Thin "proper" speakers choice, M&K vs Procella vs JBL

Uppsalaing

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Would love your input... I have already received great advice from some of you on deciding on going for a 5.1 vs. 7.1 layout. Costly mistakes averted.

I have shortlisted the following speakers to audition for a 5.2.2 system:
  • M&K: IW950 as LCR. S95T as surrounds (tripole), IW950 or IW95 as in ceiling Atmos.
  • Procella: P5 inwall/onwall for all speakers.
  • JBL: the new C211 cinema speakers as LCR, no idea what to use as surround or Atmos. They'll be too big for surrounds (aesthetically)
  • Yamaha: The pro audio range looks interesting (non-powered)

Of KEF, B&W and such only the towers and bookshelves available for me to audition (I can order anything from their catalogues, but not audition). I can audition anything in Dubai speaker-wise.

Here's the thing.. I would prefer speakers that are thin as my screen is at the limit of my projector's throw distence and the LCR speakers will be in-wall/on-wall mounted so the screen width falls 6cm for every 10cm of wall baffle depth. The screen sizes would be as follows:
- Wall hung screen = 2.26m width (CIA, 2.05:1 ratio)
- 10cm (4inch) deep baffle wall = 2.17m width
- 20cm (8inch) deep baffle wall = 2.1m width
- 30cm (12inch) deep baffle wall = 2.04m width

Main listening position distence is around 2.75metres (108 inches) from the screen. Please refer to the layout attached. (x marks ceiling speakers, not sure where to mount surrounds)
New project 170806015107.png

Thoughs? Am i out of my mind? Any other speakers to shortlist?

My speaker budget is £3,500 give or take £500 excluding subwoofers as I'll probably go internet direct for that (suggestions welcome). I want to avoid costly mistakes and buying twice.
 
Ok, so the only speakers from my shortlist that I can audition locally (or in neighbouring countries/cities) are Procella!

The local JBL dealer can't even give me a price for the C211 o_O
American prices look very good, but with shipping might end up being as expensive as the Procella since the JBLs are heavy.

The Yamaha (IF2208) is a bit too deep in size and doesnt have a price advantage. So I don't want to take a gamble even though the specs look good.
 
A day of listening... mixed results!

I spent most of the day listening to various speaker set ups:

- Procella: 1st configuration was a dedicated cinema with all the accoustic treatments, AT screen, baffle wall, running P8s as LCR, P6s as surrounds and rears, P5iW for four in ceiling Atmos (so at least 7.1.4). The might have been using Trinov for the processing... I watched a few familiar Dolby trailers and the first scene of Gravity... Was brillliant, felt like a high end "real" cinema. Excellent imaging in both rows and it felt proper.

- Procella: 2nd configuration. 5.1 with P5s all around and in an all hard surface room, which was open to the showroom at the back. It was uncinematic and I really felt I was hearing how bad the room was rather than the speakers themselves. I watched various scenes from a ninja turtles movie as well as the same scenes from Gravity. It really showed how a poor room can hinder the cinematic experience.

- Big retailer experience: I went to the AV store of one of the bigger electronics retailers and listened very briefly to a few living room style set ups in the open plan area. All 5.1 packages.

1st I saw a bit of Mad Max and some Vin Diesel movid played on a B&W system. CM9s, CM Centre and a couple of bookshelf CM1s on stands for surrounds. B&W 610 sub. Not much care in the layout as there were other speakers in the way and on top of some of the B&Ws with dents in some of these other speakers! The sound was good. It had nice stereo imaging and the dialogue was clear. Not overly bright and the mid range was very good. But it wasn't very cinematic. I blame the layout a bit as it seemed worse than just throwing the speakers in someone's living room without much thought. At least I got a sense of the speakers general sound.

2nd I watched a bit of Mad Max again played through a Monitor Audio Bronze 5 system (5.1) in the same store as the B&W. Layout wasn't as bad as the B&W. Very different sounding speakers. Hard to describe in words. I want to say warmer, but I don't know if that is the right word. I liked them and they had good mid range, but I think I preferred the B&Ws style of sound, even though they're both nice.

- Audiophile Luxury systems dealer: Most of these were two channel systems focused on music. Brands I've never heard of (Devialet, Focal, Piega, etc…), some of which look like futuristic robots. Several (4 or 5) different rooms, each acoustically treated in a way that didn't seem too "dead" and they all looked good. Each with only a couple of speakers. Excellent presentation that really showed the equipment in their best light. They played various music. Most of the speakers sounded impressive, but i didn't spend much time with any specific one to be able to form an opinion. Most of these wouldn't work for my room or requirements, nor budget ($40,000+ for the Maetro Utopia! Anyone?) but was interesting nonetheless.

So, I'll basically so far it seems the choice is between Procella, which I have heard, or M&K Sound, which I haven't heard. One thing is clear, I am definitely spending a good amount of time, research and care to get my room acoustically treated and my system set up properly. Room makes a huge difference from what little I've listened to today.
 
Room makes a huge difference from what little I've listened to today.
Absolutely agree...part way through my room rebuild I got my ex-demo MK Sound MPS300 LCR hung on the wall and wired up. In the bare room they sounded awful, though I knew that it was the room having heard them previously in a decent room. Now that the room is (nearly) finished the sound is so much better (and a good step up from my previous MP150 now recycled as Atmos speakers).

I've owned Wharfdale, Acoustic Energy, Mission, PMC and various M&K speakers over the years, but this set up that has them optimally installed and in a treated room are by far the best I've had. Can't even see mine now, apart from the side surrounds, but you'd never guess they are 'thin' speakers.
 
@KelvinS1965 very inspiring build thread by the way. tastefull

I ended up increasing my budget and getting a set of Procella speakers. P6 for LCR, P5 for surrounds and P5iW for Atmos. Undecided on subs yet (2 vs. 4), but will probably not be Procella as my budget won't allow for that and the subs dont have to be in-wall.

On the speakers choice I decided it was best to go with something I have heard rather than with something i havent auditioned. Maybe I'll get a pair of smaller M&K in walls (or three for LCR) for the living room when it's time to upgrade that TV.

I've also ordered Floyd Toole's book and will probably get my room measured accouatically to sort out the treatmemts and bass equalisation.

I feel like I've learnt so much in the past 6 weeks and I'm glad I didn't rush my audio decision. I still have to pin down the electronics, but I know the parameters at least, whereas at the start I was flying blind... The people on this forum have bee very helpful via PM and in other threads as well.
 
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This is exactly the question I'm thinking about at the moment. I'm in the process of moving house and, having sold my whole system (it wouldn't have worked in the new place, more's the pity), I'll need a replacement.

The new system has to be very discrete as it'll be in a 'snug' rather than a dedicated cinema room. Thin speakers, and probably in-wall, are more or less a must. Currently, I'm planning to build a shallow baffle wall, ideally not much more than 10cm deep. The IW950s are top of my list as I'm familiar with and like the sound of M&K speakers.

Were there any other thin speakers, beyond those you mentioned, that you considered?

Re Toole's book: it's very good, but won't tell you too much about room treatment. It's more about speaker design and characteristics than about treatment, although there is a section on that, which is summarised at the end of the book. Bear in mind his views on treatment are contested. He questions the merits or treating first reflection points. The research he relies on supports the view that untreated first reflections in a cinema system (a) add a sense of spaciousness; (b) in any event, are overpowered by the surrounds. Conversely, most people swear by treating first reflections.
 
@DougAP

It's a shame your system wouldn't have fit your new home, but at least you have more experience behind you as you plan the new one.

I had an odd shortlist as I didn't really know what I was doing (still learning)...

I considered the KEF Custom Installation series (they have THX certified ones), but the dealer couldn't demonstrate them for me as he was switching out speakers in his demo room. Also, they seemed to be quite a bit more expensive in my country than in the UK.

I spoke with a local B&W dealer about their in-wall "cinema" speakers, but again there was no option to audition as he would have had to place an order for them. Also, I decided to get more sensitive (90+db 1w/1m) speakers like M&K or Procella (although the Procella are 8ohms vs 4ohms for M&K). I'd imagine a B&W demo shouldn't be too difficult in the UK.

I don't know what Triad or Paradigm's pricing is like in your area, but I took a quick look at their specs. Some of the better Triad in-wall/ceiling speakers look competitive spec-wise (well thought out ceiling speakers for atmos), but I'm not sure about the Paradigm in-walls (small drivers, but also very thin). The M&Ks should be better, but I haven't had the opportunity to listen to any of these. The Triad/Paradigm dealers in my area don't have a show room, just an office with an installation team, but they were very responsive about discussing options (big product range).

Not sure how big your room is, but Klipsch also have an in-wall set of THX certified (Select 2, i think) speakers. They have horns instead of dome tweeters, but are also very sensitive so there is a lot of SPL on tap. I think the mounting depth for the LCR was less than 10cm if I remember correctly. I'm sure there are a few dealers for thos in the UK. I didn't get a chance to audition, but I'd imagine they'd be cost effective if you like to play your movies loud.

If I'm not mistaken you had a nice set of XTZ speakers, so it'll be interesting to hear your thoughts as you try smaller/thinner speakers.

As to the accoustics, I'm still learning and reading. I won't be able to measure anything until I get furniture in the room. My room is very slightly asymetrical, so I will probably need some amount of absorption and defusion at the sides/first reflection to counter that at the very least. Also, the floors are hard (will have a large rug) and the room has a solid cinder block construction, so it's quite "live" now. I might have one corner available for a decent bass trap if I need it. I'll probably do a thread on it later. Right now I'm trying to shortlist subwoofers ;)
 
@DougAP

It's a shame your system wouldn't have fit your new home, but at least you have more experience behind you as you plan the new one.

I had an odd shortlist as I didn't really know what I was doing (still learning)...

I considered the KEF Custom Installation series (they have THX certified ones), but the dealer couldn't demonstrate them for me as he was switching out speakers in his demo room. Also, they seemed to be quite a bit more expensive in my country than in the UK.

I spoke with a local B&W dealer about their in-wall "cinema" speakers, but again there was no option to audition as he would have had to place an order for them. Also, I decided to get more sensitive (90+db 1w/1m) speakers like M&K or Procella (although the Procella are 8ohms vs 4ohms for M&K). I'd imagine a B&W demo shouldn't be too difficult in the UK.

I don't know what Triad or Paradigm's pricing is like in your area, but I took a quick look at their specs. Some of the better Triad in-wall/ceiling speakers look competitive spec-wise (well thought out ceiling speakers for atmos), but I'm not sure about the Paradigm in-walls (small drivers, but also very thin). The M&Ks should be better, but I haven't had the opportunity to listen to any of these. The Triad/Paradigm dealers in my area don't have a show room, just an office with an installation team, but they were very responsive about discussing options (big product range).

Not sure how big your room is, but Klipsch also have an in-wall set of THX certified (Select 2, i think) speakers. They have horns instead of dome tweeters, but are also very sensitive so there is a lot of SPL on tap. I think the mounting depth for the LCR was less than 10cm if I remember correctly. I'm sure there are a few dealers for thos in the UK. I didn't get a chance to audition, but I'd imagine they'd be cost effective if you like to play your movies loud.

If I'm not mistaken you had a nice set of XTZ speakers, so it'll be interesting to hear your thoughts as you try smaller/thinner speakers.

As to the accoustics, I'm still learning and reading. I won't be able to measure anything until I get furniture in the room. My room is very slightly asymetrical, so I will probably need some amount of absorption and defusion at the sides/first reflection to counter that at the very least. Also, the floors are hard (will have a large rug) and the room has a solid cinder block construction, so it's quite "live" now. I might have one corner available for a decent bass trap if I need it. I'll probably do a thread on it later. Right now I'm trying to shortlist subwoofers ;)

Thanks for that information - very useful. The problem I'd have with many of those options is the lack of demo facilities. Same with some of the other options I'd considered (e.g. the Dali in walls - one of which has a 12" driver, and isn't a sub!). That wouldn't be an issue with the M&K Sound option as I know of at least two reasonably close places to demo them. Certainly, on paper, the IW950s tick important boxes: high efficiency, and paintable grilles. Paintable grilles are fast becoming an absolute requirement for me the more I consider my install, as I'd like the speakers to be as close to invisible as possible.

You're correct, my most recent LCR speakers were XTZ M6s. They were excellent; I wouldn't be content with anything that doesn't sound comparably good. The speakers I had before those were M&K S150s, which I adored, although they were too big for a baffle wall I built so had to go. If the IW950s sound like the S150s, albeit with less output (it's a small room so that's fine), I'd definitely be very pleased with them.
 
I was in a similar position, very few demo possibilities.

The M&K Sound system seems to hit a good balance between performance* and aesthetics. In terms of price, while they're certainly not bargains, but given the importance of those two factors in a home setting, one could argue they make sense.

It doesn't matter how good or cheap a speaker is if it won't fit in the room or for the purpose.

I came very close to buying them, but didn't because i had no way of listening to them in my country. I ended up spending a lot more. If you have the time and opportunity to demo different speakers, take advantage. Let us know what those 12" Dalis sound like ;)

*Going off of specs and reviews/reputation.
 
Is it not worth going 4 speakers for Atmos? Everything I have read says that 4 is far better than 2

Either way, please keep updating on your thoughts as I and many will be considering the same speakers later.
 
@Uppsalaing , sorry to revive an old thread, but thinking of getting installing Procella 5xP6 in my new dedicated room, was wondering if you were pleased with the overall sound you achieved and what you ended up getting for subs and atmos.
 
@burtonpark No problem at all... I ended up with P6 for LCR and P5 for surrounds, with P5iW (in wall version of P5) for Atmos...

However my home renovations had to be delayed and i spend most of my time in another city these days, so I haven't bought subs yet... I did test the speakers out as I have them set up in my temporary room (untreated and without inceiling speakers) and they sound great. I watch a couple of movies a week when I'm home and it always performs. In movies like Mother! and Gravity the imaging and how the dialogue and effects move around the room is excellent. I am happy with it in terms of performance.

However, think of your system as a whole. You seem like you have a considerable investment and I don't know if you are as constrained by space as I was. There might be less expensive options that deliver the right sound in your space if you can fit larger speakers.

The Procella subs are out of my budget, but as I'm overseas most other brands subs are quite expensive as well due to shipping costs. I'll need to research a bit later and might have to buy something I haven't heard as local options are limited.

I highly recommend a demo before buying your speakers, with a movie you are familiar with. It was the right choice for me given my space constraints and performance requirements.
 
The P6 and P5’s are fantastic speakers. The brand new MK150 series are well worth an audition too.

We will be swapping out our current demo MK LCR for the new IW150’s.

Rich@Seriously.
 
@burtonpark No problem at all... I ended up with P6 for LCR and P5 for surrounds, with P5iW (in wall version of P5) for Atmos...

However my home renovations had to be delayed and i spend most of my time in another city these days, so I haven't bought subs yet... I did test the speakers out as I have them set up in my temporary room (untreated and without inceiling speakers) and they sound great. I watch a couple of movies a week when I'm home and it always performs. In movies like Mother! and Gravity the imaging and how the dialogue and effects move around the room is excellent. I am happy with it in terms of performance.

However, think of your system as a whole. You seem like you have a considerable investment and I don't know if you are as constrained by space as I was. There might be less expensive options that deliver the right sound in your space if you can fit larger speakers.

The Procella subs are out of my budget, but as I'm overseas most other brands subs are quite expensive as well due to shipping costs. I'll need to research a bit later and might have to buy something I haven't heard as local options are limited.

I highly recommend a demo before buying your speakers, with a movie you are familiar with. It was the right choice for me given my space constraints and performance requirements.

The P6 and P5’s are fantastic speakers. The brand new MK150 series are well worth an audition too.

We will be swapping out our current demo MK LCR for the new IW150’s.

Rich@Seriously.
Thanks Both,
I’ve heard some high cinemas and in order the Steinway Lingdorf, Procella and the RBH have impressed most, though I have owned the MK 150 Mk2, for me the dynamics and the small woofers and reliance on the sub for vocals below the 80Hz region was noticable. Presently, I have the B&W CT7.3 LCR in an untreated room which still offer great weight and extension, but athough it’s very very good it not the absolute best cinema sound I’ve ever heard, so always thinking of the next +1% upgrade and what to install in my new baffle wall setup.
 
Happy to supply some nice in wall SL’s for you.

In a bass managed system the majority of speakers will be crossed at 80hz or above. If set up correctly then you shouldn’t notice the sub on vocals. It should be seamless.
 
Is it not worth going 4 speakers for Atmos? Everything I have read says that 4 is far better than 2

Either way, please keep updating on your thoughts as I and many will be considering the same speakers later.

Sorry for not replying sooner, as I missed this.. I chose 2 inceiling speakers because my room is quite small and I only have one row of seating. I haven't installed the atmos speakers yet, as my room isn't ready.
 
5x P6 speakers and 1 x P10 now temporarily setup.
Even in the untreated room the Procella sound is incredibly cinematic - dialogue is razor sharp and the music and effects seem to layer seamlessly with each nuance of sound being identifiable. These P6 speakers sound much much bigger than the boxes!! The P10 sub is very well mannered and does seem to smoothly integrate with the mains, maybe not quite as deep as some subs I’ve had, but plenty loud enough and a very controlled overall sound. I had bought some Dali H60 for atmos duties with the B&W 7.3 LCR but now thinking the P5iW may be a better choice, although my ceiling height is only 2.4m?
 
@burtonpark Congratulations... I'm glad you like them and hopefully you'll enjoy them for years to come...

I think they'll really come into their own once you get your room treated (a must for this level of speaker in my opinion), but yes, these speaker do sound good :smashin:
 

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