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THX Ultra2

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by keyser, Nov 18, 2002.

  1. keyser

    keyser
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    Are there any amplifiers that have it besides the top end Pioneer.

    Are the manufacturers not goint to have it on slightly less expensive models?

    What ultra2 does is it makes 6.1 surround of of any 5.1 (or was it stereo) source... kinda like pl2 makes 5.1 out of stereo. Is that correct?
     
  2. EvilMudge

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    The top Denon (the 1SR) has Ultra 2 processing and supposedly the top Marantz will have it as an upgrade soon. Most of the more expensive stand alone processors have it now (those that are THX certified)

    It's very unlikely it will appear on mid-range models as
    a) It differentiates the top models from the mid-range and so boosts their sales
    &
    b)THX Ultra 2 licensing and certification is expensive, both in terms of R&D, but also construction of the unit - ask John Dawson about this.

    What it actually does is create a convincing soundstage across four rear speakers no matter what the source material is. It's supposed to combine the old de-correllation processing and the EX processing under one umbrella - giving you stereo sides and a surround back with any 5 channel material, even PL II.
     
  3. chrismoore

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    The new pioneer VSX D2011 has THX ultra 2. You can view it on the Krish website www.krishav.co.uk/ It also has the...ng it for slightly less Hope this is of help
     
  4. EvilMudge

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    Uh, last time I checked the D-2011 was a THX Select product. Might be worth a laugh trying to force an AX-10 out of anyone advertising the D-2011 as having THX Ultra 2 - since they blatantly don't know what they're talking about.

    FTR There is another Pioneer amp, with THX Ultra 2, which is called the AX-8 in Japan and the 47TX in the US. If it ever reached these shores it should be about the same price as Denon's 11SR.
     
  5. LostInUK

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  6. Gadjet

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    Just an opinion on THX Ultra 2,

    While watching Independant Day on DVD, at a good point in the film where there is great use of DD I stopped the film rewinded it a couple of time switching from DD to Ultra 2.
    The difference being that the sound was across the back 4 using all 4 speakers but it needed for a better word more concentration to hear what side each sound came from. What I mean was from DD you could hear the "UFO" come from left to right, right to left which was tidy, but with ultra 2 the sound came more just from the back. Hope you know what I mean. DD sounded like DD but Ultra 2 sounded like PL2.

    This is just preferance point of view not right or wrong, I like to be able to pin point the sound whereas other poeple may like it from all around the back with not as much clarityof angle of sound.

    By the way what a film to show off your system, it even used dialog from the rear speakers as well as all the action scenes.

    Take care Phill
    PS. If it matters my amp is AX 10 by the way.
     
  7. Jase

    Jase
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    THX Ultra II is a 7.1 mode (it has two seperate modes, Movie & Music) on my upgraded Denon A1SE you cannot select it unless you have two surround back speakers.
     
  8. chips

    chips
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    Hmm........my Onkyo 989 (UPG 2) will not let me select THX Ultra2 with PLII. Can you do this with other makes?:confused:
     
  9. EvilMudge

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    Could be my mistake. For all we know, Ultra 2 might actually use the PL2 process to create four surround channels - in which case you'd need the kind of DSP power only found in the best recievers and processors to use PL2 and then Ultra 2 on top of it.

    What I've heard is that Ultra 2 derives the surround back channel from the stereo rears, applies de-correllation to the remaining stereo channels, then de-correllates the surround back channels. The ultimate goal is to have a totally diffuse surround just like the one Gadjet get's with his setup.
     
  10. Craig Sowerby

    Craig Sowerby
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    Hi,

    After reading various posts regarding THX Technologies i can see that some people have a fair understanding of what THX is all about.

    Here are a few facts regarding THX.

    1982: After extensive research, Lucasfilm engineers develop the ideal environment for mixing rooms, from which the THX system is developed. First THX mixing room opens at Lucasfilm.

    And Jumping forward a few years.

    1994: THX Audio System demonstrates a 5.1 digital format at CES.

    Jumping through time again.

    1999: THX develops Surround EX in conjunction with Dolby Labs.

    This is just a very brief history of some of the key developments
    THX has made in the last twenty years, their are many more!

    Here are just three of the problems that are common in the translation from the cinema to the home.

    Exessive high freqencies.

    Incorrect frequency response.

    poor dynamic range.

    I'm sure some of you already know what THX post processing is,
    but for you who don't here is just a very simple and brief summary.

    Re-Equalization - Corrects over-bright front channels.

    Bass Management - Improves Bass dynamic range.

    Timbre Matching - Smoothes front to surround pans.

    Decorrelation - Enhanced surround spaciousness and envelopment.



    Now a few facts regarding THX Ultra2.

    But wait!

    How many people out their are listening to non-surround EX encoded DVD's in the surround EX mode? Quite a few i think.

    The problem with this of course is when monaural surround information is played in the THX Surround EX mode, all of the surround information is sent only to the rear surround speakers.

    Thats where THX Ultra2 comes into play.

    Firstly THX Ultra2 is designed to improve Multi-channel film and music playback when using a 5.1 or 6.1 channel system, remember their is no 7.1 channel format, THX enables us to use 7 speakers although it is possible to have up to 8 channels for DVDA.

    In THX Ultra2 cinema mode the EX flag is detected (if present) and the system is auto configured.

    But what if there is no flag, or it's non-Surround EX material?

    In THX Ultra2 cinema mode, ASA (advanced speaker array)
    technology is applied to the surround tracks such that the ambient information is reproduced by the left and right surrounds and directional cues are provided by the two surround back speakers placed centrally behind the listeners.

    For monaural surround tracks the signal is fed both directly to the back surround speakers and after decorrelation to the left and right surround speakers.

    With discreet surround tracks (films or music),
    the surround signals are fed unprocessed to the left and right surround speakers and, after further processing,
    to the surround back speakers.

    This gives an enveloping rear surround field over a very wide listening area.

    You can still benefit from THX post processing even if you do not have a THX certified speaker system.


    These are just a few facts regarding THX, hope they are useful.

    I'm sure that their are lots of questions as i have only touched on the subject, but if anybody is thinking of a THX system or part of one, then their are qualified THX installers/dealers
    out there that will be able to help.
     
  11. EvilMudge

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    Thanx Craig - you've managed to explain what I couldn't really get my head around.

    Just as a throwaway question, do most of your installs with THX amplification use THX certified speaker sets? Or do most people do without that extra THX badge?
     
  12. keyser

    keyser
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    Improved bass dynamic range? Doesn´t THX cut the frequency of the surrounds at 70hz??
     
  13. jeroen999

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    Hello Craig
    Can you tell me this ,what would be better sounding in 5.1.?
    Thx or DD?
    Or does this depends on the dvd?
    And is in your opinion an thx ultra 2 certified processor always better than one thats not certified ?

    hope you have time to answer?

    greetings jeroen
     
  14. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Sorry Jeroen but i think you may have the wrong end of things regarding what THx actually is by reading you post, I hope i can explain this.............

    THX is not a surround technology, i.e. it is not a surround format like dts or DD, but rather an add on in terms of decoding.
    The soundtrack is decoded in DD/dts and then by adding THX on top of this you add their technology which is designed to change certain things to mimic a theatre set up etc. such as decoloration(sp) timbre matching, and high frequency roll off.
    Now you may already know this, but reading your post it appears you might be confusing the two.

    Craig,
    Good post, very informative.
     
  15. keyser

    keyser
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    But doesn´t thx processing usually limit the low frequencies to the surrounds... to 70hz if I remember correctly.
     
  16. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    In THX mode all speakers are set to small (80hz cut off) and the bass sent to the sub as well as lfe.

    This is the prefered set up option these days as there are very few Full range speakers(20hz-20khz)
    Most of the biggest sound engineers in the world use this approach for both music and movie production and use brands such as M&K,B&W and Blue Sky.
     
  17. keyser

    keyser
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    So THX doesn´t really work for me.. I have no sub, just 7 very large full range speakers( I think it sounds much better than having a single sub)?? That kinda makes thx not work for me doesn´t it?
     
  18. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    What you using?
     
  19. keyser

    keyser
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    I have Definitive Tech. bp2006tl´s as fronts, clr 2300 center (all have inbuilt subs), and bp2x surrounds. I know I CAN connect some of the inbuilt subs to the amps sub out.. but that´s something I´m really not interrested in doing.

    This thx thing of cutting the low end and sending it to the subs makes no sense to me, as I think full range speakers all around sound much better, especially with the latest soundtracks that really have full range surrounds, and the center sounds so much better that way.
     
  20. jeroen999

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    Craig, thank you for your explanation!

    Indeed I confused 2 things.
    But maybe you know this.
    on the av8 you can switch on thx and you can play without the thx .
    What would be better sounding?because I have the feeling that when I switch on the thx button a (for instans)fly over, from left to right is less clear then when THX is switched of .
    Is this possible??They seems less separated from eachother
    (the speakers I mean)

    hope you know
    Thanx
    regards Jeroen
     
  21. Craig Sowerby

    Craig Sowerby
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    Hi,

    As a Definitive Technology Authorised Dealer i can say without
    doubt that your speakers are good, and you are obviously
    very happy with them.
    It's a shame that they are no longer distributed in the UK.

    It is unlikley that You would benefit from THX post processing with your speakers.

    Also THX is not a decoding method as i think i mentioned on my previous post.

    Hope this is helps.
     
  22. keyser

    keyser
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    Craig,

    there is no definitive dealer here in iceland. I just ordered them without ever having heard them and I was not disapointed, they look fantastic and sound great, only thing is the power cord´s are a bit short.

    A testament of how much bass is in the center channel that most are missing.. when I had the speaker ontop of my widescreen crt the bass in the center made the tv rumble so much that there came a massive interferance, the kind that comes when you hit hard ontop of your tv while watching. This center speaker sounds fantastic.
     
  23. Guest

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    keyser

    Interesting stuff.

    I'm not familiar with your speakers, so sorry for asking this.
    What do you class as full range?


    Currently, i'm setting fire to my HGS-18.

    ;)

    Adzman...
     
  24. EvilMudge

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    If you check out DT's website you will find that their speakers have very odd frequency responses.

    Keyser, I assume your centre really does handle more than 22Hz - 30Hz ;)

    LCR speakers

    Otherwise the HGs-18 would appear to be a better centre speaker.

    P.S. I am taking the p***, I'm sure these are very good speakers, although they need to employ a better proof reader for their website!
     
  25. keyser

    keyser
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    EvilMudge,

    I have no idea what you are talking about. The site sais that they go down to 22hz(dvd´s only send out to 20hz right?), which I presume is correct. But they have an inbuilt amplifier so I can really crank upp the bass. What do you mean by odd frequency responses??
     
  26. chips

    chips
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    Misprint on their website which says 22Hz - 30Hz...........Should be 22Hz - 30KHz.;)
     
  27. klnc

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    Sorry to labour the point, but since wiring in 2 surround back speakers to my amp (denon a1sr), i have been only able to play DD discs in DD EX mode (and THX Surround EX and THX Ultra2)...

    This confuses me a bit as i would only expect to be able to play a straight DD disc in DD and THX Ultra2 (if i want to add the additional post processing to "add" another channel for the backs). Surely DD EX and THX SEX are wrong?

    Any idea how i should change the settings?
     
  28. Phil Hinton

    Phil Hinton
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    Not too clued up on the 1SR, but on the other Denon models you can switch the surround back off. Why cant you do this on the 1SR?
     
  29. keyser

    keyser
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    On the 3802 you can choose if you have the back surrounds off, matrixed or non matrixed. When they are matrixed then tha amp calculates a back surround sound. So you have a matrixed DD EX.. so it isn´t wrong listening to DD in ex mode?
     
  30. UrbanT

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    The 1SR does allow you to turn off the back surrounds. By having them enabled it assumes you want to listen to material through them.

    Hope this clarifies :)
     

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