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The Rock - PAL Problems

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Jenz, Mar 13, 2001.

  1. Jenz

    Jenz
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    Looks like The Rock Video Processor has hit some production problems on dealing with PAL Sources delaying it's likely introduction into the homes of European PAL Users.

    Has anyone here actually ordered one? It would be interesting to know what kit you plan on using it with.

    Regards Neil.

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  2. GaryG

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    Neil

    Does ordering one and cancelling your order count?

    Have you dismissed the Iscan Pro now?

    Regards
    Gary

     
  3. Jenz

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    Gary,

    Yes it does count. Why did you cancel. How much did you expect it to cost shipped to you inclusive?

    Still investigating the ISCAN Pro, having trouble getting one, wanted a trial run before I purchase.

    Neil.

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  4. GaryG

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    Neil

    Here's a few reasons in no particular order of preferance:

    A number of increases in the cost

    The software is developed by at least one person who wrote dTV, I have not had much luck with dTV.

    The hype: 'keep the faith, guys'

    Broken promises (ship dates, price, it was originally supposed to be a competitor to the Quadscan)

    Support and shipping costs if the first units need to go back when a fault is discovered, 'a la video card with PAL'

    It's a bit OTT for a 7" gun projector. A 9" gun would be a better partner. (Some people may argue that it's deinterlacing performance would still be an advantage on a 7", it's a lot of money to find out, money better spent on a more capable projector in my case).

    Sentiment. I get the impression from the folk on the AVS forum that Phil is viewed in the same manner as second hand car salesman.

    Secondhand value. It's strength is that it's built aroung standard PC technology. Unfortunately that's also it's weakness, 6 months from now it's technology will be superceded. Either the price will tumble or the Rock II will be built around more powerful hardware.

    Having said all of that, I reserve the right to change my mind and go and buy one!

    Regards
    Gary
     
  5. Jenz

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    So Gary did you buy anything instead?
     
  6. JohnAd

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    Gary

    Yes, Mark, I'm the other main developer of dTV.

    What problems have you had with dTV?

    Neil

    Have you sorted out all the dTV issues you have raised on AVS or are you still having problems?

    John


    [This message has been edited by JohnAd (edited 14-03-2001).]
     
  7. Boris Blank

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    Jenz,
    There is a new kid on the block! Looks like a new scaler/deinterlacer is about to become available which may very well be on a par with the big boys but at a much lower cost. Its the IMAXSCAN Plus and will cost less than $1000 - see http://www.imaxscan.com/product.htm for full details (note there are 2 versions the Imaxscan and the Imaxscan Plus - click on the Imaxscan Plus button at the top of the page for details of the Plus).

    Seems to provide all the facilaties of the Faroudja etc but at a much lower cost. More info at the AVS forum where it was discussed lately. Could be the answer to all our (projector) dreams if it lives up to its specs!
    Regards,
    Paul

    [This message has been edited by PaulB (edited 14-03-2001).]
     
  8. JohnAd

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    Paul

    I thought the $1000 price tag was pure speculation. I'd wait and see what it hits the streets at before getting too excited.

    If that price turns out to be correct it looks like a great value product if the fixed refresh rate doesn't bother you.

    John
     
  9. GaryG

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    Hi John

    When Phil mentioned in one of his posts 'the other enigineer lives in PAL land...' I wondered if it was you. I believe at the time I tried dTV (before Christmas) you posted some replies to my son's queries about the problems I was having. I can't remember the specifics, so I'll boot it up over the weekend and have a play.

    You realise now that you have revealed your involvement in said processor you will most likely get bombarded with questions relating to it's performance etc. Let me be the first to ask you what I would think a lot of people would like to know. Would you consider developing a commercial PC deinterlacing/scaling software package? dTV is a great idea, but I would prefer to buy a 'Pukka Gen' package. I realise the market for this type of thing is probably small but, I'd be prepared to pay several hundred pounds to get a good quality package that can rival the fixed hardware based scalers.

    Neil

    This is getting too long so I'll keep it short. I bought a Quadscan Pro. However, I'm debating selling it to buy the cheaper Iscan Pro and use the difference to put towards a better DVD player.

    Regards
    Gary
     
  10. Boris Blank

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    John,
    Yes, quite correct - the rumoured price is $1000. Lets hope its true!

    Fixed refresh rate - would this be a problem (I'm not up on this sort of thing)?

    Regards,
    Paul
    Edited twice for stupidity!

    [This message has been edited by PaulB (edited 14-03-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by PaulB (edited 14-03-2001).]
     
  11. JohnAd

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    Gary

    Sorry for any confusion but I did not reveal myself as a Rock developer, I was just trying to introduce myself as a dTV developer.

    If you are going to try it at the weekend be sure to get the latest version 2.1.2 There have been a lot of improvements since xmas as I spent a lot of time developing it in jan/feb.

    On the commercial package question, I have thought about it a lot. dTV started life just as something to do when I was bored at work, I never really thought it would ever reach the quality it does now. I was hoping that I would avoid having to buy a scaler as I was planning to use a HCPC for DVD anyway.

    But it has taken off and improved massively since then but has done so in a true "open-source" fashion in that there have been several people who have contributed code.

    I did over to talk to someone in the states to talk about a commerial version but a clean non GPL rewrite would take too long to be sensible.

    The logical next step is to try and deinterlace MPEG2 data totally in the digital domain. This will require a lot of time and for DVD/DSS will be impossible to do in a open source way. I'm thinking about ways of licencing the code that is copyright the dTV team. So the short answer is yes I've thought about it but don't hold your breath.


    Paul

    What I meant on the fixed refresh rate is that it looks like this unit will output at 50Hz PAL and 60Hz NTSC. Films tend to look much better at 72Hz NTSC and 75Hz PAL. The 3:2 pulldown used on US films is pretty annoying to UK eyes that have grown used to smooth motion.


    [This message has been edited by JohnAd (edited 14-03-2001).]
     
  12. Jenz

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    John,

    No I did not get resolution from AVSForum. It seems that PAL leaves them somewhat stuck.

    Basically it works fine on Dreamcast and Playstation 2 via S-Video.

    VHS exhibits a weird problem. When playing a VHS source via Composite what appears to happen is the frames get stuff. The only way to describe this is to say that if you have an image on screen (which we will call image 1) and then another image (image 2) is shown then instead of image 3 you get a judder effect of image 1 and 2 combined before image 3 or 4 appears.

    I have tried:
    1) Switching off Automatic Pulldown Detection
    2) Explicitly specifying 2:2 on Odd or 2:2 on Even
    3) Reducing Pixel Width down to all below 720.
    4) Combinations of all above.
    5) Reducing overscan to 0
    6) Editing the .INI to change Do_Accurate_Flips, Hurry_When_late and combinations of these to no avail.

    When I use Pinnacles own software it the picture is fine and does not exhibit these issues but of course quality is not as good.

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  13. JohnAd

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    Neil

    Ok, it sounds like the bt chip is not syncing properly to the input signal. Is this on tapes recorded with the same VCR or on prerecorded tapes?

    Also to try and help me investigate it further could you switch logging on by setting

    [Files]
    DebugLogEnabled=1

    in the dtv.ini file then running up dTV, play the tape for a few stutters close dtv and send me the dtv.txt file (johnadcock@hotmail.com)

    John

    p.s. remember to switch logging off afterwards or you'll get a hd full of nonsense [​IMG]

    [This message has been edited by JohnAd (edited 14-03-2001).]
     
  14. Jenz

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    Prerecorded Tapes. I will run a log.
     
  15. Boris Blank

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    John,
    I understand - hadn't noticed (or really appreciated) that. Perhaps it will be something that will be addressed prior to its release!?
    Thanks
    Paul
     
  16. Jenz

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    The Rock PAL Component Issues are now fixed apparently.
     
  17. Jenz

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    In fact the second batch has nearly all the Bugs ironed out:

    The second production run will have all the mechanical improvements that are needed to make the ROCK a top notch best of the best contender:

    So I bought one to compare against my HTPC [​IMG]

    I can see the emails tomorrow now from HC Dude wanting to borrow it, Gordon wanting it for the Event, and my Wife wanting it to put a nice picture of the Kids on...
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Jenz..

    You read my mind. Although was going to try for the man himself!

    Gordon

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  19. Jenz

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    Gordon,

    Perhaps you should should just come down one weekend? I have room [​IMG]

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  20. GaryG

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    Neil

    I had to double check your post that the signature block didn't say 'Keep the faith guys'!


    Regards
    Gary

    P.S.

    I'm doing the 'chicken dance' and I'm not even a competitor, can't wait to see what you think.
    [This message has been edited by GaryG (edited 23-03-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by GaryG (edited 23-03-2001).]
     
  21. Jenz

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    Gary,

    If it doesn't match/exceed my HTPC I shall be doing the Chicken Dance straight down to the Bargain Forum and selling it!
     
  22. Rob

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    Neil,

    I'm glad somebody over here is trying out this super processor. Everybody is waiting eagerly for your findings. Guess we will have to "keep the faith" a bit longer. Interesting it was described as "Poo" on the AVS forum, Poo apparently is good (!).

    Cheers Rob.
     

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