Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Miyazaki, Sep 10, 2005.
What is your reaction to these comments?
Terrorists are winning by taking advantage of our own liberties and the fanatical view of some that would put those liberties before our own survival.
I figure after the first terror nuke strike the west will finally wake up and fight this war in the manner it should be, as it would have been during WWII.
well the early comments in that article are from that bloke Shayler, he is hardly likely to have a nice word to say about the intelligence services who put him in jail for 6 months ? He also seems to be the current 'rent a mouth ' whenever anyone wants a quote against MI 5 or 6.
Whether or not our civil liberties are changed matters little if they are changed for the right reason and can always be changed back again once the particular threat is over. There is no definitive list of what our liberites should look like is there ? I mean they are always a balance, the good of society v's the good of the individual.
I have no problem if that balance changes in order to protect me or my fellow citizens. The important thing is that the changes are agreed with our political representatives and that there is a certain level of in build scrutiny in the process.
Exactly; such was the case during WWII where we temporarily lost many more of our liberties than we have in the so-called war on terror.
I think things like increased powers to MI5 aren't a problem, I don't mind anybody tapping my phone etc, as I don't plan any bombings so they aren't gonna interested in me at all..
The police already have the power to take you away in handcuffs and lock you away for the rest of your life, but only if you've done something wrong so not a worry for the vast majority of us..?
I worry more about spyware getting on my PC, and where all that junkmail comes from, and who is selling them my address...?
If MI5 get heavily into 'personal' data, that kind of situation may even improve as banks/councils/ISPs etc are being monitored themselves..?
A different topic altogether.
not playing lide...
Nothing to play with. What I said is obviously true.
Lets try and stick to the topic, ok?
Lide, if you are so worried about getting blown up, then try getting rid of that fool that you have in the White House. If he tries the same stupid trick with Iran that he tried with Iraq, your country will be so awash with terrorists that you won't be able to move. Have you (or anyone else in America) ever stopped to think why the Arab world hates you so much that they want to blow you up ? Forget about "fighting a war on terror", try thinking instead - you may find it a novel experience !
look, I doubt that Lide needs anyone to speak for him, however, this thread has just gone off topic and he has been attacked for what I don't think was a contentious post.
personally I am feeling uncomfortable posting here as the vitriol pours out whenever someone speaks in any way supporting the american view. I count myself fairly neutral politically but I am almost frightened to post on a topic such as this one as I will likely get attacked as being too right wing ?
Why has the thread gone off topic ? The topic is about the "war on terror", isn't it ? Don't you think the actions of America (and the UK) in the invasion of Iraq and Afhanistan are in part to blame for the increase in terrorism ?
Bush and Blair don't think so, but there's a heck of a lot of people both sides of the Atlantic that do. Curtailing our lives so much so that the terrorists can't get us is playing directly into their hands, and is exactly what they want.
with respect I took the OP to be asking specifically about the protection of civil liberties, I didn't think that required allegations of the causes of the Iraq war.
IMHO the Iraq war is completely separate from the war on terror, but the invasion of Iraq has lead to an increase in "terrorism" not least by the main purpetrators of terror Bush and Blair but this is
I really wanted to concentrate on the debate between the erosion of civil liberties vs safety of British citizens.
IMHO freedom should be have no compromises, there is not one civil liberty worth giving up, even if it lead to millions of westerners dead. Our country has fought for freedom, and lost far too many lives over the past 1400 of anglo-saxon civilisation to give them up to a few radical extremists.
No matter what atrocities Al-Quada visit upon us, we should not be cowed. These extremists want Britain to be void of the tenents of human rights and democracy, and by eroding our civil liberties we are on that slippery slope.
The "war" on terror is a misnomer. It is not a war, it never was. The term "war on terror" was coined by Bush as an excuse to invade Afghanistan and Iraq. Ironically, the vacuum he has left in both countries have led to far worse situations than were there before. But I must apoligise here for going again.
What makes you think that if we reach that point that people from that part of the world will be allowed in.
That time is coming, along with relocation camps just like during WWII.
Terrorists have already proven that they don't need any rational reason to do what they do.
Yes, yes, the poor Middle Easterns are so oppresed by evil America.
Try not to be insulting.
ID cards, it has been said, would not have stopped the 7/7 attacks. Therefore, I can see no logical reason why they should be introduced. As a liberal, I think the billions would be much better spent on more and better policing and better port controls.
What if that policing becomes much more geared towards profiling those likely to be from the Middle East? After all, all crime prevention and investigation is essentially based on profiling.
As a liberal would you support that over questioning little old ladies?
I agree - to an extent. For example, in Germany in recent years they have allowed extreme right wing groups political freedom for the first time since WW2. The problem is, almost immediately, they have begun mass terrorising of immigrants, fatal attacks on individuals, and the 'old' NAZI's have begun openly funding their defence in any court brought against these thugs.
You could argue that all this has done is bring the NAZI's out into the open, but, all it in fact has done has made thousands (and I mean thousands!) of peoples lives a misery. The whole situation has already started to get out of control.
The question is then, is there no liberties that should be given away to stop terrorism and the violent?
I'm sure there are plenty of Germans who already think there is.
With the same results no doubt. The spreading of fear, resentment, and further dissent.
You mean don't think the US involvement in................ oh forget it, whats the point?
Sorry guru, the latter is
Well try this - why is it that America only invades countries that can't effectively fight back ? Bush said that he invaded Iraq because Saddam was hiding "weapons of mass destruction". However, we know that N Korea is probably working on an atomic bomb, and China has had them for ages. Why hasn't America hasn't invaded them ? Could it be that they might fight back ?
Yes, Lide, by that definition, you certainly are the oppressors ! Pity that Iraq is turning into another Vietnam for you.
It didn't harm the war effort at all and probably saved lives. Certainly not ideal but necessary under the circumstances.
Yes, please, no off-topic stuff.
Do I have to explain to you the destructive power of a nuke.
We likely lost the chance with loony N. Korea.
You mean like Europe and Japan and N. Korea were oppressed?
I'm sure you wish to see Iraq become a Vietnam, a war with a just cause, to the detriment of the Iraqi people just so you can say you were right all along.
Ahh, so you admit that America is a nation of cowards, only attacking those who can't retalliate ?
Lost cause. See ya.
Who said it harmed the war effort? There is also a very strong argument that is was NOT neccary.
It's already happening, you'll be tied up there for years - I hope you're not of conscription age !
Tell me, if the people of Iraq are so overjoyed to be freed of their tyrannical leader, why do they keep trying to blow up your troops ? (and in some cases succeeding !)
Retreating Lide ? How typical
I think the bombing is being done by insurrgents who are a small part of a muslim minority sect in Iraq, plus many former Saddam supporters and foreign nationals supported by funds and weapons from Iran, and frankly they couldn't care less about peace in Iraq, otherwise wouldn't they have fought against Saddam ?
sorry off topic, but everyone else seems to be ....
Which terrorists are we talking about. There are plenty of them around the world at any given time. The ANC, IRA, Basques etc were all or still are viewed as terrorists and all killed 'civilians' yet they do not seem to be covered by the 'war on terrorism'
Not all terrorists come from the Middle East.
Separate names with a comma.