Answered This is the absurd setup Richer Sounds is trying to get me to buy

mymanmancuso

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Okay so I've just been to Richer Sounds to get a new set-up. Beginner audiophile here always wanted to do it and held up before i had the funds. My Budget is around £5k and this is what the salesmen there suggested. I'm looking for floorstanders, an amp plus one or two extras. My inputs will be mainly Spotify from an Iphone/MBP, a pro-ject turntable and a rane 2015 DJ mixer connected to CDJ's (am a dj by trade).

I listened to a few floorstanders they had in store and liked the detail and tight bass response of the Dali Opticon, more expensive focal I tried just lacked personality. Personally lean towards being a bass head but I hate muddled bass, needs to be strong but clear. As a DJ I guess it would be beneficial to something that sounds a little more like a high spec club system. I

I feel they ripped me off and I can do better. How would you fix this?
here's their list (prices in GBP)
 
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So have I got it right youve got the project turntable and streaming boxes already, so it's just the amps, speakers and speaker cables you need.

On first look I think you need to go to audio t or Sevenoaks and take their recommendations. Richer sounds is a budget retailer primarily and Dali speakers at £2k won't compete with some other better brands at this price.

It looks like the speakers are out of kilter with amps price. I'd be thinking similar price to Amps and speakers.

What is the room size and are you after the best audiophile sound as possible for your budget, so clarity, soudstange, dynamics etc. Or as a dj is volume really most important. Is that why they recommded only a fraction on speakers. What listening levels will you listen at. I'm taking it for home listening.
 
So have I got it right youve got the project turntable and streaming boxes already, so it's just the amps, speakers and speaker cables you need.

On first look I think you need to go to audio t or Sevenoaks and take their recommendations. Richer sounds is a budget retailer primarily and Dali speakers at £2k won't compete with some other better brands at this price.

It looks like the speakers are out of kilter with amps price. I'd be thinking similar price to Amps and speakers.

What is the room size and are you after the best audiophile sound as possible for your budget, so clarity, soudstange, dynamics etc. Or as a dj is volume really most important. Is that why they recommded only a fraction on speakers. What listening levels will you listen at. I'm taking it for home listening.

I normally mix on CDJ's (actual XDJ 1000s) I'm using here with KEF monitors directly plugged in and xone 32. Yeah Im confused as to why I should spend 3k on an amp and 1.3 on a speaker. Planning on visiting another store soon, if anyone can reccomend one in central London i'd be glad. The setup is for home use in my medium sized lounge, sound levels normal for a domestic set up though it is in a basement so might wanna crank it up if i'm listening to promo's or having a few people over but nothing drastic.
 
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I dunno if you were ripped off, but 225 pounds on an rca and usb cable is the same price of my amp
 
The Arcam irDAC-II is most likely redundant as the Roksan amp has got both USB audio (for connection to a computer) & Bluetooth aptX inputs, ie, same as the irDAC. What reason were you given to include the irDAC?
 
Have a look at mackie HR824's. They are the industry standard for bass response. (35Hz -20KHz +-1.5db) KMR audio in london may be able to demo them for you.

I decided against studio monitors as they sound too neutral. What I meant was that I'm looking for bassy speakers rather than standard ones? I might have misunderstood your comment.

Also I had no idea the amp had built in aptX, the salespeople claimed I needed to buy the irDAC to use bluetooth. Either they didn't know, or they oversold me both equally troubling. Also he said bluetooth is better quality than aux is this true?
 
'As a DJ I guess it would be beneficial to something that sounds a little more like a high spec club system' - have a listen to some suitable Pro/Prosumer level kit. with your budget you can included active speaker designs with a Pre Amp or mixer at the front end.

'I feel they ripped me off and I can do better' - the price of kit is no real indication of sound quality.

I have listen to some very enjoyable systems with kit combinations which looked completely out of whack in terms of pricing.

If you enjoyed the sound the combination you listened too produced you now have an idea of what you are searching for which will be helpful as you go listen to other systems.

As others have pointed out 'expensive' cables are something to be wary of.

Keep in mind loudspeakers can sound very different in differing rooms - ideally you short list some kit you can then try out at home.

Keep some budget for potential room treatments - needn't cost a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Joe
 
I'd be trying these make of speakers if I were you. Will work in medium size rooms like yours, can go loud if need be and sound punchy with good bass. You get the best of a good audiophile floorstander without compromising on sound quality, compared to bigger floor stander speakers (or with more drivers) which dont tend to compete on sound quality at the same price brackets, due to the size of cabinets and complexity, meaning you need to spend more on bigger speakers to get same audiophile sound but maybe not with the huge scale and soundstage a bigger driver and cabinet can create. That said these types of speakers can create huge sound defying their size and you'd be surprised.

Speakers

-Kudos x3 £2200
-spendor a6r, about £2500
-pmc twenty5 23 (my speakers), £2970
-Proac speakers like d20r. £2800

As regards amps you could try these

Amps

- musical fidelity m6si intergrated £2750
- cyrus ; pre2dac pre amp with dac and stereo 200 power amp £2750
- leema amps or amps from arcam as integrated route.

I'd avoid naim amps around this price, as you won't get much for your money relatively speaking for the same price, as makes like musical fidelity and Cyrus.

You didn't say how you are going to get the streaming to your hi fi, or if you need Dacs assuming cd and streaming sources have their own? so this may take spending down a bit. I'd spend as little as you can on dacs if the cd and streaming sources are decent and spend your money on amplification and speakers. I'm biased towards pmc but awesome speakers, as many others think and lovely bass rich sound which I think will suit. I think the pmc twenty5 23 is probably the best speaker in the class at this price at the moment which is why I chose it.

It should be achievable to get good discounts for package deals to make combinations of the above possible or maybe slightly over budget.
 
'As a DJ I guess it would be beneficial to something that sounds a little more like a high spec club system' - have a listen to some suitable Pro/Prosumer level kit. with your budget you can included active speaker designs with a Pre Amp or mixer at the front end.

'I feel they ripped me off and I can do better' - the price of kit is no real indication of sound quality.

I have listen to some very enjoyable systems with kit combinations which looked completely out of whack in terms of pricing.

If you enjoyed the sound the combination you listened too produced you now have an idea of what you are searching for which will be helpful as you go listen to other systems.

As others have pointed out 'expensive' cables are something to be wary of.

Keep in mind loudspeakers can sound very different in differing rooms - ideally you short list some kit you can then try out at home.

Keep some budget for potential room treatments - needn't cost a lot in the grand scheme of things.

Joe



I'd say that's not correct that the price of systems is not usually an indication of sound quality. To some extent but if you get steered to good brands, so if you see different retailers from independents to chains stocking x brand, and particularly specific makes within the brand commensurate with what magazines etc are reviewing well, you can be assured that as you spend more, you will get better sound quality between those makes and/or models.

Expensive cables are not something to be wary of, its just up to you if it's worth it which is dependent upon the your ears, the electronics kit you have and the cables you get. Most of the people who say be weary don't think cables matter, but let me assure you they do matter. But it seems from what you said you don't need many (only speaker cables?) and in any event I wouldn't advocate spending much on cables at this stage, other than basic cables, as not knowing the specific sound the hi fi makes until you get used to it, you would be taking decisions on cables based on what other people say and that's never a thing to do on cables! Only you can know if worth it with your system and ears etc with cables etc.
 
Also I had no idea the amp had built in aptX, the salespeople claimed I needed to buy the irDAC to use bluetooth. Either they didn't know, or they oversold me both equally troubling. Also he said bluetooth is better quality than aux is this true?
He was comparing apples with oranges, so a rather silly thing to say: aux is via a wired connection to an analogue source & aptX is a lossy compressed digital audio encoding transmitted wirelessly via Bluetooth (which may or may not have been converted from an analogue signal depending on the Bluetooth transmitter you are using at the source device).
 
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Here are some of my favourite floorstanders within your budget...
  1. KEF R500/R700
  2. PMC Twenty5 23
  3. Spendor A6r or used D7
and amps would be
  1. Leema Tucana 2 (used) or Leema elements
  2. Naim XS
  3. Rega Elicit
  4. Musical Fidelity
My advise would be to find a reputable dealer within your area and demo different systems to see which float your boat, my dealer is great and lets me home demo all the time. dealers like this are worth there weight in gold and can save you ££££'s

As for cables this is something a good retailer will be able to help you with, only when you hear the differences cables can make will you be able to appreciate what they can do. try not to listen to other people opinions on this matter and let your own ears do the talking.... you will be surprised!
 
Here are some of my favourite floorstanders within your budget...
  1. KEF R500/R700
  2. PMC Twenty5 23
  3. Spendor A6r or used D7
and amps would be
  1. Leema Tucana 2 (used) or Leema elements
  2. Naim XS
  3. Rega Elicit
  4. Musical Fidelity
My advise would be to find a reputable dealer within your area and demo different systems to see which float your boat, my dealer is great and lets me home demo all the time. dealers like this are worth there weight in gold and can save you ££££'s

As for cables this is something a good retailer will be able to help you with, only when you hear the differences cables can make will you be able to appreciate what they can do. try not to listen to other people opinions on this matter and let your own ears do the talking.... you will be surprised!


I don't rate the kef r500/r700 and the old pmc twenty 23 beat the r700 in my side by side tests (when I bought 20-23s) except for scale, as you'd expect but wasn't far off, but every other quality (detail,dynamics, realism, layering etc) else was better. So the 25-23 (I own) will easily outclass these kefs. Better/pricier kefs are good though. The spendor a6r just pipped the old 20-23s in reviews especially what hi fi, and having heard the spendor a6r it's a bit toppy in high frequencies so wouldn't probably suit your preferences in the smooth bass stakes compared to pmc. The d7 used on the other hand is very good bet and a different proposition to the a6r with loads of detail, dynamics, and scale and bass punch and smoothness.

I think the elicit would be under amp budget, the leema amps good, so would musical fidelity, Cyrus would work with spendor and I think pmc too. The naim under budget and the mf amp I mentioned would probably outperform the naim mentioned as would a cyrus pre dac and stereo 200 power amp which is a very good powerful amp too. As I say naim doesn't get you much for your money, even spending £2500 on naim I think musical fidelity and cyrus will outclass.

What do you think myman.....
 
It’s simple really, buy the combination that sounds best to your ears, as everybody’s perception is different.

As to cables, avoid anything made by Hi-Fi cable manufactures at all costs, as they are just ripping you off with the expensive rubbish they try and con you into buying, (NOTE: Not one Hi-Fi cable manufacture has ever been able to provide verifiable evidence that their cables make a difference, so don’t fall for the con) instead pop down to your local pro music store (Or online store) as they will provide you with proper cables (As used in pro studios etc.) that do the job they are supposed too, for a fraction of the price, of the rubbish that Hi-Fi cable manufactures try and con you into buying.

Hope this helps

Bill
 
£2800 = Roksan BLAK Stereo Amp
+£280 = 6yr extended warranty
£1199 = Dali Opticon 6
£_389 = Arcam IRDAC-II Bluetooth DAC
£13.25 = Atlas 1.5 Speaker wire - Qty 6 (let's hope that is 6 meters)
£_9.99 = Banana Plugs (4x)
£150 = Audioquest RCA
£109 = Audioquest USB


First, do you need a DAC, and why get a Bluetooth DAC when you can get the BlueSound NODE-2 Network Streaming device with high speed processor AND Bluetooth for £499?

The Roksan BLAK has a USB input and Bluetooth. The power is about 150w/ch to 8 ohms but only rated at 1khz. So again, why do you need the Arcam irDAC-II Bluetooth DAC?

And seriously, £13 for Speaker Wire but £150 for an RCA cable, that seem a bit out of balance.

Also, no Tone Controls on the amp, are you sure as a DJ that you do NOT want Tone Controls?

Also, will this be a DJ system? Will you be hauling it on the road? Or will this be your Home System?

The claimed 150w/ch is nice, but they fudged it a bit. I doubt it meets that standard 20hz to 20khz at the same distortion levels.Though I suspect easily over 100w/ch. Probably in the 120w/ch to 130w/ch range. That's still very nice.

By my estimates, the total comes to £5086

Let me put together a system, just as a sample, and see what I can come up with.

£_899/ea = Yamaha AS801, 100w/ch, High Quality DSD DACs with Optical, Coaxial, and USB-PC, Phono In, Sub Out.

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier

£1999/pr = Dali Opticon 8


DALI OPTICON 8Black Speakers Per Pair

£40/pr = Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade 2.5mm² Speaker Cable 3m PAIR with Banana Plugs Installed.


Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade Black Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£36/pr = Fisual Rio Custom Stere RCA Cable - 2m (Top Rated)

Fisual Rio Custom Made Stereo Phono / RCA Cable - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£26/ea = Fisual Havana USB Cable 1.4m (Top Rated)(Currently on sale £10)

Fisual Rio Custom Made Stereo Phono / RCA Cable - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£_899 = amp with DAC
£1999 = bigger speakers
£__40 = speaker wire
£__36 = RCA
£__26 = USB
-----------------------------
£3000 = Total

So, for another £500 you can add the Bluesound NODE-2 Network Streaming.

Alternative amps -

£1195 = Rotel RA-1570, 125w/ch, DAC

Rotel RA1570 Amplifier With DAC - Superfi

£1895 = Rotel RA-1592, 200w/ch, DAC

Rotel RA-1592 - Trade in Available - Nintronics.co.uk

The 200w/ch Rotel RA-1592 and the larger Opticon 8 would take you to about £4000, that would leave you an additional £1000 for misc. If you bought that package and added Network Streaming (£500), that would still leave you £500 for wire and cable, and other misc.

Just presenting some alternatives.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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First: you are above Richer Sounds budget range, they have very little product in that price range.

Second: buy one item at a time, demoing carefully as you go. Take your time.

Third: you can get lots of performance for that money.

Fourth: don't listen to a bunch of nutters on a forum about what to buy any more than you listen to the sales guy.. ;)
 
Mymanmancuso, your instincts are correct. That Richer sounds system, especially the £2800 amplifier does not represent good value for money, nor good sound quality for the money.

Last time I went to Richer Sounds they had 0 speakers that I'd be interested in buying. Same with Sevenoaks.

You will not get any sort of value for money by buying brand new or nearly new from a dealers.

You will be very lucky if you ever get good advice from a dealer.


Speakers like Goodmans Magisters may well be right up your street. Something with a set of good quality drivers, with large to huge bass cone area, preferably in sealed box. It's worth buying a pair of speakers like this for c£200 and using them as a baseline to compare against anything more expensive that you fancy.

Go on German ebay and you'll be able to buy a high end (probably Japanese vintage) integrated or pre-power combination for a lot less than that Roksan. Alternatively, buy a used solid state integrated for £20 and use that as a baseline to decide if any other amplifier that you fancy is worth the extra or not.


The thing with going into a dealers with a £5k budget is that you will be steered towards spending all of it - plus maybe a little bit more.
The sensible, wise thing to do is to spend as little of your budget as you can to achieve a sound that you are happy with.
 
i bought one of these, its built like a tank abrahamsen v20up amplifier cost me £900, more than enough grunt for me. I took it to audio t and auditioned various speakers with my music on a usb stick
 
Doesnt the Roksan have a 5 year warranty anyway? Is the 6 year extended onto the 5 year? If not they have definitely ripped you off as all you are getting is 1 extra year.

You are best off finding an independent retailer with that amount of money to spend.
 
I normally mix on CDJ's (actual XDJ 1000s) I'm using here with KEF monitors directly plugged in and xone 32. Yeah Im confused as to why I should spend 3k on an amp and 1.3 on a speaker. Planning on visiting another store soon, if anyone can reccomend one in central London i'd be glad. The setup is for home use in my medium sized lounge, sound levels normal for a domestic set up though it is in a basement so might wanna crank it up if i'm listening to promo's or having a few people over but nothing drastic.

It might be worth giving Sevenoaks Chelsea a call, the store owner Anthony is a DJ himself.
 
£2800 = Roksan BLAK Stereo Amp
+£280 = 6yr extended warranty
£1199 = Dali Opticon 6
£_389 = Arcam IRDAC-II Bluetooth DAC
£13.25 = Atlas 1.5 Speaker wire - Qty 6 (let's hope that is 6 meters)
£_9.99 = Banana Plugs (4x)
£150 = Audioquest RCA
£109 = Audioquest USB


First, do you need a DAC, and why get a Bluetooth DAC when you can get the BlueSound NODE-2 Network Streaming device with high speed processor AND Bluetooth for £499?

The Roksan BLAK has a USB input and Bluetooth. The power is about 150w/ch to 8 ohms but only rated at 1khz. So again, why do you need the Arcam irDAC-II Bluetooth DAC?

And seriously, £13 for Speaker Wire but £150 for an RCA cable, that seem a bit out of balance.

Also, no Tone Controls on the amp, are you sure as a DJ that you do NOT want Tone Controls?

Also, will this be a DJ system? Will you be hauling it on the road? Or will this be your Home System?

The claimed 150w/ch is nice, but they fudged it a bit. I doubt it meets that standard 20hz to 20khz at the same distortion levels.Though I suspect easily over 100w/ch. Probably in the 120w/ch to 130w/ch range. That's still very nice.

By my estimates, the total comes to £5086

Let me put together a system, just as a sample, and see what I can come up with.

£_899/ea = Yamaha AS801, 100w/ch, High Quality DSD DACs with Optical, Coaxial, and USB-PC, Phono In, Sub Out.

Yamaha A-S801 Integrated Amplifier

£1999/pr = Dali Opticon 8


DALI OPTICON 8Black Speakers Per Pair

£40/pr = Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade 2.5mm² Speaker Cable 3m PAIR with Banana Plugs Installed.


Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade Black Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£36/pr = Fisual Rio Custom Stere RCA Cable - 2m (Top Rated)

Fisual Rio Custom Made Stereo Phono / RCA Cable - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£26/ea = Fisual Havana USB Cable 1.4m (Top Rated)(Currently on sale £10)

Fisual Rio Custom Made Stereo Phono / RCA Cable - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

£_899 = amp with DAC
£1999 = bigger speakers
£__40 = speaker wire
£__36 = RCA
£__26 = USB
-----------------------------
£3000 = Total

So, for another £500 you can add the Bluesound NODE-2 Network Streaming.

Alternative amps -

£1195 = Rotel RA-1570, 125w/ch, DAC

Rotel RA1570 Amplifier With DAC - Superfi

£1895 = Rotel RA-1592, 200w/ch, DAC

Rotel RA-1592 - Trade in Available - Nintronics.co.uk

The 200w/ch Rotel RA-1592 and the larger Opticon 8 would take you to about £4000, that would leave you an additional £1000 for misc. If you bought that package and added Network Streaming (£500), that would still leave you £500 for wire and cable, and other misc.

Just presenting some alternatives.

Steve/bluewizard



I wouldn't recommend these brands. Dali, Yamaha and Rotel are just not up to the likes of spendor, pmc, naim, Cyrus, and musical fidelity. It's not really rocket science, these are more mass produced offerings mostly of a different quality. Dali, Yamaha and Rotel are mid range set ups whereas brands like pmc and naim are premium audiophile brands, which your budget easily gets you into. None of this £900 amps etc.

As to the comment about not believing posters, clearly it's your ears as to what you will hear but be steered too by what people say at the prices you are looking at and if commensurate with what is being reviewed well and others are agreeing then it's strongly advocating brands even more. I think you can trust dealers but not blindly and only on doing your research and listening to lots of speakers, based on what people and mag reviews say and then test others around the price to see if they are right. Blindly buying by walking into a hi fi shop and accepting the retailers view about a speaker, just because they sell them, will get you a poor set up.
 
My opinion (as a self confessed anti audiophile)

Double the speaker price.
Halve the amp price.
Find the cheapest cables you can buy (believe me when I say it will make absolutely zero difference even if you were spending £100,000 - don't be sucked in it's a complete waste of money)

Personally I'm a huge Monitor Audio fan. You're in the Gold price range for a pair of floorstanders and I'd certainly reccomend demoing a pair of 200's (and possibly 300's).

But as some have said, it's all about your room as thats going to have a huge affect on the sound you hear regardless of the speakers and amp you buy.

G
 
I see you live in Bristol. Why not pop a long to the show at the Marriott hotel in Bristol this weekend. all the top AV/HIFI manufacturers will be there. Plenty of demo rooms for you to go have a listen to some top equipment. Sound & Vision - The Bristol Show 2017
 
My opinion (as a self confessed anti audiophile)

Double the speaker price.
Halve the amp price.
Find the cheapest cables you can buy (believe me when I say it will make absolutely zero difference even if you were spending £100,000 - don't be sucked in it's a complete waste of money)

Personally I'm a huge Monitor Audio fan. You're in the Gold price range for a pair of floorstanders and I'd certainly reccomend demoing a pair of 200's (and possibly 300's).

But as some have said, it's all about your room as thats going to have a huge affect on the sound you hear regardless of the speakers and amp you buy.

G


It makes a difference on cables the higher the value the system from owning kit like yours to what I currently have, but I guess if you don't have experience of £100k kit (neither do I !) how can you know.
 
Don`t spend £100 on usb cable. My speakers are KEF R900, they sound great and rosewood finish is cheaper as discontinued.
 
It makes a difference on cables the higher the value the system from owning kit like yours to what I currently have, but I guess if you don't have experience of £100k kit (neither do I !) how can you know.

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

No, it *REALLY* doesn't. EVER, at ANY price. High priced cables are snake oil and placebo. If it works for you, go for it, it's not my money you're wasting :)

Also I "know" because I've read a HUGE amount about it. Double blind test after test has NEVER shown a difference. There is some merit in the thickness affecting response over very long runs but thats physics, not magic.

James Randi even offered $1million to Pear Audio (amongst others) if anyone could show a difference between their $8000 cables and generic Monster Cables. He still has his $1million.

All you need is solid copper stranded cables. As has been remarked many times even cheap bell wire will work fine over short runs (<5m). The money is *FAR* better spent on the other components or in the case of really high end cables going on holiday.

G
 

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