The Last of Us Part II (PS4)

fallinlight

Well-known Member
I suspect in the fullness of time, TLOU2 will not be held in the same regard as the original.
I really think TLOUII will be held in the same or higher regard by many than the original, at least by a majority. Whilst some like yourself will not hold it in the same regard. I don't think that it only works one way, collectively. And what I do find more interesting and important, is the diversity of discussion and interpretation alone that the game has created. The ability for the game to generate this very discussion we are having right now, on here is part of a wider one which I find very endearing, far-reaching and deeply powerful. In this regard, I think the game will forever be remembered, at least as an important discussion point in the history of video gaming. But I do feel that a lot of the comments against the game fall short of explanation and furthering the discussion in way that will help me to understand those points, yet alone add meaningful justification on their behalf. Regardless, I feel that the opposing arguments always seems to negate the qualities inherent in the game regardless of whether they like it or not. As I do think, one can still understand the why of something and at the same time not personally like it. But I think in understanding the whys of this game, one can really come to appreciate and understand or like it. I think the divide reveals a sole characteristic which I think helps define TLOUII, and that is the very thing that I believe often stops folks understanding the game for what it is; whilst allowing others to understand moreso its nuances and meaning. I think that characteristic is one's ability for tolerance.

If one looks at all the arguments against why this game works or why a person did not like it, it is usually because they simply did not want to do a, y and z, or that they did not think it worked, or that "I don't want to play this sh*t". Otherwise, I never see a strong justification; explanation or argument as to why they dislike the game or an element of it. If you consider these points, it can all be attributed to one sole thing as barrier to entry, which make up a strong foundation of my earlier points. And that is that I firmly believe that this game demands tolerance and the better of you. TLOUII only works fully for the type of individual that is willing to fully let their ego go and be open, tolerant and mindful of an experience, and things that they may usually tend to hate, dislike or not understand. That is after all, the virtue of tolerance. I stressed fully above, because it is obvious and clear, as shown on this very thread, that many members think TLOUII is an 'OK' game as well. And I think in these instances, one can attribute this to a certain level of tolerance for the game. I argued earlier in this thread and the Review thread how we find the very characteristic of intolerance and tolerance and ego reflected in core aspects of TLOUIIs themes and the gameplay mechanics, which I find makes the message of the game even more pertinent and powerful.

As I previously argued, I think everything in TLOUII is justified, whether you may like it or not. I think this is what separates it from visual mediums of lower caliburs that lack justification. And I think the other factor, is simply giving yourself into the game as I always describe. ND historically create games that are story driven and they use character to tell their stories. They always mention this in their discussion about their creative process. In that regard, games like TLOU and Uncharted are not like your RPGs or your David Cage's of video games. ND always have a very strict and clear vision of how they want to tell you their story. And characters are always their very own selves; the player is just along for the ride. Thus, understandably, why not everyone will be accepting of nor like their games. And TLOUII just so happens to be one of those games. But it is here where I believe, that it is then up to the player how much if at all, they want to be tolerant of the game and what it can offer. I understand and I respect that we are all different, but I truly believe that this is the main reason for the division and variation in acceptance and experience derived from TLOUII.

I want to go back a bit and mention the pre-relase game leak outlash. Because sadly, we saw the worst example of intolerance in the hate culture, abuse and death threats directed to the creator(s) when the game leaked. I think many people were quick to build ego shields in order to express their hatred. Expressions of disgust and hatred and threats centred around not just the games treatment of character and narrative decisions; but LGBTQ agendas and beliefs and identity politics. People rushed to condemn it before experiencing it and deciding to even tolerate it. For these folks, it was over for them from the start and nothing would change their minds. I think the reaction as a whole revealed a lot about certain people and the gaming community, for better and worse. It revealed to me the insecurities and inner issues of a lot of people. But the sole thing one can boil it down to is intolerance, and I believe it is this and its opposite quality which I think defines TLOUII in many ways as a crowning achievement; and at the same time why it will never be seen as an achievement for others.

After all, tolerance is the thing that always us to overcome our very own hates and dislikes. In this respect, I think the game encourages those willing, to go further within themselves and flick that switch, perspective and innate sensibility to see and behave differently; for example, we are often hearing, this game 'forced' me to do x, y and z. But, I think once one sees the game and its intent from a different perspective, that word, 'force' I think, really becomes defunct, inappropriate and inaccurate. In the context of the game, I think perspectives and attitudes of tolerance starts to change the language of 'force' to 'accept' and 'willingness'. Since after all, if you do not think you are being forced, you are simply willing to accept that the game is asking you, or encouraging you to play and or think a certain way. And that is why I believe this only happens when the player lets go fully their ego in order to be beholden to the game. Hence, this is why I think TLOUII really does encourage a change, if possible or necessary in the individual player, in order to accept, play, or see its purpose. And in that, you may say, OK, I understand that, but I don't want to have to be made to feel like that, or why should I have to forgo that in order to play or enjoy a game? Well, to that, I say that you do not have to, but if you do, is that not a powerful thing? For how many times does a creative work challenge us? Are you willing to forgo that challenge if it might help you grasp or accept the deeper meanings of the game?

To evidence my points above I will discuss a new idea this time. As I had already discussed why I think
Abby
was justified as a character and as a means to convey theme and further story. This time I will turn to another example. A common attitude to the TLOUII is, 'Revenge/ violence is bad, I know this already', so the game is 'pointless' or, in that regard, 'Why was I forced to do all the things I did and not
end up not killing Abby in the end?'

I think Ellie uses revenge as an addict uses their addiction, be it alcohol, crack cocaine, or porn, She does so blindly and unconsciously, avoiding her own painful feelings of self hate, guilt and regret. Ellie was not only robbed of the person she loved the most in her life. But she was also robed of the opportunity to reconcile with him. She also cut him off for years. I certainly felt very pitiful for Joel, for how Ellie treated him. The hatred that Ellie feels for Abby is ultimately an externalised reflection of the inner hatred, pain and regret Ellie harvests for herself (I discussed earlier how I found the game to be a balance of internalised emotion and the externalised results and repercussions of those emotions, hate and violence being one example). This pain and regret is alluded to throughout the game, her internalisation of conflict, and in her journal. Ellie hates not just Abby but herself for essentially torturing him by disassociating herself from him and not being able to restore their relationship - and to think that she was about to start the day he died, this must cut so very deep for Ellie. She also at one point, when Abby has her at gun point, shifts all the blame suddenly onto herself, pleading with Abby something along the lines of, "I'm the one you want, I am the cure", alluding to how Ellie feels she is the one who wasted the opportunity tot save the human race. One can imagine and feel the pain and situation she has been thrust into, because of Abby's actions and out of Ellie's love for Joel, shifting all of the burden to herself alone. I thought this was such a human moment and the acting here was remarkable, as is the for the entire game, I think. It really helped convey her pain, self-hate and turmoil. It is not until Ellie is on the brink of killing Abby, after losing everything, does she finally have the realisation that the right thing is to not just perhaps forgive or let Abby go but, most importantly forgive herself and finally come to terms with what happened between her and Joel. Joel deeply hurt both Abby and Ellie in different ways and they both punished him for it. Ellie hates Abby for torturing Joel to death, especially because she didn't get a chance to restore her relationship with Joel. Ellie finds inner-peace and consolation in her love and relationship with Joel, and his memory and spirit. To speak figuratively, she tosses the needle aside and has now looked at the source of her addiction and her wounds and come to terms with it. We see her throughout the game trying to do this by healing through her use of the guitar and the moments of recollection it imbues in her and the player. But now, Ellie is truly able to let her own inner pain, hate and regret go. I also argued how this represents a giving up of self or ego. Since revenge is a personalised desire and act, just as it is for Abby, which due to selfish desires, cost both characters everything. Ellie, like Abby was before, is like a drug addict, using revenge and violence to avoid dealing with her own feelings. After all, it is ultimately only Ellie alone that determines if Abby dies or not. And she does this by coming to terms with herself and feelings.

With Ellie now at inner peace, she can now move on and start a new life. She lets Abby and Lev go. Perhaps she also sees in their bond and relationship, the bond that she and Joel shared. So, this is why I argue that the acts of revenge and the purpose of the game was not pointless and for nothing. The point to me was how the game portrayed the internalisation of revenge and inner conflict as a root cause, its repercussions and how it can be dealt with. The lesson for me was the vital importance of fostering inner-health by actually looking underneath to see what is causing one's actions, or what motivates the way one behaves - this is the 'why', the reason. This encourages the act of self-reflecting and improving upon oneself. And then at the same time I learnt the vital importance of tolerating others and having empathy, because this is what allows the acts of forgiveness, redemption and ability to save and protect which we see carried out by Abby and Ellie in the game. Thus, for me, TLOUII hits home the power of self; realisation, through tolerance, empathy and love.

So, it is a path of revenge and inner-conflict that all leads to Ellie's final momentful act. And the game asks you to confront Ellie's actions as a player' and in turn, Abby's in order for the game to show you this portrayal and meaning. One only sees this through empathy, and mindfulness, by renouncing ones ego; just as Ellie did. And it is in this respect, that I think the player really needs to be wholly tolerant and accepting, and of a level of mind and heart that is equal to that which the characters not only go through during the game - one after all, must be able to empathise in real time with them in order to feel and think as they do - but also be of heart and mind that is equal to them at the very end of the game, and their stories; since it is the conclusion of character which show their transformation. The game is truly a study of humanity through very human behaviours such as revenge, forgiveness. regret, hate and love. If you do not study these themes then how will you come to see and understand them as Abby and Ellie do? In the same way, if I truly wanted to become an astronomer, I would need to understand the solar system. So, I would really need to give up any pre-conceived notions or false suppositions about planets, the stars, gravity, space etc, and listen, see and study it in order to fully grasp it and become that astronomer. If I wanted to be a nurse and save peoples lives I would really need to have the ability to study the science and laws of anatomy and to be able to fully empathise with those that suffer. And I do these things by giving up my ego to the way things are, not how I want them to be.

Just as the planet is not mine, nor the human body, The Last of Us and its characters are not mine either. I respect it because I trust it. I understand it. I was able to tolerate and empathise with it. In holding the controller, I am just the vessel and siphon for the game's essence and meaning. In this respect, I am glad that
I was not given the choice to kill Abby or not, just as we were not give the choice to save Ellie or kill the nurses at the end of the first game. As I discussed previously, one of these reasons is because, the message to me was that revenge was pointless and futile in the end, causing the loss of humanity, self and everything Ellie and Abby were before. And that showing us that Ellie renounces revenge shows us that she has conquered her inner turmoil and thus, concludes her character arc in the game. Thirdly, having Ellie not kill Abby reinforces the theme and moral message, since Abby had also renounced pursuing revenge earlier in the game.

This is why I think that in these games in particular, characters are absolutely their own people. And we are just along for the ride as the player. We see this reflected in comments like @Cha1ky's. They said above,

" What an amazing game. I let myself get pulled in by it all and I thoroughly loved it!!!"

I think that says something about the nature of TLOUII and how this harks back to my argument of how the game demands the very best of us through the virtue of empathy and tolerance.

But the tool, the binding thing between the game and player, I believe, is empathy. And so, I believe that when the game changes perspective; the player must too, we really must, and keep up and try to see and feel, since this is the very thing which helps us understand the characters. I think that tolerance allows access to the why. And from this hopefully an appreciation of the game, whether one likes it or not. But the alternative to what we are used to or like, or believe in is always our antithesis - this is very reason why it is a challenge. And it is in this that I see in The Last of Us Part II, the virtue of tolerance and empathy. And I think overcoming that challenge inside of us, just as
Abby and Ellie do in the game
brings one further to understanding the game but just like it affords
Abby and Ellie,
brings us towards feeling and knowing what it means to be human. This catharsis, which I discussed previously, brought about by the games portrayal of raw emotion and feeling, and its eliciting of empathy to feel and understand that, is what brought about my transformative experience from playing TLOUII. I was left feeling humbled and humanised and I immediately began putting into practice actions and feelings of more tolerance and empathy than I was used to before towards my my loved ones and others. Ellie's inner-conflict and regret made me think about the fleetingness of time and the importance to seize that and our loved ones and be grateful for what I have. Ellie's PTSD and the games dealing of trauma helped me deal with my own. Ellie's and Abby's self-realisations and renouncing of their egos reminded me that inner-health and self-reflection are vital means to improvement, progress and change for the better; but not without empathy, forgiveness (of self and others) and love (of self and others). The portrayal of Abby taught me to be more tolerant and to be better at not judging others or reducing them to a sum of their parts; and the same goes for the respect of Ellie. And the fact that the game perfectly echoes the current anathema in our society; and our own cyclical hatred and violence, makes me feel awake to these issues and compelled to be better. Ultimately, the transformative impact and real-life effects and relevance of The Last of Us Part II is why for me, the game succeeds. I think it is powerful, meaningful and culturally relevant. It stands as one of - if not the most powerful and highest experiences of a visual medium I have ever experienced.
 
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fallinlight

Well-known Member
Fantastic points, beautiful said and keen observations all around, mate. I especially like what you say
about Ellie, Joel and the hunter/surviver mentality. In fact, what you've said has enriched the game experience even more for me, if that's possible because I agree and can see your points all around.

I think you're absolutely spot on about Joel's demise and nature of it. Joel got soft, I mean he even looks smaller in this game than the heavy broad shouldered brute he did in the first, and i'm guessing that was done on purpose. As you've alluded to, The Joel from the first game would NEVER have attempted to even save Abby, let alone get ambushed like that. He had sharp instincts and treated everyone with suspicion as evidence by how quick he was to beat up Henry before even considering whether he was a threat or not.

The bit where you go to Joel's house as you say is interesting because I hadn't even thought about the details about his last meal and stuff like that, but yeah, it's all there for you to soak up and ponder. I especially liked getting that revolver back and try and use it as much as possible in honour of Joel.

Also hadn't thought about The Terminator score, but you're dead on point! The lethalness of Ellie during those moments is just brilliantly conveyed. She feels so wild in those moments whether it's crawling around the ground like a savage or slitting someone's throat.

Love The Terminator link too and hadn't even thought of that. Its easy to forget that Ellie is actually special in that she's completely immune to the virus like how The Terminator is immune to bullets and the likes. The bit with the room with red lighting and her pursuing the friend of Abby...who basically gets quickly infected while Ellie calming locks them in...straight up menacing there with violent intentions. She feels incredibly predatory and single minded there. Love it, mate.
1000% man. I feel you. Thank you for understanding my points. You also raise some nice details, too. the red in that scene, I alluded to that in my first post on the Review thread - absolutely dude!

I used the below previously in other arguments. But here they are again for folks to ponder on how they relate to the game:

'Feeling is first' - E.E. Cummings.

"We recall memory with our feelings" - Dr. Ana Stelline from Blade Runner 2049.

"If you have authentic memories you have... real human responses. Wouldn't you agree?" Dr. Ana Stelline.

"If I ever were to lose you
I'd surely lose myself"
- Pearl Jam, Joel Miller, Ellie.

I may eventually do a proper essay with proper/ other sources for references. I know that there will be a wealth of sources to draw from, be it psychological, emotional; PTSD, criminal or humanity studies, essays and research papers.
 

Cha1ky

Member

fallinlight

Well-known Member
Very impressive. Well done to ND and Sony.

I was also impressed to see Xeoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition knock of Animal Crossing! I need to finish Chronicles 1 first but its going to be a while! I think the game is at least 130 hours long and I am only about 60 hours in. I can't wait to open my collector's edition.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Something I've been thinking about (and maybe I'm full of ****) is that Ellie and Abby are reflections; not of each other, but of Joel.

Ellie is like Joel after he lost Sarah: eg angry, vengeful, uncaring, ruthless.

Abby is like Joel after he meets Ellie: eg softening, slowly becoming selfless and protective to a younger person.

They are like the ying and yang of Joel's character arc.

Or something.
 

rowedav

Distinguished Member
Something I've been thinking about (and maybe I'm full of ****) is that Ellie and Abby are reflections; not of each other, but of Joel.

Ellie is like Joel after he lost Sarah: eg angry, vengeful, uncaring, ruthless.

Abby is like Joel after he meets Ellie: eg softening, slowly becoming selfless and protective to a younger person.

They are like the ying and yang of Joel's character arc.

Or something.
Yeah there are a number of ways of looking at the characters and where they are in the own arcs and how they have parallels.

Through the course of the game, we see Abby‘s laser focus on revenge. We also go on that journey with Ellie.

We see Abby reflecting on what she did and realising she’s done something horrible and that it hasn’t changed anything - it hasn’t brought her Dad back. We eventually see Ellie reach this point too, and is why, at the end of the game she finally relents and lets Abby go.

Both lose the important people in their lives as they go through the process of seeking revenge (“there is a cost”)
 

raymondo77

Member
20 more insane details. 😁

 

rousetafarian

Moderator
Just completed it. What a rollercoaster that was!!!!!

What an amazing game. I let myself get pulled in by it all and I thoroughly loved it!!!
Crikey did you go through it in one sitting?
 

Cha1ky

Member
Crikey did you go through it in one sitting?
Took me close to around 30 hours I think. This is from launch mind. I've hammered it the last couple of days because I'd seen a couple of spoilerish bits in here and just wanted to get it finished so that I could enjoy the thread properly again.

Really was superb though. Missed loads of collectables but not too fussed about that ATM.

Cathing up on youtube and the likes now its done :)
 

rowedav

Distinguished Member
Bit random but I was thinking of the ps5 version...if you could get haptic feedback through the touchpad that would be really good for the guitar playing bits
 

fallinlight

Well-known Member
Bit random but I was thinking of the ps5 version...if you could get haptic feedback through the touchpad that would be really good for the guitar playing bits
F'ing brilliant thought. I like.
 

fallinlight

Well-known Member
Something I've been thinking about (and maybe I'm full of ****) is that Ellie and Abby are reflections; not of each other, but of Joel.

Ellie is like Joel after he lost Sarah: eg angry, vengeful, uncaring, ruthless.

Abby is like Joel after he meets Ellie: eg softening, slowly becoming selfless and protective to a younger person.

They are like the ying and yang of Joel's character arc.

Or something.
Yes, I absolutely agree. However, I think it is important to know that the reflections and traits you mention do not remain fixed in the game. I will extend your point to say that these reflections and traits are not constant, and are treated with nuance throughout the development of the games narrative. Hence, the development of both Ellie's and Abby's character arcs which both arrive to a conclusion.

I like your take; you are drawing on a different perspective and description of my argument of two role types in the game: survivor-hunter and companion. But it is clear to me that these roles change within characters over the course of the game. I said earlier that Joel was the survivor-hunter. But since finding civility in Jackson life, he has been humanised by family, love, community, hobby- culture essentially. Hence, why he and
Tommy (also humanised and a companion) allow themselves unknowingly to be ambushed. They have become more rusting of outsiders. I think there is also a reference in the game to the Jackson folks taking in or giving betrayers another chance - someone please correct me.

The survivor-hunter acts as a needs to an end, is is always in a violent way. And for
Ellie and Abby, it is always out of their sole, selfish pursuit for revenge. Abby is similar to Joel as you say, until she renounces her ego and thus, revenge, she is now able to selflessly kill only to protect and save Lev and Yara. Beyond this point, Abby never kills anyone for selfish desire. However, revenge takes hold of her once again and she almost kills Ellie and Dina when revenge almost consumes her fully again, but she is reminded by Lev in the last moment; similarly to how Ellie is reminded of her relationship to and with Joel when drowning Abby - at this point she is no longer like Joel as a hunter-survivor. Ellie "returns to Joel after he meets Ellie" as you put it. She is humanised and ego-less. This is done to show us that Ellie has resolved her own inner-conflict, found inner-peace through no longer holding regrets; of not being able t resolve her relationship with Joel, and in finding forgiveness and in herself for her mal-treatment of Joel, and perhaps Abby. This reinforces the notion that resolve of hate and vengeance starts from within and through empathy and forgiveness. Simiarly, Abby chooses to not avenge when she is reminded of the goodness in Lev, and of Abby's duty towards him and love for him. Abby's moment of descent again, reinforces the cyclical nature of revenge, hatred and violence. But eventually, caring and loving once again becomes Abby's sole focus - protecting and partnering with Lev, and it reminds us of Joel's bond with Ellie. Abby also pursues the Fireflies; arguably also another more selfless act, since it is an endeavour for what she believes - I think this game is also about what the individual believes is right - is a greater good.

The other role of companion signifies traits that are more humane and thus the companion trusts, loves, cares, protects, does not kill at all or does not kill for oneself, and is therefore is not selfish, but rather selfless - hence my point earlier about the virtue of being ego-less to accomplish good in the game, which I think is a very strong moral theme and lesson. Hence, Abby's arc towards redemption and good, being a protector. I believe that both characters
achieve this quality, it is just that Abby realises this before Ellie.
Having the alternations of the survivor and companion roles help to humanise both characters but also show us the cyclical nature of revenge, hate and violence. Ultimately, it brings both character arcs to a full conclusion. And this is why character is so fully realised and justified in the context of The Last of Us Part IIs game world; violence is justified because it is a means to an end for characters in a world defined by vengeful acts. The game shows us how hate is an internalised emotion that eventually manifests into physical violence in the form of revenge. This is reinforced by written accounts of other avengers, each who think they are right. The written accounts also help us relate closer to the internalisation of their feelings by drawing us into their personal accounts. The violence; hate, and other negative feelings have severe repercussions of loss, PTSD and inner-conflict which run throughout the game in a consistent and multi-faceted way, since these themes are compared and contrasted between the two leads and also to an extent, with supporting and written characters. It becomes a chilling reminder of its devastating outcomes and effects. As I said before, I firmly believe that the main barrier to entry to understanding and feeling this to the fullest is the individual's level of tolerance and empathy, since these to me are the games core means of communicating these meanings.
 
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sykotik

Distinguished Member
Whats impressed me the most is 😲

There hasn't been a "day 1 patch" two weeks later and still hasn't been a patch or update now .
Can't remember the last time a game -was "complete" when it was realest..
 

Robothamster

Distinguished Member
Last night I finished
Day 3 of Seattle, the Aquarium
. Am I right in assuming I'm about halfway through? Game save was at 13.5 hrs.
 

raymondo77

Member
Last night I finished
Day 3 of Seattle, the Aquarium
. Am I right in assuming I'm about halfway through? Game save was at 13.5 hrs.
Pretty much, yes.
 

Robothamster

Distinguished Member
Wow, this is absolutely mental. The poor VO actress that voiced Abby is getting death threats in Twitter:
 

raymondo77

Member
Wow, this is absolutely mental. The poor VO actress that voiced Abby is getting death threats in Twitter:
Disgusting.
 

fallinlight

Well-known Member
Whats impressed me the most is 😲

There hasn't been a "day 1 patch" two weeks later and still hasn't been a patch or update now .
Can't remember the last time a game -was "complete" when it was realest..
I experienced a few bugs in the game which included a character suffering an NPC supporting charcter falling into ab animation loop and getting stuck clipping into another charcter, falling through the game world and dying and a complete game crash.
 

fallinlight

Well-known Member
Disgusting.
Not read the tweet. It is absolutely disgusting. Very sad. In the Kindafunny Spoilercast Neil he said he also received death threats. I assume many of the key creators did. It directly reflects the games themes of intolerance and hate.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Disgusting and pathetic, but not really surprising. Twitter is a **** show at the best of times, and with millions of people using it, anyone who represents an unpopular character will get death threats from a bunch of absolute muppets with no life.
 

fallinlight

Well-known Member
Disgusting and pathetic, but not really surprising. Twitter is a **** show at the best of times, and with millions of people using it, anyone who represents an unpopular character will get death threats from a bunch of absolute muppets with no life.
Yes. In acting so inhumanely, these bigots and low lifes will always show themselves for who they truly are. One must be deeply troubled to act like that. It is always a reflection of ones own insecurities as I mentioned above, and often a projection of their own self hate. It pains my heart. It is a shame that these things have to come to pass. Sadly, this will always be an ongoing issue. But at the same time, this evil only strengthens the good, positive thinking side of the culture that this game is harvesting before us. Because I am glad that at the same time, we have The Last of Us Part II be the game thst it is, and an audience of it that is tolerant, to both stand up to such putrid hate and intolerance. I think those of us this way inclined share a very close relationship with the game. And the game being so powerfuly ressonant with virtues of good solely because of the very same hate and intolerance which permeates against it in real life has only strengthened my character as it has others. And this I think in turn, strengthens the game because it becomes even more culturally relevant. This line of defense and virtue harvests a culture and community of good. I think this will only help to defend those that suffer wrongly like this even more. Not that it needs or should ever take a video game for us to do so. But I believe that having this game and its virtues of good reinforce the good in us signals another powerful acheivment of this game; for I would not be here typing this or at least in the same way, not knowing the power of virtue that The Last of Us Part II has.
 
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