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The rise of socialism

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Toko Black

In Memoriam
It's the end of the world! The Conservative Government have gone all socialist left wing loony !

Renationalising offender supervision - how do supporters of Government/Conservative party/Privatisation and/or against nationalisation feel about it ?
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
It's the end of the world! The Conservative Government have gone all socialist left wing loony !

Renationalising offender supervision - how do supporters of Government/Conservative party/Privatisation and/or against nationalisation feel about it ?
Don't know what you are drinking at this hour, what I'm seeing is contract management and failings in those contracts being dealt with.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
Don't know what you are drinking at this hour, what I'm seeing is contract management and failings in those contracts being dealt with.
Okay, so anyone that claims wanting to renationalise aspects of the countries infrastructure is socialist and therefore bad has been drinking something suspect.

For example anyone that just wants to focus more on 'contract management' where they see failings in those contracts needing to be dealt with for example with trains etc. is merely a difference in opinion/evaluation of failings and how to manage those contracts.

Good to know.
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
Okay, so anyone that claims wanting to renationalise aspects of the countries infrastructure is socialist and therefore bad has been drinking something suspect.

For example anyone that just wants to focus more on 'contract management' where they see failings in those contracts needing to be dealt with for example with trains etc. is merely a difference in opinion/evaluation of failings and how to manage those contracts.

Good to know.
Perhaps you should read the whole news story before commenting. Private company participation is not excluded in the future.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
Perhaps you should read the whole news story before commenting. Private company participation is not excluded in the future.
ah, I get it, you can renationalise anything but if you don't proclude the possibility of private envovlement at some point in the future then it doesn't count as being bad(and/or socialist)
 

Bl4ckGryph0n

Distinguished Member
ah, I get it, you can renationalise anything but if you don't proclude the possibility of private envovlement at some point in the future then it doesn't count as being bad(and/or socialist)
I think you are wilfully missing the point. I’ll leave you to it.
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
Okay, so anyone that claims wanting to renationalise aspects of the countries infrastructure is socialist and therefore bad has been drinking something suspect.

For example anyone that just wants to focus more on 'contract management' where they see failings in those contracts needing to be dealt with for example with trains etc. is merely a difference in opinion/evaluation of failings and how to manage those contracts.

Good to know.
You take a well reasoned post and try to turn it into a rant so you can rant about it.
Not impressed.
 

Toko Black

In Memoriam
You take a well reasoned post and try to turn it into a rant so you can rant about it.
Not impressed.
Rant ? I'm not ranting, I'm merely pointing out that renationalisation was being passed off as socialist and bad from the very first post on this thread, yet the Government is currently looking to renationalise offender monitoring because it privatisation went disasterously wrong and needs sorting out.

i.e renationalisation can be a good thing and should not automatically be labelled as prejorative 'socialism'.

If Blackgryphon had not responded, and in particular not started out with an insult infering I was 'drinking something' (as he knows he can't get away with cheap shots about medication or mental illness)... then maybe my tone would have been different.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Regarding nationalisation, Labour wants to take over the National Grid. Conservatives say it will cost £100 billion. Elsewhere I've seen £40 billion, I haven't seen anything from Labour as to exactly how it will happen.

Labour unveils National Grid takeover plan

However, Dan Neidle, a partner at law firm Clifford Chance, told the BBC that Labour's nationalisation plans could contravene international law, because of suggestions that it would not necessarily pay stock market value to buy back the assets.

He said that in every UK privatisation so far, the state paid market value, so it was not up to Labour to decide what was a fair price.

"That's not what the UK precedent is and that's not what international law says," he says.

"The courts have never said that's acceptable," he added. With the rare exception of Venezuela, "you have to look quite hard for governments that have done that".

If the UK did this, it might struggle to raise money in the bond market, he suggested.

The Conservative's vice-chairman for policy, Chris Philp, said Labour's "ideological plan for the state to seize these companies would cost an eye-watering £100bn and saddle taxpayers with their debts".

 

krish

Distinguished Member
He said that in every UK privatisation so far, the state paid market value, so it was not up to Labour to decide what was a fair price.
Slip of the tongue/finger ... shouldn't that be nationalisation?
 

Over by there

Well-known Member
I haven't seen anything from Labour as to exactly how it will happen.
I seem to remember Corbyn or Mcdonnel shuffling through a scenario where the payback is taking it under control, then getting the savings from dropping the bomb (not literally) and it will all run a lot better.

Unfortunately the press are tied up with this other little issue and are not pressing it home.

Basically I read it as they will fubar the system and leave for the next government to clean up. As Labour are good at doing.
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member

Over by there

Well-known Member
Dare I suggest Labour probably went in with the intention of scuppering.
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
By all means.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Last throw of the dice for the hard left?


For Jeremy Corbyn, the 2019 general election is the last great battle between capital and workers, a crucial showdown in the class war written about by Marx. Once again, he’s right: this is the last chance Britain will have for a very long time – perhaps for ever – of electing a radical Marxist government. If Labour lose, Corbyn and McDonnell will go. Len McCluskey of the Unite union is due to retire soon. The heart of the Corbyn project will have been torn out, replaced in due course, perhaps, by a milder, less radical, more moderate leadership.
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
Remind me, which party brought the UK into the Iraq war?
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Remind me, which party brought the UK into the Iraq war?
All of them (except the Lib Dems) as there was wide cross party support for this.
Lib Dem 100% against
Only 2 Conservatives votes against vs 146 who voted for it; or 1.35% against
84 Labour voted against vs 254 for it; or 24.85% against.
BTW Corbyn voted against....

iraq-vote.jpg
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
Thanks Doug.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Still time to get tickets.

1574761512474.png
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Still time to get tickets.

View attachment 1224615
Not unless you've got a time machine...
December 5th this year is on a Thursday, not a Saturday...
The manifesto was published in 1848 so the 150th anniversary would place that event in 1998.
And 5th December 1998 does indeed fall on a Saturday.

Clutching at straws still I see.
 
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Sonic67

Distinguished Member

EarthRod

Distinguished Member
Take that with a pinch of salt.

For example statements like "Among the [communist] speakers..." indicate the 'article' is not to be taken seriously.

However IMO Jeremy is hard left.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
even if there were such a meeting , i could attend it myself as an interested party.Would that make me a communist ? Who is Attila the stockbroker,George Soros?He holds a hedge fund.For the record Jeremy Corbyn identifies himself as a Democratic Socialist that is to the left of the Labour party , and not a Communist ( a typical slur from the right wing media of which the Times belongs to).
As a Brexiteer himself he believes he can offer the British people a better alternative to the Johnson version which is designed to appeal chiefly to disaster capitalists, ie chums in the City square mile.As a Democrat he believes alternative choice should be offered in tandem with Remain in a second referendum.
EU nationals are welcome, free public transport would be a good idea sometime in the future ( I find my bus pass very useful) and universal credit system that actually works and delivers to people in need of it is also welcome. Far better that than people dying or being forced to live on the streets
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
For the record Jeremy Corbyn identifies himself as a Democratic Socialist that is to the left of the Labour party , and not a Communist ( a typical slur from the right wing media of which the Times belongs to).
Hi and welcome to the forums.


Challenged by Andrew Marr on whether he was a Marxist, John McDonnell cautiously replied: "I believe there's a lot to learn from reading [Das] Kapital".

There is no doubt that McDonnell is the most left-wing shadow chancellor in history. As I reported last year, as recently as 2006, he named "Marx, Lenin and Trotsky" as his "most significant" intellectual influences (Jeremy Corbyn has modestly stated that he has "not read as much of Marx as I should have done").
 

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