three cheers to Totnes and one in the eye for Global capitalism

la gran siete

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a perfect example when conservatism ,albeit with a small c ,is just right.The residents campaigned against Costa building a coffee outlet in their town and they have won.Democracy in action,Reason being is they do not want too many nationals in their town preferring instead to encourage local businesses to flourish.In fact it has one the lowest number of branded stores in the Uk.I believe if Adam Smith were alive today he would be proud of Totnes because it would reflect his belief in market place with lots of businesses all competing with one another but also a spirit of cooperation to maintain what they all have.
Totnes is an unusual town in that has attracted artistic people right from the 1920's and, more lately , New Agers who want to live a rather less than conventional lifestyle.Indeed their Mp bucks the trend of your usual Tory and votes against the Government as and when she thinks its appropriate an example being the NHS reforms bill
How Totnes won fight to keep Costa out of town | Business | The Observer
 
la gran siete said:
a perfect example when conservatism ,albeit with a small c ,is just right.The residents campaigned against Costa building a coffee outlet in their town and they have won.Democracy in action,Reason being is they do not want too many nationals in their town preferring instead to encourage local businesses to flourish.In fact it has one the lowest number of branded stores in the Uk.I believe if Adam Smith were alive today he would be proud of Totnes because it would reflect his belief in market place with lots of businesses all competing with one another but also a spirit of cooperation to maintain what they all have.
Totnes is an unusual town in that has attracted artistic people right from the 1920's and, more lately , New Agers who want to live a rather less than conventional lifestyle.Indeed their Mp bucks the trend of your usual Tory and votes against the Government as and when she thinks its appropriate an example being the NHS reforms bill
How Totnes won fight to keep Costa out of town | Business | The Observer

Naive. If they preferred the local coffee shops then why not let Costa set up and then frequent their preferential coffee shops. That smacks of anti-competition of which Adam Smith would not be impressed. The more choice the better. It may well be that visitors decide not to bother with buying anything if they can't find a Costa and then business has been lost. I'm not a big fan of national outlets, strangely we have all of them in our town and the independents are usually full to overflowing, while costa is relatively quiet so it certainly shows that a National isn't guaranteed to take business. I do notice however that it is often day visitors that use Costa, which leaves the locals to enjoy the independents without queuing.
 
I'm not sure where the victory is here, other than perhaps their PR department. Costa Coffee (a British company BTW) were awarded planning permission, but they've chosen not to proceed.

Last time I went to Totnes is was full of hippy shops all selling the same Made in China tat anyway. That said, it's quite a pretty place and despite the preponderance of ageing dippy-hippies, it hasn't become a cesspit of degenerates, like Brighton.
 
I'm not sure where the victory is here, other than perhaps their PR department. Costa Coffee (a British company BTW) were awarded planning permission, but they've chosen not to proceed.

Last time I went to Totnes is was full of hippy shops all selling the same Made in China tat anyway. That said, it's quite a pretty place and despite the preponderance of ageing dippy-hippies, it hasn't become a cesspit of degenerates, like Brighton.


"ageing dippy-hippies" :laugh: :smashin:
 
I'm not sure I agree with this. Better to let consumers make their own choices. It's not as if Costa will undercut local coffee and tea shops going by their prices.
 
Naive. If they preferred the local coffee shops then why not let Costa set up and then frequent their preferential coffee shops. That smacks of anti-competition of which Adam Smith would not be impressed. The more choice the better. It may well be that visitors decide not to bother with buying anything if they can't find a Costa and then business has been lost. I'm not a big fan of national outlets, strangely we have all of them in our town and the independents are usually full to overflowing, while costa is relatively quiet so it certainly shows that a National isn't guaranteed to take business. I do notice however that it is often day visitors that use Costa, which leaves the locals to enjoy the independents without queuing.

There is nothing remotely naive about it.what we have here is thriving community who basically want most businesses to be locally owned, peopled and run.Seems very healthy to me besides they have enough coffee shops who offer far better coffee than Costa anyway and they probably cater for the kind of discerning clientele that would prefer not to buy from Costa .
My problem with nationals is that they create an illusion of competition as most of the outlets are owned by a few large companies and are replicated in shopping malls across the land.In Contrast with whats on offer in Totnes,they are soulless establishments that dont reflect the community they are situated in.My guess is that Totnes is more like England once was with lots of small shops run and worked in by people well known in the community with some of them being like social hubs
 
I was watching the Harry and Paul comedy tonight and there was a sketch about a dealer who sells cheap rubbish to stupid rich people at high prices. He had come to a hippy fair because all the rich people had turned into trendy hippies and were buying rubbish at high prices. It dawned on me that this was what the previous posters were going on about in Totnes:

Yep, sure enough,

http://densityofsound.com/unicycle-emptiness/?p=414

All the actual hippies have been replaced by rich, lifestyle hippies. Costa obviously was a bit working class for them, too much like the 'man'. Even though they haven't actually worked out that it is they that are 'the man'.

Still, free market is free market.:)
 
la gran siete said:
There is nothing remotely naive about it.what we have here is thriving community who basically want most businesses to be locally owned, peopled and run.Seems very healthy to me besides they have enough coffee shops who offer far better coffee than Costa anyway and they probably cater for the kind of discerning clientele that would prefer not to buy from Costa .
My problem with nationals is that they create an illusion of competition as most of the outlets are owned by a few large companies and are replicated in shopping malls across the land.In Contrast with whats on offer in Totnes,they are soulless establishments that dont reflect the community they are situated in.My guess is that Totnes is more like England once was with lots of small shops run and worked in by people well known in the community with some of them being like social hubs

I think I better get you up to my end of the world and take you around a few of our choice towns. When we get a Costa Coffee we know we have made it. Most of us press our, poor, thin, starving faces against the window and marvel at electric lights and posh folk drinking out of bone white cups. Then we go down the local greasy spoon for a cracked mug of scad gob.

How startling to realise there's them such places in Britain wore the lads and lasses are so rich they can kick such establishments oot and by authentic mugs of cracked scad gob for more money than me Dads pigeon coop and whippet run. Well anever.
 
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I think I better get you up to my end of the world and take you around a few of our choice towns. When we get a Costa Coffee we know we have made it. Most of us press our, poor, thin, starving faces against the window and marvel at electric lights and posh folk drinking out of bone white cups. Then we go down the local greasy spoon for a cracked mug of scad gob.

How startling to realise there's them such places in Britain wore the lads and lasses are so rich they can kick such establishments oot and by authentic mugs of cracked scad gob for more money than me Dads pigeon coop and whippet run. Well anever.


I am not against Costa as such, other than the appallingly low wages they pay their staff.They make huge profits off the back of low wages and tight running costs whilst charging a premium for their coffees.Like other nationals one of their major expenses are the kind of rip off rents the landowners charge for their premises ,which is the major reason why independents cannot compete and we end up with this bogus competition scenario in most shopping centres.What i like about Totnes is that it attempts to maintain its integrity with a community based shopping centre which could act as a tenplate for others towns to follow, therefore rather than ,say,a Mcdonalds we could see burger bars serving much better quality foodstuffs at reasonable prices.If the Nationals can be kept down to a minimum we could see rents drop in premium areas so as to allow the independents to flourish
 
la gran siete said:
I am not against Costa as such, other than the appallingly low wages they pay their staff.They make huge profits off the back of low wages and tight running costs whilst charging a premium for their coffees.Like other nationals one of their major expenses are the kind of rip off rents the landowners charge for their premises ,which is the major reason why independents cannot compete and we end up with this bogus competition scenario in most shopping centres.What i like about Totnes is that it attempts to maintain its integrity with a community based shopping centre which could act as a tenplate for others towns to follow, therefore rather than ,say,a Mcdonalds we could see burger bars serving much better quality foodstuffs at reasonable prices.If the Nationals can be kept down to a minimum we could see rents drop in premium areas so as to allow the independents to flourish

I'm all for independents instead of high street giants, but they are just another competitor in the market. Before the major coffee chains came about we were sitting on stools at Formica tops drinking instant coffee. It's a mistake not to allow them to take up residence alongside independents. As I said, in our town we have all three giants and I welcome them as they encourage visitors to spend in the other shops. We have all three of them and the independents actually flourish as a result of the extra attractiveness of a well known chain.
 
Do you have any evidence that independents pay their staff more?
i dont ,is that at all relevant? The thread is not about comparative rates of pay.:nono: I would have thought that was quite obvious , but since you mentioned it ,Costa can well afford to pay their staff better wages
 
I'm all for independents instead of high street giants, but they are just another competitor in the market. Before the major coffee chains came about we were sitting on stools at Formica tops drinking instant coffee. It's a mistake not to allow them to take up residence alongside independents. As I said, in our town we have all three giants and I welcome them as they encourage visitors to spend in the other shops. We have all three of them and the independents actually flourish as a result of the extra attractiveness of a well known chain.
well you see i dont just see them as just another competitor but as part of a thriving community.That last phrase is very important,particularly the word community.
i dont see keeping the giants out as a mistake at all, quite the reverse, and thats because they are trying to preserve something which works well for them and which is important to them.You see it is not just about individuals but about a whole community of peopleThey clearly see the giants as a threat and whilst Costa may provide a good alternative in towns where the only alternative is a few greasy cafes,Totnes boasts a considerable number of independent cafes servings good quality coffee.

another thing one must bear in mind is the a good independent probably offers it staff something nationals don't and that is a sense of belonging to enterprise, one which they can identify with and, as such, will do what they can to make thrive.Its very much a case of small is beautiful
 
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i dont ,is that at all relevant? The thread is not about comparative rates of pay.:nono: I would have thought that was quite obvious , but since you mentioned it ,Costa can well afford to pay their staff better wages

It is directly relevant! You said you don't like Costa due to their low wages. So presumably you must have some evidence that independents pay more, and are therefore more worthy of your support?
 
You seem to know a lot about Costa. What they pay their staff, what their running costs are etc etc.

I presume this isn't more LGS assumption nonsense and you obviously must work for them or have a close family member who does?
 
la gran siete said:
well you see i dont just see them as just another competitor but as part of a thriving community.That last phrase is very important,particularly the word community.
i dont see keeping the giants out as a mistake at all, quite the reverse, and thats because they are trying to preserve something which works well for them and which is important to them.You see it is not just about individuals but about a whole community of peopleThey clearly see the giants as a threat and whilst Costa may provide a good alternative in towns where the only alternative is a few greasy cafes,Totnes boasts a considerable number of independent cafes servings good quality coffee.

What happened to free choice?

If everyone prefers the independent coffee shops then Costa would soon go out of business (unless you are claiming that people would be coerced / forced to buy coffee from them?).

If not, then those that would prefer Costa have a right to have that option.

I don't see why this such a major issue...
:confused:
 
Greg said:
You seem to know a lot about Costa. What they pay their staff, what their running costs are etc etc.

I presume this isn't more LGS assumption nonsense and you obviously must work for them or have a close family member who does?

You'd think so, wouldn't you, and yet..........
:D
 
It is directly relevant! You said you don't like Costa due to their low wages. So presumably you must have some evidence that independents pay more, and are therefore more worthy of your support?
The comment was meant as an aside thats all make of it what you will.The catering industry has always been appallingly paid with long hours to boot. Its not about not liking Costa as such ,but an industry which pays its staff poorly.
 
la gran siete said:
The comment was meant as an aside thats all make of it what you will.The catering industry has always been appallingly paid with long hours to boot. Its not about not liking Costa as such ,but an industry which pays its staff poorly.

How much do the independent offer shops pay their staff?

How does this compare to the major chains?
:confused:

What would be a 'fair' wage for these people, and what would be the impact on prices at these coffee shops???
 
What happened to free choice?

If everyone prefers the independent coffee shops then Costa would soon go out of business (unless you are claiming that people would be coerced / forced to buy coffee from them?).

If not, then those that would prefer Costa have a right to have that option.

I don't see why this such a major issue...
:confused:

There is plenty of free choice within the town itself,no need for Costa.At the end of the day if you have something that works well ,why mess about with it by allowing an enterprise that could potentially harm what is there and what works well.If people are so desperate for Costa i am sure they could find it elsewhere.My guess is they are not hence the public resistance:lesson:
 
Well, I say good for Totnes. Every time I visit the UK now it seems that each town centre has become more and more identical. If you were parachuted into any modern shopping centre in any town, you would have to find your way to the station* to find out where you are.

(*invariably, 300M along the main mall, turn right at the toilets, down a couple of flights of stairs and there you are)

But hey, that is obviously what everyone wants. Nice clean, formulaic, same shops, same opening hours, same limited choice, souless and ubiquitous. Not enough car parking and the really poor people can still get there by bus. Modern pubs at each entrance serving alco-pops to under-age drunks who then make the shopping experience a misery. But after the multitudinous numbers of phone shops, coffee shops, pound shops, burger bars, opticians, chemists, travel agents, and the like, with a supermarket at each entrance (opposite the nouveau pubs)and a fountain in the middle surrounded by escalators, there is no room for real shops.

But you all love it! You must do, because they are everywhere.
 
Coffee shop manager salary is £17,320 on average
Coffee Shop Manager Average Salary

And in Costa, starting salary for a manager is £19k
COSTA COFFEE STORE MANAGER NEW STORE - Sheffield - Costa Coffee | JobisJob UK

Costa appear to pay above the average.

I'd suggest LGS that you are using your usual assumption and "feelings" for the facts, and not actual evidence.

and how many managers are there per shopHow much do the staff that actually do the work get paid?
 
la gran siete said:
There is plenty of free choice within the town itself,no need for Costa.At the end of the day if you have something that works well ,why mess about with it by allowing an enterprise that could potentially harm what is there and what works well.If people are so desperate for Costa i am sure they could find it elsewhere.My guess is they are not hence the public resistance:lesson:

Why would it harm what is there?

If it isn't wanted it would soon go out of business, if it is wanted why should people be denied it? Why should they 'have to go elsewhere' if they live in Totness??
:confused:
 

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