Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Ilkka R, Sep 27, 2005.
Results have been taken temporarily offline.
Many thanks for taking the time out to do this. Very interesting reading, and I will come back to it again a few times; it is the kind of thing that fills my head to bursting point if taken in one go
Looks like there is no good reason NOT to tune the PB12-Ultra to 16Hz; seems to yeild better group delay down low with very little impact on the SPL. Am I reading this right or missing something obvious? Please advise, as I may dig out that piece of foam that came with my sub
It's a big one, I admit.
You aren't missing anything. In fact I tuned my dual Ultras to 16 Hz after the test, and I couldn't be happier.
Great stuff Ilkka. Like many others I have been following your thread over at AVS awaiting the English translation with interest and the results are certainly worth the wait.
You have tested subs with a range of prices and sizes and whilst I always let my ears be the judge I am pleased that the results of the 20-39 PC plus have confirmed what my ears have long told me.
No doubt different people would like to see a whole variety of different subs tested but as we pay much higher prices for our sub bass pleasures here in UK than the Americans do, I wouldn't mind seeing the subs that stand out for value - the SVS PB-10 and the BK Monolith tested side by side as whilst they both look similar and are similarily priced it's what goes on under the skin that's important.
Very well put together , the little bk as a good response in room one ,what a difference a room makes.
Do you plan to test other subwoofers in the future?
Nice work Ikka and some interesting reading the BK's do manage some good results.
Congratulations on your excellent work and superb presentation.
Would those very long cables (a necessity to run the tests out of doors) have any effect on your results?
I haven't tried listening to any of my subwoofers out of doors...is there much of a subjective difference to listening "normally" indoors?
Agreed, an awsome post... I haven't had my coffee yet so it is all gibberish to me at the moment (and will probably remain that way!).
I have no idea what Gary was talking about but I think I might dust off the old foam bung myself
Always nice to have some science to reasure you after a purchase
Of course I was worried too, but I tested it before the test and I found out that those 2x 40 m RCA-cables didn't have any effect at all. The level of the signal and the frequency response (10 Hz - 20 kHz) was identical with 1 meter cables.
Since I was the one playing with the computer, I was always more than 30 meters away from the subs when they were playing the tunes. And we didn't have time to "listen" to them (if you are meaning music etc.). I can say that it needed over 90 dB before I even started to hear them being so far away. It is also much easier to hear the rattles and noises from the subwoofers, since the room isn't making/masking any noises.
Maybe next time we'll have time to play some music and movies, but that would require almost a full AV-system (AV-receiver, mains), so I don't think that's doable. Listening to only the subs with a ~80 Hz crossover isn't going to tell us much.
Didn't you read the summary Bob?
Yes, more tests are coming, but only after the winter.
The Monolith appeared to have a flat FR over a wide range, but the max SPL @ < 10% THD shows it was suffering a bit under high SPL's over its range. Considering it's price, it should sell well based on the results. Although listening and trusting one's own ears is ideal, sometimes you have to trust to others opinions and just ass important, objective testslike this. Well done!! I'm impressed with your dedication to the pursuit of the truth, well, your version of it!!
Yes they did. Add 6 dB to the Monolith numbers (duals) and you got a very good performer on your hands. And it stays still under 1500 EUR.
I'm not sure what you are meaning? If you look at the numbers, you can see that the Monolith was for example only a maximum of 2-3 dB behind the SVS 20-39PC+ 20 Hz (dB12.2) at all frequencies. Not a bad performer, I think?
Only the THD numbers around 30 - 50 Hz range were quite big already at low levels. That isn't a good thing, since especially on movies there is a lot of material in that range.
I think that trusting on subjective opinions is always harder and more difficult than trusting on objective. But again you can't tell the whole truth by just looking at the numbers.
I'm getting a one PB10 after a month. I'm hoping that the winter isn't on yet, so that I can test it immediately.
But of course PB12-ISD would a better match from SVS, since it also has a 12" woofer and a 4" port. PB10 is using only a 10" and 3", so it isn't a totally fair mach. PB12-ISD retails around 800-850 EUR (when they still were available at here) vs Monolith 740 EUR. But yes if only considering the price, the PB10 retails around 730 EUR (from L-Sound), so it would be perfect match against the BK Monolith.
Not a bad performer I agree. I was just looking at the relative max spl @ 20Hz between the Monolith and the Ultra. (not a fair comparison to be honest, different price range). At 20 Hz < 10% the BK was 6 db behind the SVS. It just supports the opinions expressed here and elsewhere that the SVS subs go both low and clean.
That is true. But it isn't a fair match, since the Ultra retails at around 1600 EUR (when they were still available at here). If you want the most "bang for the /£", get the PB12-Plus/2 for about 1600 EUR from L-Sound. It will easily beat all of these when using its native 25 Hz tune (25 Hz and upwards).
Well done Ilkka R I can well imagine the time and effort that went into producing the results. I think we have a rich source for discussion for some time to come.
Congratulations again on your superb reviews and the excellent presentation.
Thanks. Great work!
I think the 3d graphs are very illustrative of each subs characteristics. Impressed by the accuracy of the SVS' tuning ports. Love the picture of the little BK next to the big tube SVS on your site.
Really great test!
Now it would be interesting to see how the "little midget" SVS PC+ 25-31 would measure in its different tunes as apparently it's supposed to be better at outputting higher SPL than the 20-39 at higher frequencies.
Great work, though!
No ,i had a quick look through over breakfast.
There is really a lot to digest in one sitting so I have come back a few times to re-read the test results.
I very much doubt whether many people will have the necessary technical expertise to interprete the results correctly and I make no claims to be technically minded but I am wondering just how much benefit I would get by upgrading my PC 20-39 PC Plus to the PB-12 Ultra as according to my reading of the stats it isn't that much better.
My cylinder is still in stock tune and I am wondering whether my most cost effective upgrade might be to search out the port bung and re-tune it to 16Hz
Subwoofers are a bit like women, impossible to understand completely but as long as the bumps (on the graphs) are in the right places you should be ok.
Ilkka, congratulations on producing a fantastic comprehensive set of test results. I wonder what the manufacturers think of them! They definately reveal how faithfully each unit can produce the original sound.
I'm looking forward very much to seeing your PB10 measurements, which hopefully won't reveal anything too bad!
The difference in max SPL isn't that big, as you can see. Ultra is a bit stronger at the lower end especially when tuned to 16 Hz. But the big difference is in THD levels. Even the newer dB12.2 will beat the older dB12.1 easily, not to mention the Ultra. GD, spectral decay are very much alike, so from there you can't find an audiable difference.
I was measuring/tuning a DIY Tumult/BFD combo for my friend last night, so unfortunately the comments for each sub are still unwritten, but I'll promise to post them tonight.
Yes want an simple answer? Yes. But the newer dB12.2 or the Ultra wouldn't hurt you either.
Thank you. I really appreaciate it.
Me too. But before the PB10 I will measure the Axiom EP-600. It should be fun too.
Hi Ilkka just wondering if you produced Monolith in-room results as per the BK XLS200 or have the data in tabular form.
Unfortunately the Monolith went to his new owner before I got the chance to measure it indoors.
But you can see the in-room response from the GP frequency response (or at least estimate it).
In as much as you can take from figures, the 20-39 and PB12 clearly "work" very well. I thought particularly the latter @ 16hz.
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