Question Thinking the previously unthinkable switching pj for tv

hati

Active Member
One thing we should discuss is material.

Generally speaking, the films I feel I 'need' the projector for are large scale, epic, vista-fests.

Dramas, I'm not sure the scale if the picture adds anything.

They're obviously very loose definitions. Some of Peter Weir's dramas (Dead Poets Society, Witness) have some lovely landscapes.

Steve W

Film is very visual media (D'oh) which makes directors to put visual elements to it. I don't remember seeing any film,regardless of the genre, that doesn't have at least one shot that will deliver "wau" effect in big screen with good quality source material. (Usually it's a scene of wilderness and/or mountains.) I'm sure that there are movies that don't lose anything in TV but in general even the cheesiest romantic comedies tend to lose a little bit of their atmosphere if they aren't showed in big screen.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
Film is very visual media (D'oh) which makes directors to put visual elements to it. I don't remember seeing any film,regardless of the genre, that doesn't have at least one shot that will deliver "wau" effect in big screen with good quality source material. (Usually it's a scene of wilderness and/or mountains.) I'm sure that there are movies that don't lose anything in TV but in general even the cheesiest romantic comedies tend to lose a little bit of their atmosphere if they aren't showed in big screen.

Loads of great films without that sort of shot.

Off the top of my head 12 Angry Men.

Steve W
 

Mark_a

Well-known Member
For those folks content with their 108" projection screens the reality is here now with both Samsung and LG selling 110" TVs.

Regards

Mark
 

Mark_a

Well-known Member
How about this 120" Vizio Reference TV? Yours for the bargain price of... well, if you need to ask, an' all that.

Regards

Mark
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
How about this 120" Vizio Reference TV? Yours for the bargain price of... well, if you need to ask, an' all that.

Regards

Mark
Looks nice, but Lcd, I'll take the OLED when it arrives Can't believe it's over 20 times the price of the 60" version!
 

Smurfin

Distinguished Member
100"+ TVs have been around for years , they won't be replacing projectors any time soon imho.
 

Mark_a

Well-known Member
It's not so much will they be replacing them, more how long will makers of projectors continue to see a viable sustainable market for them? As the market diminishes, as it surely will, it will inevitably contract into just a few options - cheap as chips low grade impulse buys, and expensive exotica for the few remaining advocates willing to spend top dollar. Bread and butter middle of the road sensible projectors will be swallowed up by the arrival of relatively inexpensive very large sets. All of this is completely inevitable. Try telling Kodak "it will never happen" for example. Things change, and often not as we want them to.

Regards

Mark
 

Smurfin

Distinguished Member
All of this is completely inevitable. Try telling Kodak "it will never happen" for example. Things change, and often not as we want them to.

Of course things change, but people are talking as if these large OLED sets are going to be the death of projectors, and I'm yet to see any evidence whatsoever that this will be the case.

When OLED yields are sufficiently high and the market is flooded with them (we're not there yet), and screen sizes are 100"+ without costing upwards of £5k (we're not there yet and might never be)...then I do think the projector market will diminish at all but the budget end of the scale. But again, there's no evidence to suggest we're anywhere near close to that.
 

steviedr

Distinguished Member
This discussion has been an interesting read.
Still very early days in OLED tech never mind the price going north of 60".
I'll look back on this thread in 2020 and see how it compares.

I see the LG OLED prices already dropping especially Stateside. Maybe shifting units for the newer HDR models to take their place, it's starting to get tempting though, some big discounts already happening.

I guess with the current (on some) OLED vignetting issues on the edges, if they release a 2:40:1 version, while watching 16:9 content we will have our masking sorted!

We just need the JVC reviews to come out to start pulling many back off the fence...
 

Smurfin

Distinguished Member
I guess with the current (on some) OLED vignetting issues on the edges, if they release a 2:40:1 version, while watching 16:9 content we will have our masking sorted!

I would be sold! Just need a big big screen size :)
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
Apparently, once units of scale increase, OLEDs will cost less to manufacture than LCDs.

OLED manufacturers need to do two things if they're to replace projectors:

1 - Complete development of the wallpaper TV concept, at LCD prices

2 - Enable users (or at least installers) to place multiple displays together to form one, seamless display.

I'm not sure if that's possible. But if they can, it'd be amazing.

Currently, Curry's list 4 65" LCD sets, ranging in price from £1,000 to £1,250.

If you could make a wallpaper OLED for that price, and link 4 together seamlessly, you'd have a 130" 4K OLED for between £4k & £5k.

Cost and practicality is what's stopping people buying huge flatscreens at the moment. A set cheap enough that you can actually get through the door and round a corner could make that market explode.

Steve W
 

hati

Active Member
2 - Enable users (or at least installers) to place multiple displays together to form one, seamless display.

Most likely panel difference will be bigger problem than seamless borders. When you put four panels together it's most likely that they have little variance in brightness and colour reproduction which will make it easy to see that one big screen consist of four smaller ones. And if you build your big screen from smaller pieces that problem will multiply itself.
 

Rich H

Well-known Member
"Rogo" over at AVSForum (writes on technology for Forbes, etc, is very plugged in to the manufacturing process and numbers for display equipment) has pointed out many times that
there isn't evidence people want ever bigger screen sizes. This is because, despite screen sizes becoming larger and more affordable, for quite a while the trend shows that 65" seems to be the tipping point. 65" displays themselves aren't even that popular relative to smaller displays, but desire for/purchasing of larger screens seems to nose dive after 65," it's been that way for a while and nothing in research suggests it's changing any time soon.

Perhaps it's some combination of ergonomics, hitting screen sizes people feel comfortable accommodating or dedicating space to, or aesthetics, etc. But apparently the premise that consumers appetite for larger screen sizes will track ever larger, isn't well supported.

Which, I guess suggests the economics of supply and demand entails truly big screens - e.g. above 100" - are likely to remain pricey enough to make projection remain an attractive option for quite a while. (Witness the price of the Vizeo 120" TV - 24 times the cost of my projector, yet still not able to produce as large an image).
 

Chinstroke

Active Member
The other thing that has occurred to me that hasn't been mentioned as far as I can see (sorry if I have missed it)and that is nothing can compare with the flexibility that a projector with a decent zoom range can give you. Without moving the projector I can go from having a 150cm wide image to a 300cm wide image. If you pick the wrong screen size with a TV you can't just adjust the zoom. ( I do appreciate that unless you are projecting straight onto a wall that you would have to purchase a new screen but in most instances that is a lot cheaper than a new TV.)
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
Update:

As an aside, it'll be all change at Chez Wooders soon.

As noted, last autumn we received delivery of a new 55" OLED TV. The picture quality is quite breath-taking. At roughly the same time we had a change in the internal geography of the house, and ended up with a seating distance from the TV which created a viewing angle not too dissimilar to that of my projector screen.

I have to be honest, I've enjoyed more films on the OLED (in both senses of the word) in the last few months than I have with my projector set up.

The main problems with the projector:

- Not as bright as the OLED
- Blacks not as dark as the OLED
- Subsequently, contrast not as great as with the OLED
- Changes in lamp over the life would require frequent calibration to ensure stable and accurate colours

All of that is an impact on raw PQ, but there are other factors.

- Not to put too fine a point on it, come 8:00pm on a Friday night, getting out of the sofa and sojourning up two flights of stairs, firing up the projector, altering the masking (if necessary), is all a bit much.
- The general set up of my (or any) cinema room is just that bit less comfortable. Same with the real cinema, I suppose. Having to sit in the pitch black, can't see your beer, etc.

Having had a good, long hard think about it, and being completely honest with myself, the above has stopped me seeing quite as many films as I'd like, or enjoying them quite so much when I did see them. And thinking about it, I've really enjoyed watching new films on the OLED, and haven't once felt I was suffering in any way by not going upstairs to the cinema room.

Over the past 12 years or so I've had 4 cinema rooms, with different set ups, and various times when I've done without. If I'm brutally frank, (and this is actually quite difficult to say), the cinema rooms were really just an attempt to escape the limitations of TV's shortcomings. Those shortcomings have now diminished to the extent where projection shortcomings stick out like a sore thumb.

There are pros and cons to any set up. The only pro to the projector is the large size. That's still a factor. But it's far less of a factor now that TVs have got that much better, that much bigger, and (by happy coincidence) my lounge means I'm sitting that much closer.

The final straw was this. I was in London over the weekend, and watched a film at the cinema. Big screen, as in properly big. I realised that the boost the size gave over my home cinema was larger than my home cinema over my lounge, to the point where I realised I wasn't really getting much more of a boost from my projector at home at all. It was there, but just not quite such a big thing. Secondly, whilst the cinema was (in home terms) 4K/100% DCI/HDR, it wasn't actually as good as my projector at home, which it turn wasn't as good as my TV.

Ultimately it's about watching and enjoying the films, the quality TV drama, and the sport, as often as possible, and enjoying them as much as possible. And for that reason, I'm ditching the projector.

Due to the limitations of projector technology - limitations which I simply don't see it possible to deal with - I don't think I'll be going back.

It will possibly not be possible to project an image to anything like the brightness levels of a decent TV. It will possibly never be able to improve black levels to that of a decent TV. It'll probably never be possible to watch a projected image and get a decent picture in anything other than pitch black (or as close as you can get it).

However, as TV sizes increase, I may well end up with a cinema room with a flatscreen instead of a projector. We'll have to see.

Steve W
 
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sergiup

Distinguished Member
Bendy OLED screens - coming to a wall near you within the next 5-10 years!
But seriously, I agree, even though I've never had a projector at home. Yes they're currently undefeated in projecting a huge image, but you have plenty of downsides as you say.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Hisense have a 75" 4k HDR enabled LED just coming out at £2500, agreed not OLED blacks but it makes you think don't it.:)
 

Artizen

Active Member
I'm finding this thread a most interesting read. As somebody who has a modest "home cinema" set up (its in the family sitting room!).. So I've got my audio set up pretty much as far as I'd like to go for now and it sounds just great, MK speakers/Dolby Atmos receiver etc, but have been staring at my Sony 55" 4k tv thinking it seems to be shrinking daily… So I start thinking maybe i should try a PJ set up. My MLP is only 2.5metres from screen so I've been busy wading through threads to gain as much knowledge as I can to see if it might work well at that distance at all anyway. I had no knowledge at all till a few days ago. Its a big subject to take in / screens/ PJ types etc etc.. but some of the comments on this thread have made me reconsider my original plan which was to upgrade to a 65" or funds permitting a 75" 4k uhd tv. It seems to me that any 1080p PJ under 1k has drawbacks and I'm concerned the picture quality wouldnt match my tv... and any 4k PJ is as expensive as a 75" Tv anyway!?. But would the "big picture" experience compensate for the drop in video quality…hmmm Interested to hear from any members with experience of such a dilemma!
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
I have to be honest and say it's a subjective thing.

I think we'd all agree on the pros and cons of each. It's just the weight each of us as individuals attach to each pro and each con.

For me (and I must stress that), I ultimately found that projectors simply have too many limitations. Even a monster £50,000 projector will struggle to reach the brightness of a good flat screen, and will also be completely unable to go completely black, even in a batcave, even with an iris, unless the screen is completely black (LED or laser projector with light source completely off), and to even start to approach that you need to have made some fairly radical, possibly expensive treatments applied to the room, and sit in fairly unusual lighting.

People say 3D has failed (again) because the viewer has to wear glasses. Bloody hell, it's a good job they didn't have to build and sit in a batcave, or it'd never have made it as far as it did.

I was going to mention the WAF. But to hell with that, what about the me acceptance factor? I actually quite like my rooms to be nice, it's not just Me Julie.

The one last thing is, of course, the arrival of UHD. TVs appear to be swapping from 1080p to 4K with a fairly modest price increase. Indeed, the AVF team have often commented that it's hard to find a set that's not 4K anymore. That's certainly not the case with projectors. Hardly any on the ground, and all several thousand pounds more than their 1080p equivalents.

As for HDR, well I'm still not convinced in any case. But there's no way a projector can reach the contrast figures of a decent 1080p TV, let alone a HDR set. They've announced two sets of certification for flatscreens - one for bright LED-LCDs with poor blacks, and one for slightly-less-bright OLEDs with perfect blacks. What use will HDR be on a projector that's dimmer than an OLED and less-good with blacks than an LCD?

Steve W
 

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