The Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

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Dextur

Distinguished Member
Anybody have any feelings either way on this issue?

I've followed the process for many years and with Bush heading towards the region whilist simulatenously stipulating he has no intention to lean on either party , how can peace be achieved.

Israel is currently celebrating it's 60th aniversary whilist 1.3 million palestinian "refugees" will celebrate just finding adequate food.

Olmert is a veritable left winger compared to Sharon and he's not managed to move the process forward, Who is likely to fill the void if Olmert is found guilty and will it simply make the so called peace process fall apart even further?
 

overkill

Well-known Member
I think you'll find this is too controversial Simon.

We've gone over it before, and it leads to heated arguments between the pro and anti Israeli members.

One guy even had done his Phd thesis on it, yet was coming out with blatantly biased information that even a quick flick through some of the better tomes on the issue showed was incorrect.

But there you go.

For myself, again having studied the issue, I have strong views on the US and Israeli position. Interestingly, I argued for years with US forum members on this topic (you can guess the vast majorities views) yet recently, a few of them have admitted, on actually reading the books I suggested, and digging a little deeper, they have abandoned their former animosity to the Palestinians, and by and large are pretty disgusted with the way they have been treated. Since as far back as the 1940's......................

By the same token they have abandoned their former unequivocal support for Israel.

Personally, I feel for the ordinary Israeli. They have done nothing wrong bar move to what they thought was a 'legitimate' homeland. Only to find, as so many other peoples have in the past, that they were lied to. Many lay Jews neither trust, nor respect the Orthodox leaders, nor the politicians who have talked peace on the one hand, then turned a blind eye to provocation and oppression on the other.

It's a very sad situation. :(
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
If years of discussing the issue have told me one thing, it's always controversial, but being well versed in the matter over the last 11 years or so I have found that those who initially start with the simplistic and erroneous "They should just stop blowing everybody up" mentality, do start to see a different viewpoint when provided with factual based data and I'm always happy to attempt that.

I didn't realise it had been done to death here previously , if that's the case I guess I'll leave it, but as conflicts go it's an interesting one to debate.
 

Stephen Wilde

Novice Member
I'm unhappy about the behaviour of both sides but the sticking points seem to be Palestinian recognition of Israel as a legal entity and Palestinian desire to reoccupy lost lands despite the impracticalities.

There have been many other mass movements of people over the years but those who moved always settled in new areas without nursing grievances supported by continuing violence forever. The separation of India and Pakistan is an example as are all the population movements during and after WW2.

A solution must involve recognition of Israel, abandonment of old territorial claims (but some recent abuses by Israel should be reversed), a cessation of violence and in return substantial practical and economic help for an independent Palestinian State from Israel.

I'm sure the average Israeli would be happy to meet the economic cost of helping Palestine in return for cessation of constant violence and threats of the annihilation of their entire state and, presumably, the murder of most of it's citizens. Any nation under that sort of pressure year in year out is likely to behave disproportionately.

It would help to arrive at a solution if surrounding Arab nations participated with Israel in helping the establishment of a prosperous Palestinian state instead of using the Palestinians to wage a proxy war against Israel.

Solutions exist but there is a lack of will on the Arab side. Israel would do almost anything for a reasonable solution. It is Arab attacks which generate support for hard line Israelis and Israeli responses which generate support for hardline Palestinians.

It is important to remember that the Israeli Palestinian issue is just part of a wider Middle East instability. Lebanon is a quagmire, Iran and Iraq are nearby and Syria lacks democratic credentials. There are too many powerful individuals who would prefer instability to continue for reasons quite seperate from the Israeli aspect.
 

Kristian

Well-known Member
I'll admit to being ignorant of the whole situation. Can someone please give me a brief and succinct history of it all, or point me to something online? (I know I could use google but I'll then get hundreds of links to go through)

Regards,

Kris.
 

Sonic67

Banned
How short do you want?

Six million jews wiped out in Europe.

They decided they weren't safe so moved into the area they lived in in biblical times.

Arabs in the area didn't want them as they were living there and have been trying to kick them out ever since.

Israel has been better at fighting than the arabs have so they kept winning and sometimes taking a bit more land as well.

I think that's about as basic as it gets.
 

crimsoneagle

Active Member
Personally I dont think this will ever be resolved...

:(

Too much has gone on and neither side is willing to say enough is enough...
 

Dony

Distinguished Member
Personally I dont think this will ever be resolved...

:(

Too much has gone on and neither side is willing to say enough is enough...

The same could have been said about N.Ireland. Thankfully here, both political sides realised that things couldn't go on like they had been and the will of the people ensured it wouldn't be allowed. :smashin:

There are quite a few parallels with the N.Ireland troubles and Israel - Palastine conflict.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
I'm unhappy about the behaviour of both sides but the sticking points seem to be Palestinian recognition of Israel as a legal entity and Palestinian desire to reoccupy lost lands despite the impracticalities.
The sticking points are numerous however one of the least important is whether Hamas recognises Israel, it has no choice but to recognise Israel in all but a written word.

Israel currently holds 1.2 million palestinians prisoner in an outdoor refugee camp restricting food, medical aid, and essentials in direct contravention of the Geneva convention in regards occupying powers and those of punishing the mass population. Why should Palestinians recognise an illegal brutal occupation who does not recognise their right to exist ?

The barrier of "acceptance" is just another smoke screen implemented by Israel to extend the occupation and land appropriation illegal under all International law and the road map.

Israel in truth could care less about whether Hamas recognises Israel, they don't even accept Hamas as the legitmate political power despite the elections being fair and entire accurate. Why would they care what the terroists do or don't accept. It's just another in the very long list of excuses Israel puts forward to ensure it can continue what it has done for 50 year, oppress, lock up, kill Palestinians and appropriate their land.

I suggest you do some reading of BTselem and other Israeli groups who will tell you exactly the same thing.

There have been many other mass movements of people over the years but those who moved always settled in new areas without nursing grievances supported by continuing violence forever. The separation of India and Pakistan is an example as are all the population movements during and after WW2.
You make it sound like they upped sticks for a holiday. Israeli thugs and IDF troops simply uprooted entire Palestinian towns, stole their land and dumped the Palestinians into refugee camps. Of course they nurse a bloody grievance. They have not essentialy settled anywhere, the Gaza strip is one of the most populated places on earth , a living hell made worse by an Israeli siege. Many of them actually lived in Israel, and I'm talking in the Cities, Israel allowed some to stay and simply kicked the rest out of their homes so Jews could live there. Not surprising they might be a little out of sorts about that.

A solution must involve recognition of Israel, abandonment of old territorial claims (but some recent abuses by Israel should be reversed), a cessation of violence and in return substantial practical and economic help for an independent Palestinian State from Israel.
Palestinians already gave up 80% of the contiguous land mass under the land for peace deal and Israel has ever since continued to take the remaining 20% by all means neccasary. The only real tangible guideline left is the green line and Israel has consistently built or allowed settlers to build past that line, why should Israel be rewarded for breaking international law and the Palestinians simply abandon all claim to their indegenous land? As far as violonce goes, who's violence? Israel's because it applies constant state terroism, why country on earth would not react with violence when under oppression for 50 years? Why would Palestinians not have the right to fight back against those who would murder them in their thousands?

There is plenty of money available to rebuild Palestine, Israel will never foot the bill, your living in a dream world if you believe that. Palestine is quite capable of providing it's own decent economy when not being strangeled by Israel , with UN money, Arab state money and donors it could be a flourising independent state where people can live a decent life and not be full of fear and hatred to those oppressing them.

I'm sure the average Israeli would be happy to meet the economic cost of helping Palestine in return for cessation of constant violence and threats of the annihilation of their entire state and, presumably, the murder of most of it's citizens. Any nation under that sort of pressure year in year out is likely to behave disproportionately.
But your missing the other side of the coin, and if you think the "average" Israeli from the right would do anything to help an Arab your a long way from reality on the situation. The Palestinian led violence is moderate, almost non existant for long periods of time despite constant provocation, humilation, illegal detension, road blocks, misery , suffering, lack of basic human rights.

Solutions exist but there is a lack of will on the Arab side. Israel would do almost anything for a reasonable solution.
It has literally nothing to do with the Palestinians at all, Israel could elicit a consistent peace almost overnight. Give the Palestinians back their home land on something approaching a contiguosl and mass, get back to behind the green line or pretty close, Israel has shown consistently that it primary focus is creating a greater Israel not peace. Historically Israel has shown it won't do a damm thing to create a resonable solution.
 

Stephen Wilde

Novice Member
SimonH,

You weren't seeking opinions at all.

Just an opportunity to vent your own bias and anger.

Hope you feel better now.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
You weren't seeking opinions at all.

Just an opportunity to vent your own bias and anger.

Hope you feel better now.
Apologies if my bias doesn't agree with yours.

I get miffed when I see an entire people being bullied for 50 years - if you call that anger - that's cool with me.

Marginally better, thx.
 

crimsoneagle

Active Member
I can see wher Simon is coming from but I honestly think both sides are as bad as each other Israel is just more organised and better funded.
 

Stephen Wilde

Novice Member
I can see wher Simon is coming from but I honestly think both sides are as bad as each other Israel is just more organised and better funded.
The question is:

Would the Palestinians ever treat Israelis any better than the Israelis have treated the Palestinians if they were ever in a position to do so ?

The concept of 'driving the Israelis into the sea' would suggest not.

It will take both sides to abandon their historical grievances and to change their current behaviour.

As previously stated, I do not approve of the behaviour of either of them.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Arabs in the area didn't want them as they were living there and have been trying to kick them out ever since.

Israel has been better at fighting than the arabs have so they kept winning and sometimes taking a bit more land as well.
Actually.. "Arabs" have had one real war with Israel after they felt they should do something to stop what they percieved as the destruction of Palestine and it's indigineos population. Israel was barely an innocent bystander in the wars and indeed started them in cases. Since then the "Arabs" have not been trying to kick Israel out, but have infact struck up numerous peace accords . In addition the Arab league has offered Israel full acceptance and trade ties on numerous occasions in exchange for the end of the occupation and an Palestinian state.

The Palestinians who under the Balfour declaration where meant to be allowed to live in peace in their designated area were constantly under attack from Israeli settlers , under the eye of the Government who allowed it to continue unabated and yes they did and do have the gaul to fight back.

Israel has been better at fighting the Palestinians as Israel has a phenomonal military presence and the Palestinians have little to combat it apart from gorilla warfare, however the Palestinians have not ever tried to take back part of Israel proper, it's an impossiblity, Israel however has continiously taken more and more land designated for the Palestinian state creating a "no light at the end of the tunnel" state of mind for the Pals, and therefore contuining the circle of violence.
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
The question is:

Would the Palestinians ever treat Israelis any better than the Israelis have treated the Palestinians if they were ever in a position to do so ?

The concept of 'driving the Israelis into the sea' would suggest not.

It will take both sides to abandon their historical grievances and to change their current behaviour.

As previously stated, I do not approve of the behaviour of either of them.
Why is that the question ? Of all the questions that surround the peace process why on earth would a theoretical question with no baring or benefit to implenting the peace process be "the question" ? I can think of a considerable number of more relevant questions that would determine whether peace can be implemented or not.

And actually yes, I think if they had not suffered 50 years + of violent military oppresion and occupation, I think they would.

And in fairness even now despite everything they have had to deal with, Palestinians for the most part still want a peace with Israel on the basis of the 67 green line.

Of course some want to see Israel obliterated, and you will find no shortage of Likud voting Israel's who feel the same about the Palestinians.
 

alexs2

Well-known Member
Anybody have any feelings either way on this issue?
Simon....perhaps having invited opinion on this topic,it would now be best to allow a few others to reply,if they so wish.

Otherwise,it may well seem that you are not interested in other person's views at all.
 

Sonic67

Banned
I get miffed when I see an entire people being bullied for 50 years - if you call that anger - that's cool with me.
The jews had had 6 million exterminated across Europe. Do you understand why they did what they did?
 

Dextur

Distinguished Member
Simon....perhaps having invited opinion on this topic,it would now be best to allow a few others to reply,if they so wish.

Otherwise,it may well seem that you are not interested in other person's views at all.
I don't understand the logic of that Alex, anybody can respond at any time and is doing so, whether I also respond to a post is irrelevent no ? I'm always interested to see what people say on the subject, but last time I checked I also have free will to disagree and put my opinion on the table.
 

Sonic67

Banned
Israel has been better at fighting the Palestinians as Israel has a phenomonal military presence...
Which is a result of Israels defence spending being high for decades as a result of the War of Independence, Sinai, Six day war, Yom Kippur war, gureilla attacks etc. They are surrounded by enemies. Five countries attacked them in 1948. The Yom Kippur war was deliberatly timed to catch them defenceless.
 

alexs2

Well-known Member
I don't understand the logic of that Alex, anybody can respond at any time and is doing so, whether I also respond to a post is irrelevent no ? I'm always interested to see what people say on the subject, but last time I checked I also have free will to disagree and put my opinion on the table.

My point is that this thread is beginning to turn into the predictably ill-tempered debate that would have been expected initially.

If it cannot remain civil,then obviously it may be closed,especially considering that the subject has been aired many times before.
 

Sonic67

Banned
The Israeli's survive on American and German handouts. Without $5billion dollars in financial = military assistant + guarenteed loans (meaning that if the Israeli's default, the US would pick up the bill), the Israeli's wouldn't last a month.
Maybe that's because unlike other countries in the area they don't have oil.
 

Stephen Wilde

Novice Member
The jews had had 6 million exterminated across Europe. Do you understand why they did what they did?
Please do not identify Jews generally with Israelis. That just inflames anti semitism. Many Jews are unhappy with Israeli conduct as much as Palestinian conduct.

You could say instead that 'The Israelis had had 6 million of their co religionists exterminated across Europe'
 
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