The Tesla Charging Network

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by gangzoom, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    This is exactly why Tesla have got it so right with their supercharger network and other manufactures still don't get it. A road trip in a Tesla from the UK to pretty much anywhere in Europe is no harder than taking the combustion car, and totally FREE interms of fuel costs. The Supercharging network is now really impressive, and long distance trips really is not an issue. I cannot wait to take ours to Norway, just need to wait till the little one can sit in the car for a bit longer than 2hrs :).

    The Tesla Supercharger network is also why the Model 3 is so appealing compared to other cheaper EVs when it finally arrives in the UK in a few years time. For £35Kish your get 250-300 miles of real life range, and access to the Tesla Supercharger network. Or for £25K you can get Nissan/Renault etc with similar range but no access to RELIABLE and FAST charging. Tesla Superchargers are delivering 100KW+ of charge right now, compared to 40KW for Ecotricity chargers, and instead of only having 1-2 chargers per charging point your looking at 6+ - so the chance of not finding a free charger when you arrive is small.

    I wouldn't let your experience of deflate your EV bubbles, it's simply a learning experience of what needs to improve. If you do ever try a Tesla Supercharger your know what am talking about, it really is a totally different experience compared to using Ecotricity chargers. For the miles you do it'll bring your EV ownership experience up to another level!!

    I would have loved not to spend £70K+ on a Tesla but instead get a cheaper EV, but having owned a limited range EV I was acutely aware of the problems associated with using one as a family replacement car. Having now done 7K miles in a EV with 200 miles of real life range, access to reliable/fast en-route charging, for me current EV tech is already good enough.....all that remains is to lower the price of entry, which is happening :).

    [​IMG]

    Tesla Model S – European Road Trip in France, Spain and Portugal

    Tesla Model X Eurotrip Norway-Greece
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
  2. gingerone

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    I currently drive a Toyota CHR Hybrid and I hope that my next car will be a full EV.
    What is the Tesla supercharger network and how does it differ to normal charging for an EV?
    As an aside I have just come back from France on a two week holiday and the CHR was a dream to drive and saved us a fortune in fuel.
     
  3. IronGiant

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    The Tesla network is only available to Tesla owners so is of no real interest to owners of other EV vehicles, other than as an example of how an EV charging network can be run. It has multiple very fast chargers at each point, and it is for now run as a loss leader in that it is free to use for current owners. For further info, please ask in the Tesla threads.
     
  4. Clem_Dye

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    It might be being run as a loss-leader for now, but if Tesla ownership rises, then not only will there potentially bottlenecks when you get to a Tesla charging point, at some point it will become a chargeable service. A loss-leading model is only sustainable for a limited period of time.

    Clem
     
  5. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    The three main difference:
    1. Speed of charging, nearly three times quicker than anything else on the market.
    2. No faffing with cards/phone apps to start the charge, you simply plug in, the car than talks to the charger/network
    3. Number of chargers at each stop - Instead of just 1-2 most Tesla charger points have 6+ chargers.
    You can also plan the whole trip through your car, no needs for apps, simply tell the car where you want to go and it calculates everything for you. You can literally plan your European trip from your car in a few seconds.

    [​IMG]

    As for cost, Model 3 owners will have to pay to use the network, current price is around 20p/kWh which is slightly more expensive than charging at home, but still much much cheaper than petrol/diesel - 5p per mile for fuel assuming 4miles per kWh versus 10p per mile in a combustion car doing a true 50mpg and current fuel prices.

    It demonstrate just how easy EV use is when you have a proper well integrated charging network, @Stuart Wright is quite right on his conclusion trying to use his current EV for a pan-European road trip is madness due to lack of range/nightmare planning for charging.

    If a company as small/young as Tesla can setup such a good/usable solution why cannot VAG/Nissan/Ford etc?? Traditional car companies need to start doing things differently if they want to really push EVs.
     
  6. lovegroova

    lovegroova
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    A few questions:

    1. What's the average speed attained for the trip shown?
    2. How far is the trip shown?
    3. How many stops are required?
    4. How does the Tesla charging cost of 20p/kwh compare to a non Tesla charging point?

    Thanks
     
  7. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Cannot really answer 1-3 we've yet to drive that far, but plenty of people have. But roughly speaking at 70mph your be looking at 200 miles between charging, so a 30-40 mintue stop every 3hrs or so.

    300 miles between stops is now possible with the 100kWh Model S and in theory the long range Model 3. That would push to stopping 30-40 mintues every 4 hrs.

    An 1800km road trip through Europe in a Tesla Model S

    As for cost, Ecotricity pumps charge 17p/ kWh but there is a £3 connection charge. So your overall cost is going to be similar. Your home electricty cost will be roughly 15p/kWh unless your on E7 in which case overnight charging will be around 5-6p/kWh. So charging at home will be cheaper.
     
  8. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    So I just had a look at traveling to Interlaken using the Tesla, we did a similar trip 3 years ago in the 335i.

    According to the car its 745 miles, and once in Europe will need to stop 2-3 times to charge, from home its 17hrs.

    [​IMG]

    From memory when we did the trip before we started in Dover at 5am and got to the hotel at 6pm ish, so in reality taking the EV would add 1-2hrs max to the whole trip.

    The average speed for the whole trip was just under 50mph, that included 150mph runs on the Autobahn. Cannot wait to do the same trip again but in an EV this time!!
    [​IMG]
     
  9. lovegroova

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    Thanks for that, it's useful. It seems that an EV, even a Tesla, is a fair bit slower than an ICE for that sort of trip.
    For the Calais onwards part, it's 3 stops of 30 mins+ versus 1 of 5 mins+ (I wouldn't do the 430 miles 6 1/2 hours drive without a stop, though some might).
     
  10. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    So Tesla have now developed a small charging station that can deliver 73KW sustained, and delopyed them in Boston to help residents who live in cities but don't have a driveway.

    Given how quickly Tesla have pushed out regular Superchargers this move is going to put Tesla so much more ahead than the competition. More manufactures need to invest in their own charging network ASAP and not leave it to third parties whom uptill now have had little success.

    Incidently Tesla have also just added a whole load of 'normal' Supercharger locations, I already have access to chargers in Northampton, Milton Keyens, M25 on my regular 100 mile trip from Leicster to London (not that I've ever needed to charge at any of them).

    http://jalopnik.com/tesla-just-quietly-solved-the-biggest-problem-to-electr-1803131855
     
  11. LV426

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    I don't agree with that, at all. It is not EV manufacturers who should be creating their own, private charging networks dedicated solely to their own marque; that's just pointless duplication to the disadvantage of the whole EV community.

    Rather it should be the case that each and every EV charge point is available to each and every EV (just as fossil fuel is), without the need to own a specific car marque, nor to belong to any membership scheme or otherwise; simply to pay what is due at the time of charging. It is not beyond the wit of man for the system to permit (for example) a Tesla owner to get such a charge for "free" whereas a Nissan owner at the same place might pay his £6 or whatever.
     
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  12. lovegroova

    lovegroova
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    Amen to that!
     
  13. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    @LV426 and @lovegroova : Have you guys used non Tesla chargers to charge up an EV??

    Am 100% sure in the future charging sites will be standard like current petrol stations but run by different vendors. But for now every third party EV chargers runs their own method of payment/and even different connectors!!

    The plug Tesla use is fully compatible with alot of current EVs, and the software implementation is fab. The costs of the charge is directly billed to the car owner, you dont need an app or card or even carry payment option with you. Its only currently free because Tesla want to promote EVs, from next year new owners and all Model 3 owners will need to pay roughly 20p/kWh.

    Tesla have said they are happy to work with other manfactures and share the charging network, but to date no one else has build anything remotely as good as the Supercharger sites for Tesla to go into partnership with.

    Imgaine how quickly the EV charging network would develop if BMW/Nissan all built their own Supercharging network, and than in 2020 all the companies choose to work together and share their chargers??

    The sooner other manfactures realise this the better.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  14. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Whilst I agree with the overall approach, the reality is that it wasn't happening. If it wasn't for Tesla doing this themselves nothing would have happened.
     
  15. lovegroova

    lovegroova
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    How would I do that? I don't own an EV as there is not one that's made that meets my needs at present.

    At present, with my petrol cars, I can go to any petrol station and fill it up. The petrol is the same (well, near enough anyway), the pump is the same, and it's super convenient.

    With EVs, it's a completely different story, there are different connectors, you can't use any charger anywhere, many seem to be inoperable much of the time (this is gleaned from reading Gordon's Ioniq thread).

    It's bloody stupid. Tesla needs to gt together with the other manufacturers and sort it out. Or governments need to step in.
     
  16. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    It looks to me like that is what Tesla attempted to do, didn't get very far and in true Elon style was like fudge it, we do it my way then....
     
  17. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    It ia stupid but we also live in a world driven by the market and consumer spending. The quickest and easiest way to persuade any company to do something is for consumers to make demands on features/products they want.

    Teslas intergated and seemless EV charging experience is the way EV charging needs to progress. Not only do I not need to bother with phone apps/charging cards, enroute planning for charging can be done directly on the car, and it even shows how many of the charging stalls is free.

    Getting the car right is only half the story, itll be interesting to see how the Jag iPace sells. Itll be very similar to price/performance/range of a Tesla but relies on public charging for long distance trips. It'll be polarising experience for the iPace owners when they first try to use an Ecotricity charger, having to fiddle with the App, worrrying about Leafs/Zoe also using the charger, and than only been able to charge at 50KW. Compared to a Tesla which will pull into the next bay with anything upto 16 charge points, plug into the Supercharger, and than be ready to go in less than half the time whilst charging at 120KW...am pretty sure after a few such experiences Jag owners will be demanding a similar Jag branded charging network given the similar price points of the cars.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
  18. lovegroova

    lovegroova
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    Or they'll be demanding to use the Tesla chargers... Having a motorway service station full of manufacturer specific chargers is stupid as well.

    Given the vast subsidies Tesla has received from governments, perhaps some give and take will be required at some point in future?:
    Elon Musk's growing empire is fueled by $4.9 billion in government subsidies
     
  19. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    People aren't suggesting that Tesla should downgrade to the same crap service available to the rest of us, rather that the rest need to follow Tesla's excellent example, so don't take offence gz :) However it would make much more sense if there was one single network, unless you snobs in your £70K cars don't want to mix with the plebs ;) Let's follow the Tesla model, just plug in and it recognises the vehicle, jobs a good'un. Don't forget, the only reason the Tesla network is so excellent is that Musk has vision, and extremely deep pockets. Unfortunately the other Manufacturers have to follow a profit making model and I doubt they could roll out anything like it without losing money, at the moment.
    If the government is serious about getting ICE vehicles off the roads then they need to do something about public charging, whether that be subsiding Tesla to extend their network with access to all, forcing other networks to up their game and certainly, introducing a Gold standard (probably spelled with a capital T).
     
  20. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Oh this old chest nut again, Tesla have long paid off their US government debt. If you really want to look into autocar maker debt have a look at how much GM and Chrysler have taken from the US government, and am not sure how much of that $64billion they have paid back!!

    Tesla have a charging network/solution that works, its now up to others to show their solution.

    Automakers' Report Card: Who Still Owes Taxpayers Money? The Answer Might Surprise You
     
  21. lovegroova

    lovegroova
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    Not debt, subsidies - they are different things altogether.

    Weren't early buyers of Model 3s able to get a government subsidy? I think the answer is "yes".
     
  22. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    To be honest, rather than just subsidising cars, they should be subsiding charging, maybe at a fixed rate of one new Tesla quality public charger per x number of cars sold. Now, while I sympathise with gz's "we've got a perfectly good network so sod off and get one of your own", I don't think that's the way forward if we are to be an integrated EV community :) Clearly other manufacturers have no interest in public charging, they seem to think one or two points at their dealerships is sufficient. So what is to be done?
     
  23. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    I have no interest in getting into another 'debate' about how Tesla have an unsustainable business model.

    Heres some articels about how Tesla is doomed to fail over the last few years: So don't worry your concerns about Tesla is well shared ;)



    Why Electric Carmaker Tesla Motors Will Likely Be Acquired

    GM Could Put Tesla Out Of Business Tomorrow If It Wanted

    It might be time for Tesla to get out of the car business

    As for the concept of 'subsidies' its pretty common in every industry, the oil industry been one of the biggest takers of government money.

    UK becomes only G7 country to increase fossil fuel subsidies
     
  24. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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  25. IronGiant

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    Slightly off topic, but whenever I try and visit the Tesla site to look at the charging network map I get diverted to the Spanish site:mad:. I think I'm being punished for looking for Spanish dealers once :laugh:
     
  26. lovegroova

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    So far as I'm aware I've not had such a debate before, and I've no idea why you think I was suggesting that Tesla had an unsustainable business model. Your post is a bit bizarre/bonkers in that regard.

    All I was suggesting was that Tesla might share its network for the greater good of promoting the use of EVs in general - they made a big show of sharing their patents, so why not the chargers? Especially as they've benefited/are benefiting so much from government subsidies, subsidies which come from the general population, and not just Tesla owners.
     
  27. outoftheknow

    outoftheknow
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    Manufacturers of EVs need simply to provide a standard connection and let the market provide the network. Remember when every phone manufacturer had a specific charger connection?

    I realise Tesla owners can loom at their network with pride and everybody else with envy but I don't agree that manufacturers are resposible for a charging network. It is a service and as mentioned it is pointless every marque providing theirs. They can't agree to all chip in a proportion of the cost so third parties step in. If there are issues with availability and the points working take it up with the provider. Ultimately at some point the provider will need to balance costs to build and maintain with income. It is better not to have one provider since they can hold all owners to ransom.

    As more EVs are bought and people venture out beyond charging at home the charging points will improve. Business model as and commercial sense say it won't happen the other way round except where one company can access capital and live with the cost of accessing it.
     
  28. IronGiant

    IronGiant
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    "Nationalise" it :devil:

    There I said it, grabs coat...:D
     
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  29. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    All EVs are made equal, but some are more equal than others :).

    I think that about sums up the mess we call civilisation.
     
  30. Squiffy

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    Get out and don't come back!

    Petrol stations aren't nationalised, why should charging points be?

    The market can innovate. Restaurants and cinemas might provide top up charging as part of their services. Or park n ride services might offer charging. Or high end green services might spring up powered by local solar and wind. The possibilities are endless once they aren't bound by having to manage highly flammable liquids that need to be stored in specialist facilities.

    But not if the government runs it!
     

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