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The reality of line doubling/scaling/htpc..etc.

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by charles, Mar 4, 2001.

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  1. charles

    charles
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    Iv`e read a lot of posts lately about the benefits of a h.t.p.c. over progressive scan,scaling over this blah...blah...blah..
    The reality is,whatever technique you use,you are limited by the resolution of the format-500 lines approx with dvd.
    You cannot get 2 pints out of a pint pot-the same as you can`t make 500 lines look like true high definition-whatever you do..
    All you can achieve is a smoother image-sometimes at the expense of fine detail.
    I have tried all setups,and if you are going to be pernickety,the ultimate picture quality depends on numerous factors-the quality of the projector,line doubler,source,cables used etc..etc..
    But..all things being equal,there is no significant difference between progressive scanning and line doubling(in essence the same thing)and scaling or/and h.t.p.c.(which again,is one and the same thing..).

    The main difference is that a super duper p.c.setup to achieve line doubling could cost you a grand.or..a progressive scanning dvd-500-700 pounds...this cost you would need to add to your projector cost(second hand barco or electrohome)..

    Or you save yourself the grief and buy a projector with built in line doubler(..such as the Ellie)..and any dvd player you like..

    I would argue that their is a slight loss of contrast by feeding your projector with a h.t.p.c.-and it is an untidy and costly set-up...i would also argue that the progressive scan outputs on dvd players(..and in fact the internal process)are bog standard average at best..

    So,a good scaler would be my money no option choice-but again,i must add that the improvement in picture quality is so marginal as to make this route a costly excercise.

    ..As i say,ultimately you are limited in the picture you achieve by the dvd format itself.

    You could upscale to 1024 x 1280-or,if possible.2048 x 2560(one day)-it aint gonna give you any more picture info!!!

     
  2. Mr.D

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    Explain the loss in the contrast range please.

    1024x768 is optimal for anamorphic dvd material. Any larger and the image requires unnecessary scaling. Any smaller and the image is decimated. (800x600 is adequate for 4:3 material)The correct display of 720x576 for 4x3 or 1024x576 for anamorphic material being the aim. probably chop a little off the x in either case as I'm talking non-square pixels.

    You are correct in saying that the 500 or so lines on dvd is as good as it gets but if you want to display the image at a size greater than a 32" TV it requires some treatment for realistic viewability. (your trying to hide the original image structure: the image is still not going to resolve any more detail though: even the best rescaled deinterlaced video looks [very] soft in comparrison to film projected the same size but of course we have to deal with whats possible rather than what we ideally want)

    Correct deinterlacing and prog scanning output makes a big difference. I'm sure someone else will remark on this but I'm thinking the best route for this is a PC dvd-rom drive as its in a position to get the most useful information off the dvd to restore the original non-interlaced frame structure (the flags on the disc). Don't the affordable stand alone doublers / deinterlacers / progscan dvd players just make a guess at the field relationship?

    Displaying in multiples of 24fps or 25fps negates the need for motion interpolated or averaged frames?

    Disparate/consecutive field video is a different matter though. (every field different)

    Also I could be wrong on this but doesn't the ability to remap the intensity scale to 32bit colour (or higher than 8-bit anyway) ensure less possibility for visible rounding errors? ie: posterisation.


     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Well, line doubling is only useful on certain types of CRT projectors. Go to the AKB line thread to see why.

    So the information is on the shiny disc. You are limited by this completely as Charles says. Of course, my findings are that most projectors and video processors aren't that great at displaying the information they are given without inducing some sort of distortion.

    There are other video processors, like the Terranex Xantus which create information that it feels should be present. This isn't necessarily accurate but by all accounts it does seem to create a more pleasing image!

    Now, I've seen the difference in picture quality between two line doublers and between two scalers on different projection devices and I can say that I have seen a difference, an obvious difference.

    Mr D
    I'm sure Richard A or Ludae will answer this better. PC DVD solutions and prog scanning DVD players that look at the flags on the discs may not always produce the best results. This is because the flags are often wrong or just missing. De-interlacers like the Vigatec which use the Sil chip everyone goes on about look at 4 frames and then decide on the best form of de-interlacing. This is a much more consistent way to decide the right process.

    I'd guess that if the PC DVD has chosen the right de-interlacing algorithm it may give a better picture than the external scaler option, but that the external scaler will get it right more often.

    Richard, Ludae, comments?

    Gordon

    Gordon

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    [This message has been edited by Gordon, StereoStereo (edited 04-03-2001).]
     
  4. Jenz

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    Quite interesting comments Charles.

    Considering that my HTPC blows away the picture quality from a Pioneer 737 on my setup I tend to disagree with your comments. Though quite frankly I'm not sure what you're arguing as your note seems to be all over the place.

    I can only assume that the scaled image from the HTPC does not lose anything whereas there is digital to analog conversion from a Prog Player.

    A HTPC costs <£500 not a Grand and therefore is better value. Doing this route instead of a scaler is IMO a much better affair for the cost concious. I have no contrast problems at all on my setup. A HTPC correctly configured produces a perfect picture. Useability is the main issue.

    A 2nd Hand Projector from say M2N or Gordon coupled with a HTPC is going to really buzz for a price < £3k (dependent on Projector). In addition the use of dTV allows deinterlaced and scaled TV, VCR, Dreamcast and Playstation 2 thru the same box. You'd need to add another £750 for an ISCAN Pro to achieve that.

    Regards Neil.

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    [This message has been edited by Jenz (edited 05-03-2001).]
     
  5. RichardA

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    Ok, let's try and get some sensible persepective here.
    Firstly let me say I agree with some of what Charles has to say, but equally some of it is so incorrect it's laughable.

    To Start, it is true that no video scaling technique (not even the Terranex) can create resolution that wasn't there in the source, all they can do is create information to fill in gaps between exisiting pixels, lines and frames that smooth the transitions. The difference is how well that is done and how appropriate it is for the display device in use.

    It is complete folly to say that the Ellies' (Barco)line doubler is as good as a de-interlacer such as the IScan Pro. The differences are noticable within seconds on any movie material. And yes I have done exactly that test with 'non-video' people picking the differences in a blind test.

    The larger the display device (screen size, CRT size or LCD/DLP resolution) the more important the scaling quality used.

    On a low end display (e.g. <30" TV set)no scaling is needed

    Up to about 50" direct view, or a 7" CRT a line doubler or de-interlacer is needed - and the difference between the two WILL be noticable.

    Beyond that a scaler or HCPC is an absolute must to maintain a smooth, scanline-free display. The bigger the device the more obvious the difference - I use a Barco 1209 and anything below 800x600 is simply unwatchable - the optimum is 1152x864, and going beyond that is largely redundant.

    A good HCPC should offer similar performance to a good scaler (e.g. Faroudja 3000 or Snell & Wilcox Interpolator Gold) BUT I would maintain that there will still be an advantage to the stand alone scaler in pure moving image quality - there is a lot more to getting a good image than just scaling.

    I don't think anyone who can't see the difference between a line doubler and a de-interlacer can really speak authorativley on image quality.

    On some of the other points -
    A PC based DVD or built-in de-interlacer (such as Denon 2800) is not the holy grail - as Gordon pointed out, the flags on the disk are often incorrectly set. As perhaps a big clue - the Denon 2800 data sheet mentions exactly this point and says it uses the DVDO chip to determine field relationships, overriding the flags!

    There is a significant difference in field sequence detection (i.e. 3:2 or 2:2 detction) between chipsets and devices - to the point where both Faroudja and ourselves publicly state that we would prefer to get Interlaced sources and do the detection ourselves - in spite of any potential losses (having said that we, of course offer lossless digital links between Meridian 800 and Proceed PMDT DVD players to eliminate even this loss)

    On the colour depth issue (number of bits per colour)I have seen this argued on AVS Forum and others that >10bits per colour is needed to avoid contouring on a HCPC - while this may be true for PC based machines, it certainly isn't true for a piece of real video equipment. It is certainly true that rounding down the number of bits can cause a problem, and this is possibly where some of the problems lie - PCs do not work in the same colour space as video - they are two very different beasts and have to be treated as such - the PC components need to be severely overspecced compared to a video product to achieve the same results!

    I'll admit that I have not had the opportunity to do a shoot out between a real HCPC and Interpolator Gold - though I'm working on it!

    PCs have been nibbling at the edge of broadcast video for a long time now, and are certainly making inroads, mainly into off-line processing (i.e. not real time)but properly designed hardware is still necessary for proper operation.

    Oh and Charles - upscale to 2Kx2K - it's done every day for transfer of video to film! you would be amazed at how many hollywood movies had elements derived from DV camcorders and not just Blair Witch Project!.

    I hope this adds to the debate!

    Richard Ansell
    Product Manager - Interpolator Gold
    Snell & Wilcox


     
  6. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Charles, I know you're an avid fan of the Ellie, but I think you're doing it more harm than good, now, since your pro-Ellie posts are so full of inaccuracies that you bring all sorts of folk out to correct you and reiterate the limits of the machine.
    Which is a pity because the Ellie is such a good projector.
     
  7. Jagular

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    I don’t want to take on you big boys for God’s sake. I know, and I’m sure Charles does, that the equipment Richard is talking about is leagues above what I thought was the general context of this thread. I don’t think there is any doubt in people’s minds that there is any threat to Snell & Wilcox, particularly when the test equipment used to evaluate the Ellie was by the very same -beyond reproach- Snell & Wilcox.
    I would dare to say; your reply is aimed at budgets much larger than the average HCCO reader here, and CRT at that.
    I am interested in what market ‘Interpolator Gold’ is aimed at, for the sake of myself and a good few others on this forum. I don’t mean to sound as though I disagree with what you are saying, I just think that perhaps Spectre has come down a little harsh on Charles. Charles loves his Ellie as I do mine.
    This is a sharp learning curve for a good deal of people, myself included.

    Rob.
     
  8. charles

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    Well here goes spectre,dying for an opportunity to have a dig...hahahaha..

    Anyway,to answer all,i still maintain that the differences to be had from the various methods of doubling/scaling etc..are only apparent if you spend big bucks-and the crux of my point being that these methods/differences are not so crucial with the limitations of the dvd resolution...yes,there may be large differences apparent when an high def format is available-and using a snell over an i-scan may show huge improvements.

    I think the ellie is a good compromise for quality at a sensible cost-and a better option/tidier/easier to use than a secondhand barco and a 500 quid p.c.(which is precisely the set-up i had before i bought the ellie!!)....but of course its picture is not as good as anything out there-iv`e never said that-but its a good compromise-thats all..
    As far as my being proud of a product doing it harm-ive never heard anything so ridiculous!!..i brought in the ellie to give a comparison against the other options-and detailed why the other options for me were a no-go....i also said if money was no option i would go for a scaler-i dont think thats being overly biased to the ellie..

    I would love to find someone who could do a shootout of the various methods of doubling etc..and lets see the real differences-i know there wont be much....but unfortunately this game is becoming a bit like wine tasting...people earn a living from pointing out imperceptible differences to laymen who think they all taste pretty much the same!!!(until of course,the difference is pointed out..)
     
  9. lmccauley

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    Wow! I love this forum!

    I don't know of any other place (other than the AVS forum) where consumers can get such high quality information.

    Cheers,
    Liam




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  10. Stuart Wright

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    As Richard commented, 'I don't think anyone who can't see the difference between a line doubler and a de-interlacer can really speak authorativley on image quality.'
    Well hopefully we can organise a HCCO forum day out and have some industry experts talk about the various technologies and demonstrate the differences between them.
    Hopefully Charles will come along.
    Listen Charles, I agree with your isolated positive comments about the Ellie, but saying that it's better (I agree, of course it's more convenient) than a used Barco and HCPC is just foolish.
     
  11. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    This sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, mentioning the "p" word in front of my wife at the moment might result in a quick divorce [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Liam


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  12. RichardA

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    Jagular and Charles,

    Just to clear a couple of misconceptions - you'll notice I refer to the Ellie/Barco doubler against the DVDO Iscan Pro - hardly top end equipment - and that there is a clearly demonstrable difference between the two - It is not a slight difference, it is significant and I'm sure most people seeing them back to back would see it without it being pointed out.

    The Snell & Wilcox Interpolator Gold is aimed at the very high end Home Cinemas, of which there are a surprising number world-wide, and I do know that the majority of HCC readers may never be able, or want to, afford the kind of system that we fit in to.

    I actually only brought up Interpolator Gold (and the Faroudja 3000) to indicate how good an HCPC can be. I also mentioned that the differences between systems as you go up in price get a lot less - But then that is no different to the audio world - the law of diminishing returns - it gets progressively harder and harder (and therefore more time consumming and expensive) to get that last bit of performance out.

    I also tried to get across that different levels of de-interlacing and scaling are necessary for different levels of display device - you wouldn't put a £30K Interpolator onto a 7" CRT projector and expect it to perform miracles, nor should you expect a de-interlacer to be adequate on a 9" CRT projector.

    I would also say that people see the differences, and though many are small in the great scheme of things, they still get in the way of enjoying a movie, people may n ot realise what they are, but they still see them.
    If you are happy with your picture, fine, no problem, but people who say there is no difference are just as bad as anyone saying there is a difference when there isn't.

    Richard Ansell
    Product Manager - Interpolator Gold
    Snell & Wilcox
     
  13. Richard Harnwell

    Richard Harnwell
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    What a top idea!

    Is this likely?
     
  14. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Yes it is possible that there will be a HCCO day out where you'll be able to see top projectors and scalers and get some definative advice from experts.

    I've already started contacting folk in order to try and sort it out. It will take time. These things don't grow on tree's and manufacturers often plan their marketing and promotional activities up to a year in advance.

    I'm trying to do something that no-one has ever done at a hi-fi show, for no profit, in my spare time.

    Don't expect it this side of June, more likely after the summer. I will say that so far some BIG hitters want to get on board. One of whom is a regular here, thanks Richard!

    Anyway, I'm lazy and want to hold it in Glasgow at SS. Basically as we have a large, light controlled room which costs NOTHING to rent. Will you guys come or will I have to find somewhere else and charge for entry?

    Gordon

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  15. rhinoman

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    Yes i would come, i live in Kent, if you hold it in Glasgow, it would be a trek but nevertheless a interesting day out(weekend away?), if you want to hold it in London or anywhere else nearer to me, i wouldn't mind paying for entry.
     
  16. lmccauley

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    Like a shot [​IMG]

    I wonder if we could get a discount for a block booking at Malmaison (which is just round the corner from SS)?

    Cheers,
    Liam


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  17. Nic Rhodes

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    Gordon,

    Count me in. Glasgow is as close as it gets for a Cumbrian. It gets my vote!
     
  18. charles

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    Richard a,i`m sure you are an expert in your field-in fact the impressario wine taster of line doubling-but you are wrong,i did not directly say the ellie was as good/or bad as the i-scan.
    If you read my posts carefully,you will see that i advocate this;-unless you spend mega bucks there are not significant differences in any of the techniques used to smooth out the limited line resolution of dvd-or video for that matter.
    I have no doubt you can spot significant differences-its your job-you have a trained eye...but the layman?..i dispute this based on 20 years of assorted demo`s of everything out there..there are not major differences between say the ellie...or the i-scan..or the h.c.p.c....its a matter of taste and personal preference(..and careful setup-lets not forget that..)..NOW..compared to a snell and wilcox gold-you have a point-but how much are they?

    Spectre;-to imply i have no right to a view because i am not an expert-and by default i must be wrong,is against the whole principle of what this forum should be for,we all have our own views-and should share them-no matter whether we are so called experts or not.
    In fact if we take all the enthusiasts out of this forum and just leave the EXPERTS..we will be left with richard and gordon-and how will gordon tout for business?

    I hate hypocricy,my views are based on the admiration of the kit i have and the financial reality of trying to achieve the best setup i can for the money..i am not trying to sell anything-unlike others-which though against the rules of the forum, openly flaunt their wares(..of which you turn a blind eye..)...my views should be respected-even if you dont agree..but all you attempt to do is belittle-is that clever?

    ..And you say the ellie is not as good as a Barco and a h.c.p.c.?..what a sweeping statement!..what barco?..all barco`s?...what graphics card?...if you seek to disagree with what i say..fine..but be a little more precise please..and lets lose the hypocracy...you know what they say about people in glass houses..
     
  19. Stuart Wright

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    I'm sorry I actually felt it necessary to correct you when you were writing inaccuracies. As moderator of the forum I would rather people stepped in and corrected misinformation when they see it.
    What annoys me is you say that I imply you have no right to a view because you're not an expert. Where the hell did I say that?!
    I mean you have an opinion. But when you start writing inaccuracies as if they were facts, don't expect people to not respond.
    I responded with some sweeping statements in response to sweeping statements.

    Now to your allegation that I'm turning a blind eye to people openly flaunting their wares. Care to be specific? Which posts do you think are 'ware flaunting' and not interesting/educational/beneficial to the Video Projector forum? Or do you just object to knowlegeable people correcting your arguments?

    I'd like to offer some advice. While the pleasantness of a projected image may be somewhat subjective up to a point, if an industry expert tells me that, in general, there is a significant difference between the iScan, the Ellie and a HCPC, I would have the good sense to listen and humbly take it onboard. Perhaps to then check out the various technologies myself to form my own opinion. I would not shut my eyes and ears and scream that my system is as good just because I want it to be.
     
  20. meva

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    Charles,I know they probably aren't intended this way,but your posts do mostly seem to scream out "anybody who doesn't buy an Ellie is a complete cretin".Please keep them coming though.

    Meva - and everyone else - you CAN edit our own posts.
    [This message has been edited by Spectre (edited 07-03-2001).]
    Thanks Spectre I didn't know.

    [This message has been edited by meva (edited 07-03-2001).]
     
  21. Jenz

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    Charles, to counter argue your Layman point:

    I had a couple of Laymen around for tea on Sunday (not in the Hannibal sense).

    I quick demo of my setup using DVD into Barco Projector using Line Doubling was good for them. A quick flick to the HTPC was WOW to them...

    I still would be interested in demoing an Iscan Pro to look at the relative merits although Gordon has correctly counter argued that I would probably not benefit.

    I personally feel strong that a scaler/doubler combo fed digitally via a HTPC takes some beating and a standard Line Doubler isn't it.

    For what its worth I've been asked to take my rig upto Ellie to show them (Jim) which I promised I would do.

    Personally Charles I'd also like you to spec out your Setup, sources and scaler/doubler. I find it difficult to respond without knowing what your kit is.

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    [This message has been edited by Jenz (edited 06-03-2001).]
     
  22. Gary Palmer

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    Gordon,

    I would love to come. It sounds fantastic.

    Trouble is my wife will probably carry out a full body search for credit cards before letting me out the house.

    :)
    Gary


     
  23. RichardA

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    Charles,

    Please at least have the courtesy of reading the responses! You will note from both my responses that I was comparing the Ellie with the Iscan Pro - NOT mega buck scalers like the Interpolator.

    At that level there IS a significant difference, noticable by laymen without it being pointed out by me or anyone else. Yes I've seen this test done, recently (i.e. within the last two weeks) with a non-video audience. From the reaction I witnessed (and I had no direct involvement in the organisation or the kit involved) the difference is obvious to most.

    Simply because I work for a high end company does not mean I cannot see the 'real world'(my own 'home cinema' consists of a 20 year old Sanyo 4x3 TV set).

    I do think this thread is getting way off the original intent, and could just degenerate into a complete slanging match, so I would like to end my contribution to this thread by saying - the proof of the pudding is in the eating - Don't believe the hype, see the differences (or lack of them) for yourselves. I'm sure Owl will be more than happy to show off the Iscan Pro.

    Richard Ansell
    Snell & Wilcox
     
  24. Couch Potato

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    Gordon,

    Count me in for the visit to SS!!!

    Rgds
    Steve
     
  25. charles

    charles
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    Spectre,i`m sorry but my innaccuracies-as you put it-were my views and the tone of your post implied i had no right to disagree with an industry expert-this is rubbish,i believe-and still maintain-that there is a hap`worth of difference between the various methods of economical line doubling/scaling.
    This is my opinion based on what i have seen-and the kit that over the years i have had.
    As regards the industry experts that make suggestions on the best methods/kit etc..of course this is welcomed-but one must take with a pinch of salt a recommendation that points to the kit that expert just happens to be selling!(agreed they might be selling it because they believe in it-but there is also a financial motivation involved,and sometimes the lure of the greenbacks CAN cloud constructive criticism.)

    Stereo Stereo,OWL and others have i`m sure made sales off the backs of their recommendations-there is no harm in this i believe-but the rules of the forum are clear-this should not happen,it should not be a medium for people to sell their wares-however discreetly...but it is,you know it ..and i know it..and because of this,the RECOMMENDATIONS could ...just could..be a little biased.
    Now to know this,and to openly berate my singing the praises of the Ellie is hypocritical.
    I stand to make no financial gain,when i recommend-end of story.
    their is i believe,an industry dislike of the Ellie-because it is a great value product that CAN hold its own with products costing an awful lot more...take the review in h.c.c....probably the most stringent tests with the most high brow criteria ever thrown at a product to grace the pages of h.c.c.(..i can only think of a Barco projector that received a similar battering..)....the fact that this criteria was not applied to the Seleco ht200 and the Sony widescreen lcd-seems almost stacked in the favour of the big boys..and i`m still miffed that the Ellie is not even in the best products section-though it is clearly better than most of the others!!!...

    So yes,i am a strong advocate of the Ellie because i believe it has had the unfairest treatment possible-and thats an injustice!!

    It is in the interests of encouraging people to part with their hard earned cash that slight differences in line doubling/scaling blah ...blah...blah..are overstressed to keep people buying into the concept of;-perpetual improvement by perpetual spend...

    If it was true that a 50k setup was only marginally better than a 10k setup-would the need to spend 40k for a minute improvement be worth it?...of course not!(..except for the nutters of course...)

    I ADVOCATE STRONGLY..that the Ellie-for the money-4k-is brilliant....how much you gotta spend(..and i`m talking about new kit here..)to better it?...10k?...and how much better in performance terms?...5%?..well a 5% improvement on a 500 line resolution picture is not worth-to me at least-6k!!

    I don`t advocate the Ellie..i advocate the concept of great picture for sensible money...i advocate the view that you shouldnt feel embarrased to have a 4k setup-or be made to feel so-by experts who have the good fortune to work with the very best..

    Look at the top Rolls Royce in the range,is it 8 times better than a top of the range jag?...of course not..but people will pay 8 times more because the experts tell them it is worth it!!

    The home cinema game was in danger of becoming as stuck up and wine taster-ish as hi-fi became.in the good old days when you were a ****er unless you had a Linn Sondek lp12 and koetsu cartride...blah...blah..

    I welcomed it when the Pioneer a400 amp for 400 pounds was winning plaudits and thrashing amps costing 5/6 times more-it sent all those fuddy-duddy hi-fi buffs into hiding....

    Thats another reason i`m for the Ellie-it has brought 10k + quality to the masses-but it sure aint popular amongst the experts.(..or h.c.c.)...because people are less inclined tospend more if the difference is minimal..they have to sell the concept of huge improvements if you spend more-rather like the Rolls Royce Salesman...or speak the diminishing returns codswallop-what crap...if i spend loads i want loads of improvement-else i wont-and nor should anyone else,buy..-because otherwise there being duped by the god of consumerism and its agents to have you believe you shouldnt expect huge improvements-even though youve parted with a large wad of cash..

    So long live the Ellie-and products like it-and let the average joe have a great picture and be able to spend the money he`s saved by not listening ad verbatim to the experts-on a few great holidays!!!!!

    If i`m wrong in what i say-so be it-but at least my views are not motivated by money-unlike some..

     
  26. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    Charles,
    You don't half stir things up mate!

    You are biased, opinionated and worse than my bloody cat when it comes to speaking up for yourself but...... I find all your posts interesting and without fail I end up knowing more about x than I did prior to reading the threads!

    The Ellie has had more deserved attention from your goodself than anyone else period. Whilst I don't necessarily agree with all that you say, I've got plenty of time for you and I'm sure others, including all the fella's above, have too!

    Whatever you do, don't stop posting and keep asking them questions! (And if it turns out that your related to the Ellie's MD's aunt's father's son's friend's distant cousin next door but one - we'll be on yer back for years!)

    Paul

    [This message has been edited by PaulB (edited 07-03-2001).]
     
  27. Boris Blank

    Boris Blank
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    This could be interesting - how's about a report about how it compares to your Barco (ok, I know - you were intending doing that anyway but I thought I'd ask!).
    Paul

     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Charles:

    Just thought you ought to know that at present StereoStereo haven't sold any projectors or screens due to my postings on this forum, as far as I am aware. I have personally sold some units but then, I did place a classified ad, which I am sure even you will agree is within the bounds of fair play in this forum.

    The Sony LCD, you know, the one we both don't really like is our biggest selling unit and I don;t think I've been that pleasant about it here. We don't have an HT200 on dem, or an Iscan or a Seleco400/450/500/800.....We do have a Vigatec and we did have a Quadscan.

    I participate for the same reason you do. To give people greater knowledge so that they can make better decisions. A supreme irony here is that my signature file was cerainly not intended as a form of advertising but is included as a means towards total transparency. I am who I say I am. This is specifically because I don't want anyone to be deceived by anything I have to say. Surely it's better to make everyone aware of who I work for and what I do so they can see there is no hidden agenda?

    I applaud Richard, Chris and Alan for doing the same.

    I resent your implication that I am in some way dishonest and look forward to your apology.

    Gordon

    ------------------
    StereoStereo
    Intelligent Solutions for Intelligent Homes !
     
  29. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Don't worry, Gordon, (or Richard, Chris or Alan), you've all been honest and fair in your postings in my opinion. Which, of course is the one which counts.
    Charles, relax.
     
  30. charles

    charles
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    Gordon,
    In my post i mentioned possible sales off the back of recommendations-i also mentioned that i did not disagree with that.
    My implication was that i had no financial gain to be made by recommending a product whatsoever...i also said that some dealers may well be able to combine financial gain with selling products they believe in-i don`t disagree with that at all..
    But their will always be doubts in the minds of some,when a dealer-however consumer OR forum friendly recommends a product-especially if he just happens to stock it.Maybe iv`e stumbled into the old boys club where business is shared between certain members of this forum-i don`t care...i used this as an example to say my recommendation is totally what i believe in-with no financial gain to be had-however discete the business is negotiated...I in no way implied you were dishonest,it isnt dishonest to make a living-and if you make a little more from this forum-so what?...but dont you be a hypocrite and pretend you dont....cos i know you do..as do others,and again-my view is so what?...but i object to be taken to task for singing the praises of a product i believe in-with no financial gain to be had for me-when others are allowed-albeit cleverly,to sell the products they recommend....a little more biased than me i think....I also think the seleco ht200 aint bad,the sony crt is excellent,the dwin line doubler is pretty good,the sanyo lcd is good,the sony lcd...average..etc..etc...
    I also do not sell any of these...

     
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