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Think I've Found The Reason For Blurring??

Discussion in 'TVs' started by soni, Jan 13, 2005.

  1. soni

    soni
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    Right guys, I’ve spent the last two days setting up my Tosh. Took absolutely ages, was up until 3:30 yesterday morning, had to be up for work at 6, was up until 2:00 this morning, and had to be up again at 6. I had to wire up my existing Denon 3802 amp, as I rewired all the speaker cables (plastered in wall) I went the 7:1 root with the KEF Eggs, so have 14 cables x 2 ends - 28 pieces of cable to strip (speaker and amp side) it took frigging ages!!

    Anyway, it was all worth it in the end, as i'm totally blown away with the picture quality! Even the telewest feed is fantastic. I watched Spiderman 1 last night on Sky Movies, and it looked terrific. I was really worried about how the Tosh would display the Digital Decoder reception of Telewest- as I had seen the poor quality feed in Comet which looked dreadful – but it looks brilliant! Also, regarding the blurring issue on Gladiator, i've discovered something which is quite strange – but it might help other Tosh owners!

    I was originally running DVD via scart 3 on the first night- whilst i was waiting for the HDMI cable (QED) to arrive, as i did not get one with the tv? Anyway, i didn’t notice any blurring on 3:16 of Gladiator - thought i was one of the lucky ones! Then, when i read the TV instructions that night, it said scart’s 1 & 2 are RGB, and that 3 is S Video, and that DVD or Digital Decoder should be connected to scart’s 1 or 2.

    Anyway, i reconnected the dvd to scart 1 as per the manual, but then noticed the dreaded 3:16 blurring problem – although it was nowhere near as bad as it looked in-store. Then the HDMI cable arrived yesterday, so re-connected up via HDMI - but the blurring was still there at 3:16. Anyway, i've been sitting on the floor to watch the tv as our new suite doesn't come until today - and was just thinking about trying it linked via scart 3 again - as that seemed to get rid of the blurring – and thought this was the answer to curing it as this is the only thing that I had changed since the blurring started.

    Whilst I was thinking about reconnecting to Scart 3, I was in a type of standing/squatting position, and i let the film roll on from 3:00. I looked at the tv around 3:16 and noticed that the picture was totally different - no blurring at all!. The picture normally looks like he's got a mask on yeah, his face looks blocky, and it looks like he’s got leprosy – he’s face looks like its falling apart! But this was not like that at all anymore, it was displaying exactly the same as it did on my Tosh 28" i.e., normal slight blur due to the speed of the pan whilst close filming of his face - but not the masked/blocky/picture corrupted look! What settings did i change? None! Didn't even get around to changing the scart socket or hdmi connections - one minute it was there - the next it was cured. I then suddenly realised what it was – the seating position!

    I proved this by sitting on the floor again and watching it – which started the blurring masked blocky problem again – and then I raised myself up to the position I was in when it disappeared - and it disappeared again! If you imagine raising yourself to a height where your chin would rest just on top of the TV if you were next to it, then this is the position that I found it disappears. Also, the picture blurring was really bad in Comet - but guess what - this makes sense as they had it on a plinth which was at a high angle!!! Although it might not be practical to sit that high up, depending on the height of the suite when it arrives, i think my head will be in line with the top frame of the TV.

    Strange ah!

    I’ve also got the following question: I’ve got the Denon 2910 player, its new so am not familiar with the settings yet – but it has two HDMI output settings – one is HDMI RGB, the other is something like HDMI cy b r? Something like that. If I have HDMI RGB selected, the blacks of the TV, especially around Maximu’s chin in Gladiator, in the early stages just after he walks through the field, and just before he looks at the Robin and the sky, the picture looks really dark, and the shadowy areas around his chin have a green tint to them.

    But, if I select the other setting – HDMI cy b r – or whatever it is – the picture is bright, colourfull, and absolutely fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    What is the difference between these two settings? The instruction booklet is thicker than the Bible, but is pretty useless and doesn’t tell you which one should be selected or the differences between each one. Any ideans anybody?

    Also, I notice little difference between 720p/1080i, should it be noticeable?
     
  2. dalespitfire

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    Dude you are one seriously disturbed man :rotfl: Get some sleep!!!

    Seriously though, when they are handing out MBE's (Medals for Blurring Eradication) you'll be getting one I think (along with phunt and numerous others). :clap:

    My set is meant to arrive on Monday, and what with all the settings posted on here and suggestions that you first owners have made, assuming it isn't faulty then setting up should be a doddle :smashin:

    Good Effort :clap:
     
  3. soni

    soni
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    Dalespitfire: If it wasn't for reading this Forum whilst i'm at work, i think i would be asleep!

    Anyway, personally i don't think the Gladiator scene is a fault with the TV at alll. Your head height whilst viewing the picutre DEFINATELY determines its effect - try it when you get your set on Monday. You will be well chuffed with it i can assure you! I was really worried that i had made the wrong decision, and was not looking forward to setting it up at all - but i'm blown away by it - it looks awsomely sexy, gives a fantastic picture (almost said something else then!), and it makes our lounge look so bloody big!

    Trust me, its a great set! :clap:
     
  4. lee31

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    Re youre HDMI settings, Im preety certain that RGB will be for Progressive (better on NTSC discs) & other is Luminence better for PAL
     
  5. Bruce1310

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    Hi Soni

    The way i see it is that HDMI cy b r (colour space) is the digital equivalent of component while HDMI rgb is the digital equivalent of analogue rgb (ie rgb scart connection). I realise that is probably over simplifying it.

    Also, as you have worked out with HDMI you have the choice of both while with DVI you are restricted to RGB...this I presume due to it being initially a computer standard connection.

    Sympathy over the rewiring...it does take forever...am also rewiring at the moment!!

    Bruce
     
  6. soni

    soni
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    Cheers Lee/Bruce

    The wiring is worth it in the end, believe me, no wiring around the house, all in the walls, and under the carpet! Its the only way i could get round my Mrs!

    So, if i'm viewing say Spiderman R2 or Gladiator R2 - is it better having the HDMI setting on cy b r rather than HDMI RGB? And then if i watch a R1 DVD, set it to HDMI RGB?
     
  7. evolution400

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    Living proof you can find a solution to somthing sitting on your ass :)
    Well done mate.
     
  8. Nick_UK

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    I got another theory - the DLP guys are moaning about blurring/solarisation, the plasma guys are moaning about blurring/solarisation, the LCD guys are moaning about blurring/solarisation - maybe it's the broadcasters, and not the TV's ?
     
  9. Delboy

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    soni ..

    So what scart have you put telewest thro m8?

    Del
     
  10. n00b

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    can anyone else confirm if the blurring problem disappears when they are at a different angle to the screen?
    how high do the ppl who do not experience the problem have their tv? lee is the only one i can remember.

    thanks in advance.
     
  11. pantages

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    Yes! This could explain why some of us do not see the 'blurring' at all. The viewing angle is quite crucial, moving a couple of inches up or down, or lying down even, affects the image. My feeling is that it is caused by the screen material? Oh, no, here we go again down another path!
     
  12. maidstoneman30s

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    to all,
    i believe that the blurring is two fold. 1), the only time i see blurring is if the scene is dark, which means that the original tv camera had difficulty in relaying to film or hard disc.
    in my cctv work we have the same issues, that when the light lux level decreases below the camera's lux level capabilities, the image on the monitor starts to fade or snow.
    Of course i can not compare the cctv camera to a 1/2 million pound tv /film camera, however, it is the same principle.

    Imagine yourself outside in the dark trying to read the number plate at 20 feet. Your eyes are not getting the clarity you think you should have. try the same at daytime, and its easy to see the number plate.

    2) The only other time I get blurring , is i get a really bad SKY feed and, usually Eastenders, i am not bothered in watching that program.

    On the other hand, has any one watched on SKY 1, last night, Natural world, the Snake hunter, in India.
    Wooowww, the pic shots were phenominal, the panning and instant zooming of the cameraman was brilliantly displayed . overall i was very pleased, well for a sky feed some images were like seeing an Image from a HDMI output.

    Brilliant if you ask me. Welll pleased and the Mrs is very happy tooo

    maidstoneman30s
     
  13. soni

    soni
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    Delboy: I've got Telewest connected to Scart 2 - i'm using the scart cable that i used to use for my old Tosh DVD player, as i don't need it now for DVD - as the Denon 2910 has HDMI output. The scart cable i'm using for Telewest is a Profigold gold plated. Its quite a thick cable. I've just watched Spiderman 2 AGAIN on DVD - i think the picture is absolutely stunning. Just about to watch The Day Before Tommorrow. I've go to decide on which settings to use as standard i.e., HDMI RGB, or HDMI cy r or whatever its called. HDMI RGB definately makes Gladiator a lot worse, as it makes the picture dark, and makes Maximus eyes look really strange and shadowy at the begining when he looks at the robin redbreast after walking through the field, and also shows up a shadow around his chin which has a green tint to it. Whereas when its on HDMI cy r, its a really sharp and bright colourfull picture and looks fantastic again - but on Spiderman HDMI RGB seems to make the picture richer and looks better than HDMI cy r, so it seems to be determined on the DVD.
     
  14. n00b

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    yes but the question is when you do get blurring is it made better/worse/or even eliminated by viewing at the angle recommended by mr. soni? :)
     
  15. phunt

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    Well within 2 minutes of reading this post i was bobbing up an down in my living room like a complete idiot.I can confirm that while it did not totally erradicate the blur from 3:16 it definatly looked better.So now im left with another dilema.....Do i buy bumper cusions for my suite or get the hacksaw out and take the bottom shelf off the tosh stand :eek:
     
  16. fleagledog

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    OK guys. Yet another theory. I have just been watching phenomenon on the channel 5 sky feed (great film, crap quality). Loe and behold, I noticed the blurring (not really seen it before) and the 'oil painting' effect. Prior to the film, I had turned the contrast on sky down to medium. When I turned it back up to high and replayed some of the film (wonderful thing sky+), blurring had gone. So, my theory, ahem...... it is a combination of brightness/contrast and poor quality feed. I think that explains the viewing angle phenomenon (sorry) because effectively the brightness/contrast goes down. Still very pleased overall.
     
  17. Elephant Man

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    good
     
  18. maidstoneman30s

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    seen as you two guys dont mind hopping up and down, and left side and right side, and poor me isnt at home til late tonight, would be nice if either of you two hope about and try and get some near as damn possible viewing measurements for the blur.

    that way I can go home and do the same as phunt, and collect my 8 cushions to pile on my nice leather sofa.

    :D :D :D :D :D

    maidstoneman30s
     
  19. pantages

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    Either sales of heavy duty springs will rocket, (no pun intended), or settees will be adapted to take stilts! I like the Sky+ contrast theory, so I will play with that later.

    Boing! Just call me Zebedee!
     
  20. g_unit

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    Well here it is guys and gals - the fix we've all been waiting for..

    Drum Roll Please......





    :clap: :clap: :clap:




    Here it is:
    [​IMG]


    This will get at the right height for watching tv - YAY!

    Lol :zonked: :zonked: :laugh: :laugh: :zonked: :zonked:
     
  21. n00b

    n00b
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    does this mean ppl who do not experience blurring have their brightness turned up to high? lee (or anyone else who does not experience the problem) what level is your brightness on??
     
  22. soni

    soni
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    Just on my way to the garage to get a tape measure Maidstoneman.

    Will also play with the settings this evening, will be using Gladiator as my tester, and will try and come up with some magic settings that will elimate the blurring, otherwise i can see Phunt & my wife leaving us shortly thinking we've gone completely mad!!!!! What with Phunts pigeon actions in front of his TV, and our sofa being up on trolley jacks for the last two days - i think our woman will be on their way to a refuge shortly!
     
  23. himpressive

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    What if you are longsighted and they have astigmatism? :rotfl:
     
  24. clintgray

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    Just saw fleagledog's post but seeing as I wrote this whole thing out, I figured I post it anyway...

    I am just wondering under which setting you are seeing the blur. When I got my Toshiba 52HM84 DLP, the first thing I did was adjust to picture setting to the warm setting and I lowered the contrast and brightness to a more comfortable level in a dim room (I cannot believe how much light these things put out).

    Anyway, I started seeing the blurring effect often and it really started bothering me. There is really very little information available from Toshiba and other DLP manufacturers on this problem so I started messing around with the DNR setting, my cable box's resolution settings ... not much helped.

    Tonight, I set the TV back to the "Standard" setting which is very bright so I raised the ambient light in the room (to prevent the TV from blinding me). I have a Motorola HD DVR so I started playing a scene that seemed to reliably produce a blur effect and I noticed that it was drastically improved. The DVR also lets me step through frame by frame which allowed me to see that the individual frames looked fine thereby eliminating the broadcast as the source of the problem.

    I am wondering if this could be caused, not so much by the color wheel (like the rainbow effect), but the actual way the DLP chip works. I initially thought that the chip created different levels of light by reflecting more or less light (changing the angle the light was reflected) but after looking at the demo on www.dlp.com, I now see that it creates different levels of light by reflecting light for more or less time... hence the whole digital light processing - on or off.

    Could it be that these effects we are seeing are from lower lengths of reflection time? If so, I suppose I will just get used to watching TV in a brighter room with a brighter image.

    Sorry to ramble,
    Clint Gray
     
  25. DIMA NETU

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    Does anybody seeing blur on a disks in R1 NTSC system? I seeing blur on my Sagem Axium only on disks in PAL system and no on NTSC disks. If I do not want to see blur, I switch my player Samsung 745 on NTSC system and looking PAL films through DVI output 1280x720 with frequency of 60 Hz.
     
  26. soni

    soni
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    DIMA NETU: How does this affect Gladiator 3:16? Does it iradicate that to?
     
  27. albertz

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    strange you notice blurring, i just got mine today, and gladiator was the first dvd i tried on it ( wanted my mate to experience the DTS promo at the start ) there was absolutely no blurring, and that was via s-video!!
    ( something i intend to remedy ).

    on that note, does anyone out there reccomend an hdmi equiped dvd player? which one? and can i output the sound to my pioneer nsdv88 all in one?
     
  28. KableMan

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    Hi All - I've been following this blurr issue for some time as I've been considering the Toshiba 46" alongside the Samsung 46" and can't decide which to buy. I wanted to know if you guys think the viewing height/brightness & contrast is the solution and if it has made a difference to those of you who have been experiencing the problem?

    I'll be honest the blurr has been one of the issues holding me back from buying the Toshiba - if you hadn't bought one would you say it would have put you off? Is it so bad that you'd regret making the purchase? Also does anyone know if the samsung has a similar problem - i've not seen any posts. I've been reading the various comparisons - HD2+ vs HD3/Sharp vs Soft/Film like etc but the those people who have the Toshiba always seem very pleased - even though there is this "big" blurr issue - how big an issue is it?

    I've owned a Toshiba 40" rear pro for six years and never had a problem so I do rate the Toshiba brand. But i've been tempted by the quality of the samsung - also curry's have decent DLP demo running on the samsung and comet have a crappy feed so its hard to compare!

    Any advice/feedback would be greatfully received.

    Cheers
    KableMan
     
  29. soni

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    Kableman: I've owned the Tosh 46" for about 6 weeks now, and i definately do not regret getting the set. IMHO its a really nice looking set which looks really nice in our room - we've gone for the contemporary look and based our colour scheme around the set. Regarding the blur issue, i did know about this before purchasing. I actually demoed the set twice prior to the purchase, if you don't mind me going on a bit i will explain (as briefly as possible). I went to Comet at Greenwich (although i live near Aylesford in Kent - as my local store didn't have one on display) and took along with me Gladiator (the dreaded test disc) and Spiderman 2. I played Gladiator first, and boy was that blurring bad at 3:16!!!! It looked absolutely pants - and to be perfectly honest it even made me feel sick! It lasts for about 6-7 seconds. I really thought of blowing the Tosh out of my considerations there and then, but thought i would have a look at Spiderman 2 whilst i was there - as Gladiator was quite a dark looking film. Anyway, Spiderman 2 went in the player, and i thought - oh my god - that film looks fantastic - even the sales staff stopped what they were doing and grouped up and started watching the film. It displayed some of the most rich and vibrant looking colours around, and the scenes when spiderman is jumping over the rooftops and falls between the buildings - you really do get a true feeling of falling. Anyway, the Sales guy came over and after a bit of negotiating, i managed to get him down to 1540.00 from 1999.00. I then tried the Gladiator DVD in a Pioneer Plasma - it was the HD display (can't remember the Model No but it was £3000.00) anyway, guess what? As soon as the movie came on - i thought that looks absolute pants! There's no way i would pay 3K for a picture like that - the colours were really week and the picture just looked IMHO awfull compared with the Tosh. And guess what else? Whilst the panning blur at 3:16 wasn't as bad as on the Tosh, it still had blur at 3:16 whilst panning. The test of the Pioneer was certainly enough to make my decision that the Tosh was the one to go for at half the price! Anway, in brief, since i've had the Tosh, i have witnessed panning blurr on other DVD's also, BUT they are no where near as bad as they are on the Gladiator scene, and only last for about 2 seconds tops - when they do occur - and i would estimate a guess that during a DVD you would expierence about max 15-20% blur whereas the other 80-85% would look absolutely fantastic - believe me - i am in no way dissapointed - ive even joined the Blockbuster on-line DVD club where you rent as many DVD's per month as you like for £20, and they have over 23000 films, all sent out first class post (free of charge both ways) with a 3 day turnaround - and i'm getting all the best special effect films out there because the Tosh really looks that good!!! ESPECIALLY THE DAY AFTER TOMMORROW - Check out the screen shots i posted up in the Show Me Yours Thread!!! I've even included standard digital TV shots.
     
  30. KableMan

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    Thanks soni - your feedback is much appreciated!

    Has the brightness/contrast or viewing height made any difference to your situation re:blurring? Both explanations sound quite promising.

    Have you tried any High Definition feeds into the Toshiba? Spider-man 2 sounds impressive even without. I was blown away by the Sagem WMV HD demos - it really looked real and 3d - like a view from a window in places! and I wondered how it might look on the Toshiba.

    Thanks again!
    KableMan
     

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