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The slow but sure demise of my ae700

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by fallwood, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. fallwood

    fallwood
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    Well ive had my 700 for about 3.5 months now and have racked up about 850 hrs on it so far. First 400 hrs were fault free apart from some slight pinkish tinging in the bottom corners, most probably due to the excessive amount of lens shift I use (ceiling mounted) so not that bothered as it can only be seen on a pure white screen. 400-500hrs noticed a couple a flickers now and then whilst web browsing, put it down to the iris having a bit of a fit and though nothing of it. 500-550 flickering now very prominent, seems to come in short bursts and then disappears, ring panasonic to tell them and to arrange a repair.550-650hrs somewhere in this region dust contamination starts to appear , seems to be on the red panel as its only noticable on reds , appears on the right side of the screen from the top to about half way down, not heat damage definately dust (lots of it) . 650-750hrs cannot use pj in low lamp anymore flicker is constant (I mean constant like a strobe) and I am fearfull that the bulb will blow due to the constant flickering ,switch to high mode in the hope that it will get me through christmas without dying. 750-850hrs dust contamination on red panel now very bad, on the red screen in service menu it covers most of the right hand side of the screen. So there you have it, an accelerated long term use profile of my ae700. Im sure many of you have read about my problems with previous pj's and a few of you have said that they are not designed to take the stick that I give them , according to panasonic it should not be a problem but it clearly is. I had hoped that this would be my last pj purchase for a while as the complete re-design of the ae700 assured me that panasonic had aknowledged the technical flaws of earlier models (heat damage due to bad cooling , dust contamination etc) but here I am again waiting for it to be picked up for repair. I know I said it was the last straw with the 500 but this really is it , never again will I buy a panasonic projector (even though it is the best on the market picture wise) they are just too unreliable for heavy use, if you only want to use it for a few films per week then fine, if you want to use it a lot (why the hell wouldnt you, cant see the point of buying something and then limiting the amount you use it) then save up and buy a more robust model. Sorry for the long post, just thought everyone would like a look into the future and the possible faults that may occur.
     
  2. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Many people, including myself, would disagree with that statement strongly.

    I'm sorry you've had so many problems though :mad:
     
  3. fallwood

    fallwood
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    Picture quality is a very personal thing and unless their are huge differences between one machine and another is a difficult argument to resolve. I am open to suggestion as to which machine you think is the better as I will probably be looking to change the 700 for something more reliable after its been repaired.
     
  4. Lil in Spain

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    I have ordered my 700 which should be arriving any time now, it will be my first pj and hopefully will LAST a while. With about 10 hours use a week (DVD and SKY+) am I looking to run into problems like you are having in the not too distant future?
     
  5. fallwood

    fallwood
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    I would say you should be ok, 10hrs a week is fairly light use, I use that in a day. The problems seem to start when you start to give them some heavy use (8-12 hrs per day) extended runtimes seem to age the machine very rapidly and I wouldnt recommend running it for long periods on a regular basis. Ive killed 7 panasonic pjs now through heavy use so i'd advise that you keep your runtimes as low as possible. Not everyone has the problems I've had and I'm sure msot people dont have any problems at all, I just seem to be unlucky with pj's.
     
  6. UrbanT

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    Thats exactly my point, but your statement was written as a matter of fact. :thumbsup:
     
  7. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    It's always a shame, not to say a little annoying, when things go wrong with a PJ, especially one that gets used a lot! However, there are a couple of things that immediately spring to mind when reading your original post - I wonder if it's the usage with your PJs that's the problem, or at least in part, the way you treat the PJ. I do feel for you, but I regard a PJ and servicing pretty much as I do a car - the more use it gets the more servicing it needs.


    You say that you noticed problems (dust contamination) but merely kept on using the Panny - it might have been wiser to have it serviced, rather than keep on hammering it. The instruction book states early on that not only should the AE700 be cleaned out at least once a year, but if dust is left to build up inside then fire or problems with operation can be the result. If similar things have happened with previous PJs perhaps you need to service the units more regularly?

    Please don't take this as me "having a pop" at you - I'm not! It's just that I often think it's all to easy to apportion blame without taking some responsibility. Of course, if the unit is within warranty, then Panasonic should sort things out anyway. Perhaps, like a car, PJs should have a service requirement linked to hours used?

    All the best mate - I hope you get everything sorted ;)

    Mark
     
  8. PJTX100

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    The TX100 has not only a lamp timer but a more regular filter timer to remind you to clean this out on a regular basis. Presume this is a common feature?...PJ
     
  9. fallwood

    fallwood
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    I clean the filter every 150hrs, , each time I take the filter out to clean it their is almost no contamination at all so i've no idea where the dust in the pj is coming from. In reply to your question as to why I kept using the pj after I noticed the dust, I had already phoned panasonic to arrange for the pj to be picked up due to the flickering and was not prepared to start taking the machine apart to clean it, im just using it till they get me a loan unit out and take mine away. Heres a picture of what i think is dust, let me know if anyone thinks different. Looks a lot worse than it does in the pictures (how come I look worse in pictures than real life)
     

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  10. fallwood

    fallwood
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    From my perspective it is a matter of fact ,as im sure your opinion is from yours. As you know we can argue till the end of time over which pj (in this price range) is the best and still get nowhere. I suppose what I should have said was, in my opinion I think it has the best picture in this price range, but then that sounds like its up for dispute . I'm slightly amused that you picked the one thing I said was good about the 700 to have a go at.
     
  11. Sigismund

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    :) The point I was trying to make was that if used in an "average" way then the unit should be thoroughly cleaned at least once a year, according to the manual. If you're racking up the hours five times quicker than most, then it follows that the unit probably needs servicing a lot more often to hopefully keep it in tip top shape - cleaning out the air filter every so often probably isn't enough. If because of this it will be the last Panny you'll buy, whilst understandale, you could find yourself in possibly deeper, or just as deep, water! ;) Having said that, from my experience with Sanyo they're very, very good at picking up, servicing and returning the Z3... although I prefer the image from the AE700. Again, from my experience the "Hurricane Blower" that comes with the Z3 isn't particularly good - I suspect its inclusion may have had more to do with problematic first run Z2s, which I believe did suffer dust problems. I don't think you can beat having someone who knows what they're doing cleaning out your PJ :)

    From those shots it looks like dust contamination to me - I've seen something very similar - but that kind of effect always has me thinking "heat damage" to the LCD panels... but that's just my paranoia, I think :rolleyes:

    If you do go for a new PJ, which do you think you'll choose... the HS50? :smashin:

    All the best,

    Mark
     
  12. pez

    pez
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    Im just amazed that Panasonic told me my projector was fine!

    shocking.

    “Service is an integral part of any business. A business that does not provide service is no business at all. Service, therefore, is the duty and obligation of any business person. But, there is nothing more aggravating than service provided only out of a sense of duty. Customers can sense it. Service means satisfying customers, and when we satisfy our customers, we in turn find satisfaction in a job well done.
    Satisfied customers and satisfied employees. This is what constitutes true service.”
    The founder, Konosuke Matsu****a

    here's the other 700 flickering thread, which also links back to the 500 flickering thread.

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173666

    seems to me that some of these things flicker!

    pez
     
  13. fallwood

    fallwood
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    If it was just a matter of opening up the pj and cleaning it , that I could handle. The fact that every bulb in all of my previous pj's has failed to break the 2000 hr mark is a more serious matter, 4 of my previous machines suffered from heat damage at about 1500hrs followed by bulb failure shortly afterwards and the rest from bulb failure between 400-1700 hrs. I cannot see how panasonic can claim such high bulb life hrs when the rest of the machine starts to fail well before the 2500 hr mark. Has anyone managed to get anywhere near 5000hrs on a 300 or 500 with no problems. A machine that will not outlast the warranty when used regularly is a bit poor , I must remember not to actually use any of the panasonic products I buy in the future as this seems to be the only way I will get it to outlast the warranty.
     
  14. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    This is the very reason I responded on your thread - Panasonic state clearly in their Operating Instruction manual that dust accumulation can lead to problems and the unit should be serviced at least once a year. You seem to be using your AE700 for about 8 hours a day, which in my estimation means you should think about having the unit serviced about every 3 months or 400 hours (i.e. a good clean through at the very least). I don't mean to "get on your case", and there may very well be other projectors that would last longer given the treatment you give them :), but I'm really not sure what the problem is here - you don't have the unit serviced during extensive usage, it becomes problematic and Panasonic fix anything that needs fixing under warranty!


    Of course, if Panasonic representatives aren't giving you this advice, and are merely suggesting "everything will be fine" then that's another issue ;)

    Mark
     
  15. fallwood

    fallwood
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    Thats exactly the problem, ive spoke to numerous so called engineers at panasonic who have all stated that my usage regime should not cause any problems apart from the fact that I will use up my bulb life quickly, no mention of servicing or cleaning have ever come up . Dont you think having to have the pj serviced every 400hrs is a bit of a joke , I dont own any other equipment that needs such regular servicing and I own a lot of av/electronic gear. If it needs servicing at hourly intervals it should say so, my car states 9000 miles or 12 months whichever comes first , I would never have bought one if i'd know it needed so much attention (the pj not the car). As you say it states 12 months in the manual, it does not say anything about heavy usage so how are people supposed to know any different. I do appreciate the help and advice you are giving me but I still dont think that the kind of service intervals you are stating are realistic for a domestic use product. Dust aside it still doesnt explain the other consistent problems ive had.
     
  16. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    Mate, you keep missing my point! :D

    If we assume that dust accumulation can indeed lead to the kind of problems you've experienced - and of course that's by no means certain! - then it follows that if you had the unit serviced regularly some/all/none of these problems could possibly have been avoided.

    Again, it does state in the manual that the unit should be serviced at lease once a year - if we assume "average" usage of let's say 2 movies a week @ one service every 400 hours = two years! 4 movies a week = a service every year. That doesn't seem too bad to me ;) If you're using it 8 hours a day, that's a service every six months, and I'd reckon on having one every 3 or 4 months... dust is your enemy :eek:

    Having said that, if it has come from the horses mouth, so to speak, that you should have no concerns at that usage then that, to me, is the real problem - that just seems plain silly, and poor advice, which seems in contradiction with the advice given in the handbook!

    I don't think Sanyo even give a likely bulb life, and I suspect it's shorter than the Panny, but at least you would have the "Hurricane Blower"... having used on though, I cannot imagine being anywhere near as good as a good blast with some compressed air.

    Mark
     
  17. UrbanT

    UrbanT
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    Fallwood, you used the analogy of a car service, which actually highlights Mark's point perfectly.

    If you bought a car, and drove 40,000 miles a year, you would have to have it serviced 4 or 5 times a year. 8 hours a day usage would be considered high for anything but commercial use, and therefore needs more careful maintenance.
     
  18. Sigismund

    Sigismund
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    Unless it was one of those Audis that only need servicing every 100,000 miles. :D

    Man I'm in a picky mood today :devil:
     
  19. theritz

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    I agree with Mark and Chris on the service requirement. In any case I've never thought that a projector is a replacement for a TV or computer monitor. Given that you've managed to kill 7 projectors maybe you'd consider the possibility that the running regime/conditions that you have mightn't be suitable for using a projector.

    Yip - check a post by Calibos, 5000 hrs on an AE300 in a year with no degradation etc.


    Sean G.
     
  20. UrbanT

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    Shut up ;)
     
  21. kballs

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    For those making an endless thread about service intervals:

    My AE700 has flickered a bit from day 1. It goes darker/lighter for a split second then back to normal... does this randomly (every few seconds or minutes) after warming up for about 30 minutes. I've seen it most while in Xbox dashboard or in static HUD/background parts of games.

    His dust buildup over 800+ hours does seem normal for many home environments, though it seems weird that it does it while the filter stays fairly clean... there are other unfiltered points of entry but usually the airflow is going away from the panels (unless you're vacuuming your filter without removing it).
     
  22. fallwood

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    I accept that , but I think its essential to have some indictation in the manual as to when the pj needs a service, I dont think its acceptable that I/we have to assume that 400 hrs is roughly 12 months use and so thats when it should be serviced. I am a stickler for servicing my cars and plant equipment as I know that poor servicing leads to reduced lifespan and a whole host of other problems. The point im making is that after repeated questions to panasonic about extended use I was not once told that the pj would benefit from a service at X amount of hours. If it said in the maunal that the pj must be serviced every 400hrs then I would have had it serviced. If the lack of a service is the main reason for my problems then I would be greatly releived , Is it alright to open the unit whilst still under warranty to clean it myself or would this void the warranty, sending it away to panasonic every 2-3 months would mean they would have the machine for 4 months out of every year (roughly takes a month to get a pj turned round in my experience).
     
  23. exsodius

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    Flicker really sucks!

    A 5th generation AE** series, and it still flickers. I dont understand why. Thomas Edison should have been alive today and seen the problems we have with his bulbs in 2004/2005.
     
  24. calibos

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    5000 hours on my Ae300s' first bulb and am at about 1500hrs on my second bulb. No image degradation that I can see.

    I don't clean my filter as often as I should ie. I usually only remember to do it about every 200-300 hours. I do a full system clean every 1500 hours or thereabouts. By that I mean I open the PJ and take the main pcb off and the fans out and give the whole innards as well as the panels a good de-dusting. It is due and definately needs this full clean about now. My usual dust patch in the bottom right quadrant of the screen is making its presence felt again.

    My winter temps are Temp 1: 100 approx
    Temp 2: 175 approx

    Summer Temps are Temp 1: 90 approx
    Temp 2: 170 approx

    I permanently run Low lamp and High Fan
     
  25. fallwood

    fallwood
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    Glad to hear that you've had such long hrs out of your bulb. checked my temps and they are,

    temp 1 155
    temp 2 170

    are these ok and what do the numbers relate to. tried the pj in full fan mode and normal mode but the temps remain the same. How long did it take you to rack up 5000hrs , is your pj ceiling mounted or shelf mounted.
     
  26. calibos

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    Temp 1 is the temp at the LCD panels and temp 2 is the ambient room temperature measured at the intake fan with the dust filter. The Temp figures are not in Celcius or Fahrenheit for some reason and in fact, the higher the number the lower the temperature.

    I've just rechecked my temps and they are

    Temp1 103
    Temp2 183

    So my ambient room temperature @ 183 atm is lower than yours (despite being a higher number!) while my panel temperature @ 103 is significantly higher then yours @ 155. Thats a huge differance and I wonder is your panel temp probe working properly. Basically your figures are indicating that your panel temps are almost the same as your ambient room temps and I find that hard to believe unless Panasonic have managed to make significant improvements in their ventilation and exhaust systems etc for the Ae700.


    With regard to increasing fan speed. My default fan setting of high usually means a temp 1 reading of typically 7-10 (eg temp 1 of 100 rather than 90-93..higher number indicating lower temperature) higher than if I had the fan on low. Similarily if I put the fan on full from its default of high I will see my temp figure change in front of my eyes with the self check screen on. Going from 100 to 107-110 (again, higher number indicating lower temp at the probe) Of course, whatever about learning to live with the fan noise at the high setting (which I have) I nor anyone else could live with the fan on full. Its like a jet engine!! I think this fan speed setting is intended purely for Bulb cooling when the PJ has been switched off, ie never intend for use while you're actually watching something on the PJ.

    If your temp readings are correct, then I don't think its heat that is killing your bulbs. If your readings are wrong then I would say these false temp readings and you bulb failures are connected somehow
     
  27. fallwood

    fallwood
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    Checked my mates 700 today and his temps read roughly the same as mine, where did you find out the info that says the higher the number the lower the temp , seems a weird way of displaying the temp. My main area of suspicion lies in the mounting of my pj, seems strange that all my machines have been ceiling mounted and all have failed within 6 months, my friend has his shelf mounted and at over 900hrs has no probs at all, read a post in the 700 flicker thread from a guy who had the flicker problem with his pj until he took it down from the ceiling and ran it right side up, is their any proof in this theory. Can someone do a poll on how people mount their machines (ceiling, shelf, coffe table) or has one already been done.
     
  28. Craig Armstrong

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    Hmmm, the Panasonic service guy returned my flickering AE500 back to me, stating that just because the green panel flickered regardless of setting in service mode, the pj still operated within spec. I never mentioned that I had mine ceiling mounted. Perhaps he could not see the flicker on the bench. I never thought of trying the pj on a desk.
     
  29. calibos

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    We kind of figured out that strange temp measuring system on the Ae100 and 200/300.

    ie. When you turned the fan speed from low to high and likewise from high to full, the figures for temp1 went up while temp2 remained unchanged. We knew there were two temp probes because in the self check screen there were two temp figures. We could see one of the temp probes at the dust filter/intake fan and it is assumed that the other temp probe is in the panel area.

    We know that if you speed up the fan it will improve cooling. Temp 2 remaining unchanged meant that that was the ambient temp reading at the dust filter/intake. (ie. extra cooling inside the PJ is not going to effect ambient room temperatures to any great extent, so the temp figure that remains unchanged will be the ambient reading ie. Temp2)
    Temp1 figures changing meant this was the internal temp probe (most likely located around the lcd panels) as enhanced cooling by speeding up fans will get rid of the heat inside the PJ quicker thus lowering the temperature. It seems counter intuitive that the numbers going up would indicate a 'lower' temperature but it was also counter intuitive that speeding up the fans would make the inside of the PJ even hotter, so the only conclusion we could draw was that 'the higher the number, the lower the temperature'. Another clue was that we were pretty sure that temp2 was the ambient temperature (because it didn't change no matter what speed you had the fan at). Its logical to assume that the inside of the PJ will be hotter than the ambient room temperature. So if temp 2 is ambient and the number is higher than the number for temp1, the higher number must mean a lower temperature.

    Pretty strange temperature measuring system of Panasonic I'll agree!

    Seeing as your mates ae700 reads the same as yours, well that rules out a broken temp probe. So either Panasonic have dramatically improved colling or have changed their measuring system.

    Are you sure your temp figures don't change one bit when you change fan settings?
    When I change the fan setting and then go straight into the self check screen, the temp1 numbers change in front of my eyes.
    eg. say I was running in low lamp/low fan with a temp1 of 90. I changed to low lamp/high fan and then went to the self check screen again. I would see the zero changing to a 1, then a few seconds later to 2 and so on. After about 5-10 minutes the temp would level off at about 97-98.

    I cant understand how your numbers don't change at all. You are changing fan speed independently of your bulb setting aren't you. ie not instigating a higher fan speed by putting the bulb on high (brighter bulb and higher fan speed cancel each other out meaning unchanged temp) but leaving the bulb on low and independently putting the fan on high.

    Mines high shelf mounted. ie mounted on a shelf near the ceiling with the PJ resting upside down on the top of the shelf with 4 little rubber spacers lifting the bottom(top cover with the controls on ie silver side down and black plastic underside facing the ceiling) up about 4mm
     
  30. calibos

    calibos
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    You started getting me worried, that we were wrong all along about which temp reading was ambient and which was panel so I did a little experiment.

    I went to my self check screen and my temp1 was 108 and temp2 was 185. PJ has been on about 1 hour. (lowest temps I've ever seen actually! The room does feel quite chilly tbh) Anyway I held a lighter in front of the temp probe at the air intake/dust filter area. On the ae300 at any rate you can actually see the probe through the intake grille. Straight away my temp 2 figure of 185 started going down to 184..183...182....180, thus conclusively indicating that temp2 is the ambient temperature probe at the dust filter/intake and that the lower the number, the higher the temperature and conversely the higher the number the lower the temperature.

    I now have a horrible burning smell in the room, but thats a different story... :D :D :D
     

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