Question Thinking the previously unthinkable switching pj for tv

Ewoody

Well-known Member
There are affordable 85" LED 4k TV's out there, here are two good examples, albeit at the lower end of the market..

Cello - C85238T24K ... £2,999.00.
Goodmans G85238T24K ... £3,299.99.

Cello are UK based.
Prices ..ebay.
 
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Smurfin

Distinguished Member
Update:

As an aside, it'll be all change at Chez Wooders soon.

As noted, last autumn we received delivery of a new 55" OLED TV. The picture quality is quite breath-taking. At roughly the same time we had a change in the internal geography of the house, and ended up with a seating distance from the TV which created a viewing angle not too dissimilar to that of my projector screen.

I have to be honest, I've enjoyed more films on the OLED (in both senses of the word) in the last few months than I have with my projector set up.

The main problems with the projector:

- Not as bright as the OLED
- Blacks not as dark as the OLED
- Subsequently, contrast not as great as with the OLED
- Changes in lamp over the life would require frequent calibration to ensure stable and accurate colours

All of that is an impact on raw PQ, but there are other factors.

- Not to put too fine a point on it, come 8:00pm on a Friday night, getting out of the sofa and sojourning up two flights of stairs, firing up the projector, altering the masking (if necessary), is all a bit much.
- The general set up of my (or any) cinema room is just that bit less comfortable. Same with the real cinema, I suppose. Having to sit in the pitch black, can't see your beer, etc.

Having had a good, long hard think about it, and being completely honest with myself, the above has stopped me seeing quite as many films as I'd like, or enjoying them quite so much when I did see them. And thinking about it, I've really enjoyed watching new films on the OLED, and haven't once felt I was suffering in any way by not going upstairs to the cinema room.

Over the past 12 years or so I've had 4 cinema rooms, with different set ups, and various times when I've done without. If I'm brutally frank, (and this is actually quite difficult to say), the cinema rooms were really just an attempt to escape the limitations of TV's shortcomings. Those shortcomings have now diminished to the extent where projection shortcomings stick out like a sore thumb.

There are pros and cons to any set up. The only pro to the projector is the large size. That's still a factor. But it's far less of a factor now that TVs have got that much better, that much bigger, and (by happy coincidence) my lounge means I'm sitting that much closer.

The final straw was this. I was in London over the weekend, and watched a film at the cinema. Big screen, as in properly big. I realised that the boost the size gave over my home cinema was larger than my home cinema over my lounge, to the point where I realised I wasn't really getting much more of a boost from my projector at home at all. It was there, but just not quite such a big thing. Secondly, whilst the cinema was (in home terms) 4K/100% DCI/HDR, it wasn't actually as good as my projector at home, which it turn wasn't as good as my TV.

Ultimately it's about watching and enjoying the films, the quality TV drama, and the sport, as often as possible, and enjoying them as much as possible. And for that reason, I'm ditching the projector.

Due to the limitations of projector technology - limitations which I simply don't see it possible to deal with - I don't think I'll be going back.

It will possibly not be possible to project an image to anything like the brightness levels of a decent TV. It will possibly never be able to improve black levels to that of a decent TV. It'll probably never be possible to watch a projected image and get a decent picture in anything other than pitch black (or as close as you can get it).

However, as TV sizes increase, I may well end up with a cinema room with a flatscreen instead of a projector. We'll have to see.

Steve W

Steve, I would just like to be the first one to say - you 16:9 peasant! ;)
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Interesting post Steve and I can understand your reasoning completely.

I won't be following however. At the risk of offending, I find overly large TVs a little bit 'naff' in a living room environment, so unless it's in a separate cinema room then it's still going to spoil the look of an otherwise nice living room IMHO.

My ideal is to have a virtually invisible set up with the AV gear out of the room (check), concealed subwoofers without ugly drivers on show (check, but more to come), speakers hidden behind AT fabric (coming soon) and a drop down screen (check, but being replaced for AT now I found they do drop down AT screens). I also want lots of black Devore each side of the screen, but not when the projector isn't in use (electric curtains with a concealed storage compartment).

However, like you say if it's all too much bother to activate then it'll be less likely to get used, so automation is going to have to be a big part of my new set up.

At least when it's just ordinary TV nothing other than the TV itself and one pair of side surrounds will be on show. Like you it isn't just WAF, it's as much me...I've long since got over having to see a stack of amps, etc on show with speaker drivers glinting at me.

However, the key thing for me is that if the TV is on it means that the lights will be too and it's too easy just to grab my laptop and start reading the forums. It's a bad habit I've got into (not just AV, but cars and music too, so I'm never short of a fresh set of posts to read and respond to), I often realise I've missed the end of something and wonder 'who done it?'. :blush: When I put the projector on at least I sit in the dark and concentrate...shame it's only a fraction of my weekly viewing.

Of course the big thing about using my projector is the 2.35:1 screen. ;):devil:
 

Artizen

Active Member
So apart from the personal preferences as to what creates an ideal living/viewing environment for one person and the tongue in cheek "snobbery" against 16.9 viewing can anyone shed anymore light on the actual quality difference in the picture between a PJ and a large 4k UHD tv 2.5 metres from MLP? plus I was actually thinking the black levels would be better on a PJ but after reading Peckers post I was thinking I had that wrong? Maybe the quality of the PJ determines this?
 

bobbyduke

Banned
I have found you might as well just make your projector size 75-85 inch rather than shell out 2-3grand out for another tv for that size.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
the tongue in cheek "snobbery" against 16.9 viewing

I'm sure Smurfin is the same, but I was just pulling Steve's leg as he has been involved a fair few threads discussing CIH vs CIW. No offence intended, though I do like that when I do use my projector the screen shape is a change from my regular TV viewing and does seem to suit the content I tend to watch on the two display types.

I know that Steve was talking about OLED, but in my case I'm still using a relatively lowly LCD TV. The on/off contrast on this LCD is around 10,000:1 if that, yet my JVC measures around 33,000:1 (native, it's over 100,000:1 with DI active). This means that my 'serious' viewing is done on the projector as it provides better image quality than my current TV. They are both calibrated via my Lumagen, but the motion and other aspects of my projector are better than the TV too, so it really is just a 'background' viewing display.

When there is a fade to black scene on my projector the room goes totally black for a number of seconds until my eyes adjust. So even though my room is currently lightly decorated I still get the benefit of this 'plunge into darkness'. I find that watching the TV in the dark hurts my eyes, so it's an effect that I don't get with TV viewing.

There's no right or wrong with this, just preference, so as I said before I fully respect why Steve has come to this decision for his room.
 

Artizen

Active Member
Sorry I wasn't meaning to imply anyone had taken offence (myself included) at the 16.9 reference. Kelvin you have made an interesting point about the TV hurting your eyes in a dark room. I found this after setting my TV even after setting up with the Spears and Munsil BR disc. I still had to "tame" the picture to make it watchable in a dark room. . So that is one area where a PJ is better you think? boobyduke did you change your tv for a PJ then?
 

bobbyduke

Banned
No I have the tv at the side of projector screen, as I have kids easier to pop tv on when they are not watching it properly. But I could easily just use a projector if it was just adults, running costs would be higher as projector uses more leccy if that bothers you. As you can see lights on not much difference between the two if you watch the dark films like batmans and harry potters you want the light off.
 

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Artizen

Active Member
No I have the tv at the side of projector screen, as I have kids easier to pop tv on when they are not watching it properly. But I could easily just use a projector if it was just adults, running costs would be higher as projector uses more leccy if that bothers you. As you can see lights on not much difference between the two if you watch the dark films like batmans and harry potters you want the light off.
Thanks thats helpful. No not bothered about running costs of one over the other but I couldn't run a tv and PJ side by side .. Id either have to lose the tv to another room or ceiling mount a screen to drop in front of tv (which is wall mounted).. from my reading non tensioned screens can curl so I'm unsure about that plan .. as is my partner who just wants a larger tv
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Sorry I wasn't meaning to imply anyone had taken offence (myself included) at the 16.9 reference. Kelvin you have made an interesting point about the TV hurting your eyes in a dark room. I found this after setting my TV even after setting up with the Spears and Munsil BR disc. I still had to "tame" the picture to make it watchable in a dark room. . So that is one area where a PJ is better you think? boobyduke did you change your tv for a PJ then?

Based on my LCD TV and JVC X500 projector, then in my case even at minimum backlight I can't watch my TV in the dark (and it's poorer contrast is highlighted without any 'bias' lighting), but I do watch my projector in the dark. I even went to the trouble of relocating my AV rack under the stairs outside the room to remove any other light sources from the room (LEDs on the displays, etc) to enjoy a complete fade to black.

It could just be me though as I'm the type of person to use a laptop with the display at minimum backlight.
 

bobbyduke

Banned
I have two motorised screens setup not noticed any curl on them as yet been using them for 9months now, glass bead is much better I find for my needs as I use projector anytime of day. That is a 100inch 4.3 glass bead screen but gives me a 92 inch screen size, I have found dipping below 100inch screen makes it worth it for the extra quality picture I get out of it matches the 55 inch tv if not betters it depends what you are watching.
 

Artizen

Active Member
Thank you guys. Much more to think about then before the decision. Bobbyduke what model is your PJ if you don't mind me asking? I'm using a Sony BDP 6500 BR player btw
 

boxer dog

Well-known Member
It's not so much will they be replacing them, more how long will makers of projectors continue to see a viable sustainable market for them? As the market diminishes, as it surely will, it will inevitably contract into just a few options - cheap as chips low grade impulse buys, and expensive exotica for the few remaining advocates willing to spend top dollar. Bread and butter middle of the road sensible projectors will be swallowed up by the arrival of relatively inexpensive very large sets. All of this is completely inevitable. Try telling Kodak "it will never happen" for example. Things change, and often not as we want them to.

Regards

Mark
You make a good point there. However there will still be plenty of people out there who do not want a 100" or above tv on the wall screaming "I love tv" all the time when you can have a PJ screen either in the ceiling or mounted to it and go big screen when the mood takes you. Then there is the problem of speaker placement with a solid object like a tv. Things do change as you say but they will not be making acoustically Transparant TVs any time in the future so for anyone who has invested in sizeable on wall LCR speakers a big fixed screen could be a no go (mine is AT for example)

As to the size question.
I am sat here now browsing the forums whilst watching walking dead (yawn this series) on sky catch up on a 42" panny LED, PJ is off. However tomorrow night as soon as the Joshua fight coverage starts I will be watching on the PJ at 92". Same for any movies. I like to have options.
 

bobbyduke

Banned
I have a Epson tw6600 as it works well in all lights I find, everything is used on it Roku, satellite boxes, Android M8 boxes, amazon fire tv stick and all the gaming consoles kids use. Myself once kids are out the way and I can sit down properly I only use the projector for tv never the normal tv I find myself squinting at the tv now lol.
 

Artizen

Active Member
I have a Epson tw6600 as it works well in all lights I find, everything is used on it Roku, satellite boxes, Android M8 boxes, amazon fire tv stick and all the gaming consoles kids use. Myself once kids are out the way and I can sit down properly I only use the projector for tv never the normal tv I find myself squinting at the tv now lol.
thanks for info... thats a well regarded PJ which I've already read about, It was on my list along with the Sony VPL hw40es.
 

bobbyduke

Banned
People seem to say good things about the Sony but what I noted all seem to say needs to be in a bat cave kind of room to get its full benefit out of it, which for me is no good or yourself if you wanted to used it as main tv, I would like to see the Epson tw9200 in action see if there is 1500quids worth of difference there.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
I completely get, and largely agree, about 'large TV nafness'.

We're quite lucky. We have a 55" set which isn't massive. It's helped by being a very thin OLED, with a virtually non-existent bezel. We also moved lounge a while ago and the position of both the seats and TV dictate themselves, which coincidently give us an excellent viewing distance.

I fully appreciate that might not fit into everyone's home, though. Were we still in the old, larger lounge, it wouldn't work.

As for the change necessitating a return to a 16:9 CIW screen, I think this is helped massively by the absolute blacks on the OLED. It's strange, but it's like your screen isn't any particular shape. The rest of the screen just disappears.

Steve W
 

Cliff

Distinguished Member
Also agree about maintaining the living room environment without spoiling it with a huge screen. I like and have a 120 inch drop down screen for movies and a 42 inch screen for TV. The TV needs to be upgraded but it won't be the cost that will decide the screen size. It will be how it looks in the room without being overpowering -especially when its off.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
Update.

Since April I've ditched the projector set up and have been watching on an LG 65" OLED.

Basically, we have a small lounge with a 55" OLED where we watch day-to-day TV, and a larger lounge with the 65" OLED and a 5.1 (soon to be 7.1) sub-sat system where we watch TV and films on a Friday, Saturday, and Sunday night.

Cons - Very occasionally there's a lac of big screen impact, but more and more I'm finding this is either diminished or non-existent.

Pros - Absolutely everything else. Picture quality, comfort, ease of use, not having to pretty much build, decorate and fit out a room in an ultimately impossible attempt to control light issues. On balance, I'm enjoying films more, and watching films far more often. It's also easier to persuade SWMBO and the family to watch a film. Not having to black out the room to the extent that you need to worry about reflections off non-black clothing is a real positive, I can even have a little dim lighting on so I don't knock over my beer or spill the peanuts.

Having come from a CIA set up I was a tad worried about aspect ratio issues, but the blackness of the bars on the OLED screen appear to negate this. I'm fortunate enough to be able to move my seating (and rear speakers) depending on the ratio being watched, and my viewing angles are now similar to those I had in my projector-based cinema room.

For the last couple of Sundays, after watching Strictly results with the kids, we've packed them off to bed and watched the first two Die Hard films, it'll be the third this week. This is the sort of thing we simply never would have done with the projector.

For many years now I've been keeping an eye on the ever-updating projector technologies, and I continue to do so. But we're now approaching a situation where it's almost as important to keep an eye on what's happening with flatscreens. 55, 65, 75...85". We appear to be galloping towards the fairly standard 120" projector screen size.

Happy viewing, everyone.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
I have a 65" 4k tv in the lounge but still prefer my 100" 1080p pj with full 7.2.4 atmos sound setup in my cinema room for watching movies sport or music concerts.

I live in a semi so my lounge is next to my neighbours lounge so can't really crank up the 7.1 sound system in that room to realistic levels so if I want big screen with big sound I use the cinema room which is on the other side of the house so can listen at ref levels if I want without disturbing anyone.

I will say though that when my current pj goes belly up (maybe in a couple of years) I could be persuaded to spring for an 85" 4k TV if one was available for under £4000 as it would not be that much smaller than my pj screen and especially if the image could be better than my current JVC X35.
 

Atmos

Well-known Member
I look at my 150” screen and wish it was bigger. I sometimes pull the sofa towards the screen to get that Imax effect. Using VR doesn’t help either where your FOV is 110 degrees which can fit 300” screen no problem.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again PJs are going to become dinosaurs. The limitations on resolution, contrast, cost and ease of use are not going to change in the future while emerging technologies are going to surpass PJs.

It won’t be long (5 years) before you can buy a head mounted display which will have all the advantages of a TV and all the advantages of a PJ without the disadvantages of either.

Varjo's 'Bionic Display' Headset is a Breathtaking Preview of VR's Future
 

Sandra51

Active Member
The problem with going for a bigger TV in place of the projector is that it would seem that you would have to go without watching your 3D films you already have and those yet to come out.

Also I can have a much larger screen in my lounge that rolls up than a TV, at least until the foldable screen OLED TVs come out.
 

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