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the secret policeman

Discussion in 'TV Show Forum' started by backtothefuture, Oct 21, 2003.

  1. backtothefuture

    backtothefuture
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    anyone watch this program tonight at 9 on BBC one?

    shocking but brilliant...

    racism in the police force... confirmed what some of us were afraid was true!

    Quality viewing from BBC1 , makes me glad I payed my licence fee :smashin:

    I'm sure similar revelations will be made if a similar undercover expose is made of the US/UK government and so called 'terrorists/terrorist nations' ...
     
  2. Richard46

    Richard46
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    It would be worrying if our taxes were being used to employ the criminals exposed on this programme in any capacity.
    As they are being employed as Policemen its shocking although perhaps not surprising.
    What really worried me was the way the police trainer covertly sanctioned the racist attitudes when the Asian cadet was defered and the statement of the Police Federation representative that they would support Policemen accused of using racist language. Thats why the problem with the police force is still institutional and not just one of a few immature officers. The polices initial response to the making of this programme was to charge Mark Daly with impersonating a police officer I belive.
    I am not anti-police, In my job I have worked with many non-racist policemen over the last thirty five years.
     
  3. Lex

    Lex
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    I only caught the last 15 minutes - gutted - it looked really good. Does anyone know if/when it is going to be repeated at all?
     
  4. sdh500

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    Hi Lex, don't know about a repeat but I've still got this recorded on my Pace Twin so if you want it on a disc just PM me your address.
     
  5. Lex

    Lex
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    That is extremely generous of you mate - pm on way :smashin:
     
  6. sdh500

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    Got your PM, no probs
     
  7. mammoth

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    There will be trouble ahead,
    not about the theme of the programme but about the over and unnecessary use of bad language, mark my words.
     
  8. mij

    mij
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    I saw this and apart form the obvious moron; I thought that most of the comments were no worse than you would hear in any other workplace. I think if you put any group of men into a relaxed atmosphere, and then deliberately steer the conversation towards race, you will end up with similar comments. Some will do it for bravado; some will do it to fit in with the group, and some will do it because they are racist. But I also know that this doesn’t just occur when white men get together, a group of Asians or Blacks will be no different when talking about other races, you will even get this with people from different parts of the UK.

    I think that programmes like this do nothing to help, and thought that it was a total waste of time and money.

    I should add that I am not a racist, and I think that racism is another word for a lack of intelligence, but I do think that the race card is used too much in this country and that the race relations act is being used as a stick to hit us over the head with, and programmes like this just make the stick bigger.

    mij
     
  9. rhoamish

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    mij, I agree completely.

    It seems fashionable to point out how racist the police are, when I believe it's probably true of most large institutions and companies. I worked in the Midlands, and was quite surprised how openly racist a lot of employees were. And there's no talking to them about it: they look at you as if you're mad if you try and argue a different point of view.
     
  10. Sinzer

    Sinzer
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    Racism and intelligence do not correlate, it is dangerous to think that people who are racist are stupid or lesser intelligence. Many intelligent people hold racist views.

    I agree I don't think it is any different from most workplaces, which is a sad state of affairs. However, in time hopefully things will change, it took centuries for women to shed the predjudice of their biological differences and they still have a long way to go. Racism will not die overnight but I think it is getting better very slowly.
     
  11. jelly

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    HIPOCRITES a couple of years ago WHITE farmers in africa were murdered and thrown off their farms. The reason being that the land belong to blacks ,did anyone say anything about that no they didnt. if it had been an asian family being chucked out of there corner shop cos someone wanted a white family in there there would be an uproar Also why is it that the bbc can launch a radio station pureley for black music (is that not racist) also on sky there is a afro carribean channel surely this is got to be racist. Back to the thread if coppers want to be racist theres no way that you can stop themdid you know that in brixton and parts of leicester whites are a minority now in ENGLAND this has surley got to be wrong I think that the sooner that bleeding heart tony blair is ousted from government and the b.n.p are given their chance to show that there not a rasist party and they honestly do have the country at their best intrest. the better for all :lesson: :lesson: Rant over moderator please do not delete this message ive not been racist in any way and the b.n.p are a politically recognised party:hiya: :hiya:
     
  12. rhoamish

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    Actually, yes they did. There were international protests, and blanket media coverage. Zimbabwe is still in the newspapers on an almost daily basis.

    And rightly so...

    Yes you can: it's a criminal offence persecute someone on grounds of race.

    Oh, really? If that's their claim, they're fooling no-one.
     
  13. James45

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    I thought the programmes main coup was to show how they managed to infiltrate the police force and go undetected for so long.
    I don't think the programme succeeded as an insightful investigation into intitutional racism in the police. What evidence did he have to back this up? One utter prat (PC Rob Pulling) who seemed to be a very small, inadequate and insecure man who had found someone (the undercover reporter) who seemed genuinely interested in what he had to say on the subject of race hate. I think he played up to the reporter, lied, made unfounded boasts and general acted up simply to appear a bigger man in the eyes of the undercover reporter.
    While the others made some truly hateful comments on occasion their outlook in general appeared to be little more right wing than that of your average Daily Mail reader. In fact it became apparent that the shows editing could hardly be described as neutral, on a couple of occassions just as it seemed one of the targets was about to say something sensible on the subject of racism the scene was cut. Very poor and obvious.
    The reporter also seemed to conduct most of his 'interviews' after his subjects had been out on the town and were well and truly boozed up.

    Identifying a couple of rotten apples at a police training academy doesn't really amount to much, was anyone here shocked by the programme... I doubt it.

    BTW one of the four policemen suspended as a result of the programme has this morning resigned, what's the betting it's Pulling? Personally I'm glad, someone that stupid would not do anything of benefit as a police officer.
     
  14. wilber

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    It is Pulling who resigned & his ex-cheif constable is going to talk to the Lawrence family to apologise.

    Was I surprised with what I saw - No
    Should this behaviour be in any way condoned - No

    7 officiers in one academy group (plus that tutor who seemed to enjoy the asian student not returning) is too high a number of racists for my liking. I don't think that the police will like what they saw one bit last night and the rumblings that are growing this morning may become significant - I hope that some good comes of it 'cos it was the one of the worst hours of TV I have made myself sit through - not the program quality, but what that reporter discovered.

    Disturbed of Clevedon
     
  15. James45

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    I'm not condoning their behaviour in anyway shape or form, simply saying the programme wasn't up to much and neither were the investigative methods used.
    I would have found a far more balanced, nuetral programme to be more shocking and insightful rather than one so obviously cut to appear shocking. I mean at no point was it explained why the entire class seemed to dislike the Asian recruit, if anything the instructor's tone seemed to indicate he was disliked because of his/her actual performance on the course. Would it be wise to approve of a poor recruit simply because they were Asian? It would seem to me that exactly that kind of polictally correct positive descrimination is the sort of thing that helps breed rascist tendencies.

    I have to say the fact that they went undercover at a training school, rather than an actual police station also gave the programme less 'weight'. He passed his training and had become a 'proper' copper yet in the job itself he found no evidence of racism and reported that on-the-job coppers behaved immpecably.
     
  16. mij

    mij
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    Sinzer said:
    Absolutely correct, and unfortunately a lot of intelligent people are using the label of racist to stop any intelligent debates taking place on this subject.

    mij
     
  17. sdh500

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    You made some valid points James45 but that bit is not quite true. It was, in fact, clearly explained by the reporter that resentment was brewing against the Asian recruit because word had gotten round that he had been accepted for the course much quicker than any of the others and had even received a phone call from the Chief Constable personally encouraging him to join the force. It was also made apparent that he was slacking in his Physical Education training and was often absent. So the fact that the instructor's tone did seem to confirm that his poor performance was the main reason he was back-coursed, was not really a surprise given the aforementioned.

    My point is that that particular aspect of the show was actually quite well balanced.
     
  18. James45

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    Ah my apologies I don't recall seeing that bit. In that case it does suggest that he was disliked more because of his performance than his race.
     
  19. Richard46

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    I think you have contradicted yourself. You say that programme was not balanced but admit that when the programme found policemen behaving correctly it was reported. It appears the programme was balanced enough for you to be able to use it to back up your own argument.
    There is evidence (not from this programme) that the situation can be even worse in police stations than on training courses. Recently a Black man died in a police station. An inquest has pronounced a verdict of unlawful killing, but no one has been charged with murder or manslaughter. That is unbalanced and illogical.
    In fact I dont think Racism is the real problem in the police. Racism is just a symptom of bad management, bad training, inadequte and misguided recruitment practices etc. I am a professional trainer and those trainers I saw last night were so weak and unprofessional they they would not survive in the business out side of the police force.
    Some organisations such as local government and education have been much more successful in tackling institutional racism and they did not do it by the kind of clumsy and self defeating polices e.g. positve action, which is itself institutionally racist. The police are trying to tackle one form of racism with another. They should be rigoursly applying well proved polices such as equal opportunites.
    Similarly Pulling should and could have been identifed at the recruitment stage by a proper selection process. Not as a racist but as an inadequate candidate. He was so inarticulate any decent selection process would have rejected him. Police spokes men today were still talking about sorting out the racist at the recruitment stage. They are never going to manage that if they cannot even spot the obvious educational; communication and emotional limitations of a Pulling.
    In fact while the message is still going out that the police are exempt from the law, see my example above, then recruits are going to continue thinking that racist and unprofessional behaviour is acceptable.
    By the way I have worked over thirty five years with lots of non-racist and excellent police officers, who I know would have been as grieved with what we saw last night as I am.
    Regards Richard
     
  20. Miyazaki

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    What a fool. The Asians and Afro-Carribbeans in this country were INVITED over during the 1950's and 1960's as the British Empire collapsed to fill the many vacancies as Britain pulled herself up from her knees after WWII.

    This stupid reactionary rhetoric is exactly the kind of meaningless rubbish i'd expect of either the BNP or a BNP supporter. So what if people of a certain ethnicity outnumber caucasian people in Leicester? I used to live in leicester for 15 years, and i have many Asian and Black friends.

    Britain is a multi-cultural society and should be celebrated as such. The fact that we have a lot of different races only enriches our own culture. I believe that Tikka Masala is a more popular dish these days than fish and chips.

    The sooner imbeciles like this person are exposed for the simpering racist idiots like they are the better. And as for the BNP being a legitimate party, that is complete rubbish. The only reason they are getting in is because the Conservative voters in certain places feel disenfrancished by their ineptitute and then the BNP come along with their reactionary rubbish and blame everything on either asylum seekers or "foreigners".

    It completely escapes them that many of the asylum seekers that are accepted are professionals trained as doctors or teachers, precisely the sort of people Britain NEEDS right now. They should be welcomed with open arms as they will pay high taxes as they get high wages.
    The sort of people that should be kicked out are the benefit fraudsters and evil trash that are racists.
     
  21. Ed Selley

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    :smashin: One assumes that his cp refers to the contents of his head.
     
  22. James45

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    Not at all, the police placement at the end was treated as a seperate issue by the programme (almost treated as an afterthough) simply because no evidence of racism was to be found. I had no issue with that part of the programme, he couldn't find any problems and reported it as such, fair play there.

    But the training school section was another matter entirely. I found the reporters use of questioning ("You don't like asians do you? What would you do to them, truthfully?) was more like clumsily poking them with a stick until he got the answers he was after. He didn't go in with the intention of observing the actual situation but rather proding and moulding until he got 'evidence' to support his theories. As I said on a number of occassions the editing even cut off a trainee on a couple of occassion just as he was about to discuss UK immigration policy, just as a couple of people on this thread would like to do:nono: . Hardly balanced. Please don't think I'm defending the racism these idiots displayed, it's just I prefer my journalism to be balanced and impartial. I've been a reporter (and now sub editor) on locals for seven years now so I now all about a balanced story.

    Spot on, how this moron was able to enter the training process in the first place is beyond me, I thought while watching the programme that surely some form of psychological interview must take place... but evidently not. A friend of mine is training at Hendon at the moment I will be interested to hear what he made of the experience. His first impression was that there were too many coppers there!:laugh:
     
  23. Richard46

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    Hi James
    Balanced means putting both sides of an issue. As far as the attitudes of these police recruits goes there are not two sides; they are a disgrace to the uniform they wear. They are racists, who were taking money for protecting all when planning assults on specific groups. Mark Daly did not twist their arms to make them confess things they did not believe. They simply revealed their true beliefs and what they would like to do after he gave them the opportunity.
    Even the police today have realised the enormity of what the programme revealed and have stopped trying to attack the methods used to make the programme.
    Regards Richard
     
  24. James45

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    maybe, but I think he selected candidates (certainly in the case of Pulling) that could be manipulated and made to come out with nonscene after a few pints. I don't believe for second Pulling would do half the things he 'boasted' about.

    That said he was a halfwit and doesn't deserve a place in the police force.
     
  25. vonhosen

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    Different burden of proof required in a criminal prosecution. You need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt , rather than on the balance of probabilities. Police officers have the same protection in law as members of the public when it comes to criminal prosecutions.


    Why should you be surprsied to find racist police officers. Isn't the police service supposed to reflect the community it serves. Don't for a minute believe I am condoning racism, but I believe you will find it to some degree everywhere in society & probably LESS in the police than some other groups in society.

    As for the program itself, I only saw a little bit of it & sounded like some leading questions from the investigative journalist. Any investigator worth their salt will shy away from that. But to end ....a few of the so called "officers" I saw were a disgrace, led or not, & should be dealt with severely.
     
  26. Richard46

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    Sorry If my point was not clear to you. I am not saying officers could be convicted on the basis of the evidence presented at an inquest. You are quite right about the different standard of evidence of course. I am saying that an unlawful killing has been identifed and that those present are known. An investigation leading to joint charges would be expected but this has not happened nor according to my information does it appear to be likely. Any conviction would of course have to be based on criminal standards of evidence.
    I would think few are in any doubt that police officers have the same protection in law as anyone else and I did not imply in any way that they did not, nor that they should not have such protection.
    Regards Richard
     
  27. NIGGY

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    I myself am torn on the value of this programme.

    I, like James, wonder what was left on the cutting room floor. It seemed that whenever a recruit looked as if they were about to qualify (or compound) their views they were cut leaving the just the initial racist statement. A fine example of shock TV. OK there's no exuse for what was said but the viewers should have the opportunity to hear the entire paragraph - not just the sentence!!!! The only exception to this was when Pulling was interviewed - I think he made himself quite clear - though some of the techniques used by the reporter did verge on coercion.

    The reason i'm in two minds about the value of the programme is that I'm not sure that I'm happy with what the programme set out to acheive and consequently what it has acheived.

    I think everybody agrees that institutionalised (or any) rasicm should be highlighted so action can be taken but was this done the right way?

    To me it seems that this programme may have caused more trouble than the obvious good that it acheived. In a country with such a rich cultural diversity as ours I can only assume that anybody watching this programme lost an amount of confidence in the police as a result. I know I did and I'm white!!!!

    It seems to me that people of all cultures either have a degree of faith in the police or they don't trust then at all. So consequently those who trusted and tried to convince themselves that the police are impartial are going to think again. And those who have no faith or repect for the police are going to remember this for a long while to come.

    I think that the police in the last few years have done a lot of work to improve their image and practices - voluntarily making themselves more open and accountable and i feel that this 1hr programme, whilst not without merit, has done a lot to turn this good work around.

    Nigel
     
  28. Richard46

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    I would be more hopeful, I think the programme will provide evidence for those good police officers who are working hard to remove the negative aspects of the forces culture. There is a danger that the police force will become to feel even more beseiged than it is already. I recognise that, but openness cannot be censored as soon as it reveals something unpleasant.
    Regards Richard
     
  29. backtothefuture

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    True, while Pulling may not do half the things he boasted of ..ie dragging a *aki under a train, or stabbing them KKK style etc, his ingrained racism and related actions were confirmed towards the end of the program.

    That was the part after he'd spent a couple of days on the beat and met up with Mark Daly and boasted about how he'd pulled over an Asian driver for having no valid tax disc or insurance and fined him £260, slapped 6 points on his licence plus made him and his family walk back home ...while on the same day he pulled over a white woman for exactly the same reasons but let her off with just a warning.
     
  30. NIGGY

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    I don't think that James45 is trying to explain or lessen the degree of Pullings racism - it was overt and inexcusable.

    I think James' point is that the reporter used tactics, such as pretending to himself have racist views, in order to bring out the subjects own extreme comments.

    The recruits shown were obviously fairly unintelligent and Pulling, in particular, appeared to have other emotional problems. Considering this, I felt that that kind of person would be more likely to say things, whilst in private and in the presence of another like-minded individual, that he wouldnt usually. Especially when the like-minded individual was asking the sort of questions that the reporter was.

    IMO if you go into any working or social environment and use the tactics mentioned above you will always find someone who agrees with you and, for me, it lessened the programmes potential impact.

    Nigel
     

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