, even some of my team can follow that ;)

    Observations, I think between us we have decided that -22dB is the correct level to do this at? I am not at all sure why its -22dB though but John is working on that one, does John have any views yet?

    Once John has the "C" weighting compensation version released that sorts another issue. Seeing as most will use the analogue RS meter I wonder if we may need to use the calibration offset for that particular meter?

    Do you feel brave enough to add a missive on cross over frequency setting between sub and mains?

    I always set my fronts as "full range" in the AV menu, I wonder if this setting has any effect?

    All in all a very nice way to do TMREQ and has already spauned a few wishes for John to tear himself away from his 993 to make all this automatic. Excellent stuff and makes far better reading than a few unfortunate chaps with broken kit.
     
  8. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Hi Graham, thanks for the comments.

    The document is easily updated, so any changes I'm more than happy to make. If its decided -22db is the correct setting, thats a quick change. Let me know

    I'd be happy to add info re cross over frequency, but don't think I would know how to write a simple guide for it. Would you be prepared to write a passage to be added regarding this? I think the only important thing is thats its simple to understand for the layman, to keep with the theme of the document. What do you think?
     
  9. GrahamMG

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    Hi Chris.

    -22dB looks like it for now but I'd wait until John replies. I'm also not sure there is an easy way of getting the bass crossover right, I think we would have to measure the slope on both main and sub and see where they cross and effectively pick a point where there isn't too much of a dip, can we overlay two plots on Johns wizard? I suppose the long way of running both sub and front speakers and measuring in ETF to see if it is a nice curve is always the fall back position. I must admit that I haven't given this much thought at all for some time now.....
    John???
     
  10. JohnMulcahy

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    The wizard allows the measured and/or corrected sub plots to be overlaid for any speaker. There is no particularly scientific way to pick the crossover frequency, make measurements with the speakers set as full range and see where the response starts to fall away.
     
  11. GrahamMG

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    Hi John.

    Are we all agreed then that a volume setting of -22dB = 75dB at the outputs? Final checking of speaker calibration at 75dBc shouldn't then upset anything? Found our why its apparently 2dB off?

    Now sub crossover etc..........I'd love to apply science but...... A couple of things, what effect (or not) have the various settings whilst doing TMREQ in this new way. I can understand the full range bit for the mains naturally, but what about LFE cut-off frequency, THX boundary gain and Bass redirection settings?

    I'll assume the THX boundary gain isn't necessary once TMREQ has done its stuff?

    I suppose the other settings have an appropriate slope built in to achieve a smooth transition without dips?

    Lets assume that my speakers are flat to the 80Hz THX cut-off and the sub set also to 80Hz, should that be "job done"?
     
  12. JohnMulcahy

    JohnMulcahy
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    Well, I've just repeated the spl measurements, this time using the software I've written this weekend for the Wizard to read spl values, and got the same results as previously measured with a 3rd party app: for the same spl from the sine wave gen as from the speaker cal test signal, the volume needs to be set to -22dB.

    THX boundary gain compensation is just a bit of high pass filtering to roll off the bass response. I would not use it personally, if the low end needs reducing because of proximity to room boundaries then try using TMREQ low shelf filters to compensate.

    Measurements should be taken with the LFE cutoff at the figure you intend to use afterwards. When measuring a main channel and comparing it to the ideal bass management profile the wizard shows, bass redirection needs to be off otherwise the sub will be filling in the low end. When making a measurement with bass redirection on, the target is a flat response.

    As far as the Wizard updates are concerned, compensation for C weighting is in, the data import no longer gets annoyed by blank lines within or at the end of text files, the controls for selecting the audio device, input and channel are in as is record level control (if the device supports it, some USB cards do not offer any level control on their inputs) along with displays of input peak level and the SPL level. The updated wizard requires JRE 5.0 (currently available as a release candidate on Sun's website). Unfortunately it looks like it will not be possible to maintain compatibility with the current .req and .mdat file formats for filter sets and measured data sets respectively, i.e. the updated wizard will not be able to load files saved from previous versions and vice versa. Lots still to do though :).
     
  13. lenny

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    Good morning,

    I'm actually applying the UrbanT method for TMREQ. I got the measurements for the front speakers and for the sub.

    I corrected each frequency response curb following its excellent paper ( :thumbsup: UrbanT : you are on the way to make simple what it is not!) but now I would like to compare the three corrected curbs in order to choose the right crossover frequency and, if needed make some adjustments on the settings I've done. I suspect that the actual response is a little bit too strong on the lower frequencies and that depends upon the merging of the three responses.

    The TMREQ wizard (2.1) let me import the data for the three speakers but the filter settings for only one speaker at time. :lease: Is there any "trick" in order to charge the "corrected" curbs and compare them in order to optimize the whole frequency response?

    Thank you in advance of your help!

    Best regards Leo.
     
  14. Steve.EX

    Steve.EX
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    Top work fella's.
     
  15. JohnMulcahy

    JohnMulcahy
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    The wizard actually has all the filter settings for all channels, it shows the set for the currently selected speaker. Simply select the speaker whose filters you want to correct and tweak away :).
     
  16. lenny

    lenny
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    Hi John,

    thanks for your answer. Unfortunately it does not work.
    Just to give you more details:
    What I've done:
    i) I'm using TMREQ wizard 2.1 without the possibility to download the filter settings directly to the AV192R.
    ii) I've created the text files for the right and left speakers and the subwoofer following the UrbanT methodology.
    iii) I've tried to optimise each single curb playing with the wizard.
    iv) Once I got a result I liked I saved the filter settings using the ctrl + s.

    Now I would like to see the three "corrected curbs" on the same graphic in order to identify "at a glance" potential problems. In order to do so I'm :
    i) importing the measured data (ctrl-i) for each speaker
    ii) loading the filter settings (ctrl-l) for each speaker also.

    After that process in the TMREQ wizard there are the imported data of all the speakers and the loaded filter settings of ONLY the last speaker I've loaded...
    The result is that (excepted for the last speaker), when I select, on the top right of the screen, the "name of speaker" meas or the "name of speaker" corr the two curbs are identical and are the ones referred to the imported data (so before correction).

    Have I done something wrong? How should I proceed in order to work on the three (and with the six when I'll purchase the other speakers) "corrected curbs" at the same time to flat out the whole frequency response of my system in my environment? Is there any document which explains how to use the wizard?

    Your help is going to be much appreciated!


    Best regards Leo.
     
  17. JohnMulcahy

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    Hi Leo,

    When you save filter settings with ctrl-s the wizard saves all filter settings for all speakers, they are all then available when that set is loaded again. The wizard is always working with all speakers' measured data and all speakers' filter settings, but if you have only set up one speakers' filters when you save a set and the others are all empty at the time, when you later load that set in it will only have that one speaker's filters.

    The method to use is:

    Load the measurement data for a speaker and adjust the filters to correct the response. Then load the measurement data for the next speaker and correct that, then the next etc. When all speakers are corrected, save the set of filters using ctrl-s. You can also save the set of measurement data for all speakers using the "Save measurement data as a set" option on the File menu, and load it back in later as a set rather than importing individual measurement files.

    Documentation for the wizard is pretty sparse, there are some pdfs of articles from the website but the wizard evolved after they were written. They tended to deal with one channel as an example of what to do, so I can understand it is easy to think that the wizard only deals with one channel at a time, but it is more capable than it looks :).

    I'll add an item on the Wizard todo list to allow loading an individual speaker's filters rather than all at once, but can't promise when I'll get around to implementing it. In the meantime if you check your saved filter set files you may find the last one you did has the filters for all speakers as long as you did not shut down and restart the wizard for each speaker. I'd also highly recommend getting the unit comms license, it is very cheap and means you can read all the filter settings straight out of the unit, it will also be rather useful when the wizard gains the ability to automate more aspects of the correction process.
     
  18. lenny

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    I got my mistake: I've saved each speaker one by one going out from the wizard each time I started a new one... :oops:

    I'll correct that and start playing again.

    As soon the new release of the wizard will be ready I'll be between your first customers!

    I'll also pay the license for the wizard: the thing which prevented me to do so is that, apparently, I need to buy a new license each time I change the laptop... an I change it each year...

    Regards, Leo
     
  19. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Ah yes the licence being install specific......Barry and John know my thoughts on that one...........I also have laptops that come and go.......The thing is that every time the wizard is installed it will ask for a different unlock code. I can understand why this is so but I get the feeling that just buying the whole wizard and get a serial number might be more sensible as disks fail, applications get corrupted and profiles bugger things up occasionally. Mind you a sympathetic ear from Barry or John when something outside of your control happens might be worth a go ;)
    It's only a tenner but the grief of re-installing XP and all those programs and then finding that your wizard won't work tips the balance occasionally......

    This sort of thing is a sign of the times but very irritating for the honest ones.....
     
  20. derekn

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    Only a tenner? My Wizard unlock code cost me £29.95 today ........ I trust it will be worth it!
     
  21. GrahamMG

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    Blimey....... :eek: :eek:
    Inflation????

    If John gets the whole wedge then thats fine with me as he has put in a lot of hard work on this. If he isn't then it does smack of "making hay whilst the sun shines" or do IAG know what John is about to make the wizard do........
    I sincerely hope that existing unlock codes will work with new versions of the wizard :lease:
     
  22. JohnMulcahy

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    Actually the Wizard has been that price since it was first put in the price list in Sept 2003. None of it comes to me, although the Wizard was a spare time activity I wasn't then and am not now trying to make money out of it, it's just a hobby :)

    Current license codes will continue to work.
     
  23. lenny

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    30£/year are like the yearly income taxes! I'm not happy at all to pay that money each year or each time I change my computer...
    I'll discuss the issue with the helpdesk. We need to find a solution : the onest should not pay for the "others". The real question is : how TAG/IAG can be sure that we are not messing it up? They need also to protect their business...

    Any suggestions?
     
  24. lenny

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    Good evening TMREQ experts,

    I've applied successfully the UrbanT method and I'm satisfied with the results even if I'm not at all sure being at the optimum...
    I was wondering if I should go over 200Hz on the measurement for the front - center and back speakers.
    Reading the TMREQ case study, pages 29 and 30, you can realize that two corrections are performed at 225Hz and 525Hz... well above the 200Hz.
    Any piece of advice?

    Regards, Lenny
     
  25. JohnMulcahy

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    It can certainly be useful to scan through frequencies up to a few hundred Hz, but some care is needed. The results can be very location dependent, i.e. a small movement of the SPL meter may give a very different result. If a consistently emphasised range is found then it is certainly worth trying a filter to smooth that out, the remote control can be used to enable and disable that specific filter to see whether it is having a beneficial effect.
     
  26. lenny

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    Got it: thank you John.
    I'll not be systematic as I've been between 20 and 200Hz (the UrbanT method is a manual one!). So I'll let the test signal to scan frequencies above 200 and if I spot a problem I'll focalize around that point in order to see whether or not there is any improvement putting a filter. I assume that the few hundred you are talking about is no more than 500Hz.
    Regards. Leonardo
     
  27. GrahamMG

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    I stand corrected on the cost of the licence...... I must also say that John's efforts on the wizard should be universally supported by the owners and IAG alike. Many people sell stuff that is far far worse than this......If IAG are charging £30 a time for the two way comms feature and it is now obvious John doesn't get anything, I'd say that is questionable practise by IAG and not something that sits well with me......Either give John his just rewards or forget the charge.

    BTW I am very good at breaking the unit code feature (being a :censored: head normally but not always the case) so it could get costly if the licence issue isn't revised so to give no grief to the "honest".

    I wish I could do these "hobbies" that well.....Keep up the good work John, I for one deeply appreciate it.
     
  28. Neale

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    John
    Thanks from me as well having a ball with my system
     
  29. lenny

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    Good morning TMREQ users!

    Last weekend I recalibrated my system because I’ve changed the position of the speakers.

    The first time I've done a calibration, more than 1 month ago, I've used the filter set up wizard to generate the calibration noise for each speaker.

    This time I’ve strictly respected the UrbanT procedure going into each filter for each speaker and strictly using sine test signal and applying the suggestions that heve risen in this forum (Ex. : volume at -22dB, speakers at full range, subwoofer without any AV192 cutoff's setting...).

    In order to make a comparison with the filter set up wizard, I've then made a short trial with it and here the surprise: the noise coming from the speakers was different and, more important, the noise level reached peaks much higher than using the sine test signal.

    I suppose that the noise produced by the AV192 when using the filter set up wizard is not a sine type (is it a "pink" noise?) but I'm not able to give a rational explanation to the great increase in the levels that my SPL was reading (sometimes more than 6dB at the same frequency) when using the filter set up wizard; This was particularly impressive with the subwoofer.

    Have you experimented that before? Have I done any mistake? Is it better to use the sine test signals or the one produced by the filter set up wizard? Any suggestion on how to extract the best from the TMREQ will be more than welcome.

    Regards,


    Lenny
     
  30. lenny

    lenny
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    Any insight? John, UrbanT?

    Regards,Lenny
     

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