Answered The vast majority of OLEDs can't reach 1000 nits. Why are Hollywood movies mastered in 4000 nits?

Discussion in 'OLED TVs Forum' started by CosmicZeppelin, Oct 17, 2018.

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  1. CosmicZeppelin

    CosmicZeppelin
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    I'm trying to educate myself on current TV technologies and this got me confused. Even most LED LCDs don't come close to 4000 nits. OLEDs are having a hard time reaching 1000 nits. Why are so many movies mastered at 4000 nits when there are no TVs that can benefit from that? I don't think it's future proofing considering that most 4k blu-ray movies are mastered at 2k resolution still.

    I understand that most TVs will perform a tonemapping algorythm to map the metadata to the capabilities of the TV but seeing as there is no standard how to map the PQ eotf curve to a lower peak brightnes panel manufacturers have taken very different approaches with some trying to preserve specular highlight detail by sacrificing APL and others trying to preserve APL while clipping away the specular highlight detail.

    I've read that Bladerunner 2049 is even going further than that. It's being mastered to a peak brightness of 10000 nits. Can someone explain to me why hollywood studios are choosing to go for such unrealistic figures?
     
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    Post #11 by lgans316, Oct 26, 2018 (1 points)
  3. tigertimtim

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    Because there idiots and think nothing of consumers watching on tv sets that can't reach such levels.....All Hdr formats including Dolby Vision should have being set at 1,000 nits thereby allowing customers to more or less watch a film/show as the director intended,
     
  4. Goldorak

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    9277B32E-82E9-486B-BFF8-408F99B328B6.png HA HA HA I wish it was that simple...

    Your post is very interesting and kept me busy for a while like a good puzzle to solve

    My own research led me to the following reasons for that fact (4000-10,000 nits instead of just 1000 nits):

    1. Real Life brightness: it is about capturing the reality of the scene like the eye sees it or close. I attach this picture that shows you that 1000 nits and even 18000 nits is barely covering a light bulb.
    Best analogy to understand is music. Think resolution and bandwidth versus what our ear can process and hear. You can hear difference between mp3 to hd to high resolution music when played on proper hardware.
    2. Color volume: this is a very important point which is key. I will try to retrieve an article that explains how it is Impacting our perception of the colours which is exponentially improved the brighter you get...
    Again, the best analogy is photography and simply a dimming light in a room or being outside on a very bright day. Color explose and appear far more vibrant and nuanced when we up the light (sun being the extreme of course).
    3. Peak brightness is too often misunderstood. It is not because you have a car that can hit 300 km/h or 600 Horse power that you will drive at that speed or torque all the time...barely reaching that peak.
    What it does however is giving you a much wider dynamic range which has a dramatic impact on a picture

    Who cares you will say as 1000 nits is plenty enough? To some extent, YES because we have been used to SD ridiculous nits so long that anything else is perceived like that skeleton melting in Terminator...
    We have to re-learn to watch tv and all our programmes...same as some are rediscovering their music in high res...
    The simplest of the reason is simply because our eyes can process a lot more information/colours/nuances than what we are provided right Now.
     
  5. Goldorak

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    This is a complicated article but if one has the patience to read it, it is super useful...
    Color Volume: Measuring and Understanding What it Means | Reference Home Theater

    The most useful sentence to justify a higher nits calibration ceiling is Dolby Vision way to measure and articulation (most important word being « distinguishable colours » which increase dramatically with higher volume/nits):

    Dolby has introduced their own method for reporting on what displays can do for color volume, called Perceptual Color Volume. It uses a different color space and tells you how many millions of different « distinguishable colors » a display can show. We are not targeting a specific gamut, but instead using 10,000 nits, no preset gamut, and then finding how many colors in there we can display

    I am done and other proper « expert » will for sure ship in. For now, thank you for making me revisit my basics.
     
  6. wxman2003

    wxman2003
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    Watching in a dark room, with no lights on, the last thing I want to see is a specular highlight at 18,000 nits blinding me. Like shining a flashlight right intro my eyes. Yes, you are briefly blinded when that happens.
     
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  7. Hixs

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    The goal for peak nits is just a number game for the tv nerds. I'm good with whatever peak brightness my tv reaches. It's enough to make me squint in a dark room.
     
  8. GadgetObsessed

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    Specular highlights of even the brightest displays should nto be that blinding.

    Remember nits refers to candelas per m2 so if the specular highlight is say 2,000 nits over n area of 1cm square then it will be equivalent to about 0.2 candelas.

    If a candle produces 1 candela of light from an area of 1cm squared then that must be equivalent to 10,000 nits.

    Although as I understand it nits is not a measure of total light output. If one candle is equivalent to 10,000 nits then 2 candles next to each other is also 10,000 nits i.e. the brightness per square cm has not changed even though there is twice as many candles and twice as much total light.

    A TV displaying a specular highlight of 10cm squared (10x10) at 1,000 nits will be putting out 10 times as much total light as a TV displaying a specular highlight of 1cm squared at 10,000 nits.
     
  9. CosmicZeppelin

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    Thanks for the answers. I still don't understand why movies are mastered in 4000 nits though. I get that it's desirable to get there someday but since there are no TVs that can display it, doesn't it create more of a problem considering there are no standards in place for tonemapping and every TV manufacturer has their own method essentially creating completely different pictures?

    The article Goldorak posted mentions that SDR was mastered at 100 nits even though most TVs were capable of outputting more. By that logic wouldn't it make more sense mastering HDR material at the lowest common denominator as well so that TVs don't have to roll off the pq eotf curve to display the specular highlight details in the master?
     
  10. ShanePJ

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    I suppose your question could also point to the music industry too with original master recordings. Us mere mortals never hear whats been truly recorded (even though they say its a master copy reproduction) like we never see what's been truly filmed.

    But I guess its just a benchmark for them to play with and gives them enough quality to compress the formats for everyone to experience at a good level. If technology catches up, it also enables them to revive it too. Those who are good at it know what the enthusiast want and those who are not produce material which we all question.
     
  11. Goldorak

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    And the analogy to music is the most powerful way to answer this question. The ceiling is higher because like music, it needs to record at the highest possible quality. You can always compress...
    Why? Because the intention in music and video is to stick the closest to reality aka like you are there..
    100 nits is a disaster, 1000 is ok, 4000 nits is starting to be interesting as a range. 10,000 close to perfect.
     
  12. lgans316

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    Best Answer
    OP,

    You seem.to be well educated on nits and tone mapping. So stop caring about being mastered at higher nits as the TV is able to do handle it internally. Don't follow the rabbit hole and get stuck inside. Don't worry too much about nits and peak brightness. Sit back and enjoy your TV..

    Take these shootouts. It is always OLEDs winning HDR category despite lower peak brightness. The latest Sony AF9 is able to tone map up to 5000.nits better than other ultra bright TVs. Yes it is important but not the single most important factor.

    If it's mastered at greater than 1000 nits just consider that as future proofing by the content creators.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  13. stranger

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    Just start to worry if you have to keep scratching your head.
     
  14. martinthorn1

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    How many nits can a typical cinema projector throw out? I don't remember ever being particularly blinded at any theatrical film viewing?
    As others state above, being temporarily blinded watching a film would not be that much fun!
     
  15. ashenfie

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    Well think of it this way and then you realise they are not idiots. Dolby have a stake holding in film mastering/production and also DV/HDR.

    They pushed HDR for free but basically a limited version of DV with the aim to getting DV off the ground off the back of HDR. The only real way to make that plan work is if DV looks better then HDR. Therefore pushing mastering at 4000nits makes sense as you really need DV to get the colour right.

    So yes films mastered at 1000nit basically works well with HDR and are improved little or nothing by DV.

    Basically the plan worked and dolby have a market and we have DV
     

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