The incoherent ramblings of a mad AV fool

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
I :offtopic: 've looked at this and you're not comparing apples with apples.

The specific Marantz mentioned in this post is the SR6013, the figures you are using are for the SR6014.

I said my Marantz was similar but it is the 2014 model SR6008.

Here's a quote from the Marantz review you've used on ASR
Conclusions
Marantz takes one of the best AVRs we have tested, the Denon AVR-X3600H and reduces its performance into mediocrity in many areas. It seems that they are following audiophile fads, ignoring good engineering and proper audio research and science. I understand the need for differentiation but for heaven's sake, please don't sacrifice performance for it. Make the chassis out of gold or something. But please leave the active circuits alone. You have a good platform. Please don't ruin it this way.

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Marantz SR6014.


There are no figures quoted in either review for the current capacity. Mention is made in the review of the M2si about the fierce protection circuits causing problems with Amir's usual (and only half the story) method of testing power.

All this is irrevellent as it's the sound that matters, not some top trumps spec fest.

There are no mentions in the reviews of the power supply current delivery capacity or the total capacitance available. I do not intend to reply further.

@Gasp3621 said :- No i haven´t read the book sadly, but he quotes from he`s books are mentioned in many forums.

Can I suggest that you read the book before engaging in an argument with someone who has ?

I don`t need to read any book to understand which is more powerfull unit and you shouldn´t either. Marantz has larger powersupply as it needs to power 9 speakers and also it has larger capacitor banks (2x 12,000uF/71V at least in SR6014 and your M2Si has 2x 10,000uF/63V). We don´t need to argue which sounds better, clearly you know the answer already and that´s good. Maybe i should have added more smileys.

You can clearly see the measurements for both in 2channels for 8ohm and 4ohm which are taken with lower distortion than usually accepted (0,08%). The max power and peak power output are industry standard CEA-2006/490A with higher distortion, quite meaningless although we can see class a/b amps having more headroom for peaks than class-d amps. The equipment used is the same AP as with any other people who measure these products although i think Amir uses newer model as example Arcam had older AP device and couldn´t run many tests Amir did. No need to blame person if you don´t like the results. The objective data is there to see and it`s on par with others. There is nothing wrong as example Amir double checked all measurements with Marantz engineers (+Denon also) and they both agreed. You get what you see here. The issue is HDAM which adds noise and distortion. Also the DAC has slow roll-off and it seems to be more tuned by ear vs. Denon which measures better objectively, that should be the aim = total transparency. For Marantz sake they changed HDAM for the SR8015 and it does much better! Keep in mind that no one really tests receivers and show us how they measure, manufacturers have been got it easy until now. We have already seen years ago that when they started to push more features there was some cost savings in the more important parts, at least Yamaha did that with cheaper models. You don´t have to agree with the person measuring the devices. He is electrical engineer and thinks bit different than normal persons.

I probably looked wrong then about your model, but SR6008 still has the same 110w 8ohm 0,08% 2ch spec as the SR6014 tested. These manufacturers doesn´t change internal parts often, it´s usually more features and newer connections.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
A lot of these latest posts maybe off topic from the original post.
It is good to have some different opinions though even if we wander off on tangents
:offtopic: Yes, of course that happens and I'm as guilty as the next person.

I do not believe I know everything and that anyone with a different opinion is wrong.

But I do know a lot of the relevent technical stuff and base my opinions on personal listening and testing and reputable evidence sources, gathered over 50 years involvement - so that automatically excludes anything or social media or youtube - any idiot can and does post on those.

On matters of opinion everyone is entitled to their own.
However if that opinion is not based on real scientific facts - a hifi 'belief' or 'myth' and they try to peddle those on any thread I'm involved in - then I will try to introduce facts and explode the beliefs.

If the points I make are ignored, go over folk's heads, or they just battle on 'cause they believe something not based on their own actual experience - then I'll terminate my engagement.

So if it's not really relevant to the OP and the thread and is based on hifi myth or lack of understanding of the issues or is just factually wrong or is just someone who fancies an argument, then my tolerance gets tested. I don't suffer fools gladly - one of my less attractive character traits.

I try to remember to use the :offtopic: sign on my own posts off topic simply to signal diversions to make it easier for people to follow the main thread. It is not intended as criticism.

Anyhoo that's just my opinion :rotfl:
 

Derek S-H

Distinguished Member
@DartonDave - I've been looking at your photos again and trying to visualise what I might do if I were in that room.

Let's just ignore the fact that it has a monster fireplace and an entrance/exit door in an awkward position, I think you have three choices:

1. Have the current arrangement with the screen, speakers and amplification at one end near the door entrance/exit, but try and move your MLP closer.

2. Move everything 90 degrees and mount the TV above the fireplace and the electronics below, but this would mean only ever using the fireplace as a non-working feature.

3. Move your main speakers, electronics and TV down the other end of the room so they sit in front of the patio (?) doors. Do you ever use these doors?

The last one may not make any difference to the sound and, again, you'd need to move your MLP closer to have better impact, but I guess you won't know until you try it.

I dunno. I can't help feeling that experimentation with moving your set up + sofas around might give you the result you want without having to spend thousands on new gear. I know that's not what most people might advocate on here, but the general consensus is that it's the room that has the greatest impact.

So, I think, imagine taking everything out of the room so it's just a blank slate. Put the sofas back in first as that's where you sit - it is a sitting room, after all first and foremost, not a dedicated HC space. Then put the screen, speakers and electronics in last and see how it all fits together.

What do you think?
 

DartonDave

Active Member
I'm still around. Still in blissful ignorance. Still reading and learning. I will comment now and then. :)

The good thing is, the existing set up works. I can watch tv programmes and films on a good quality screen and with decent audio.
Its not like the living room has no roof or I have a bedroom with no beds in it, or a kitchen with no way to cook anything. :)

Once I've gathered my thoughts and done a bit more research I'll post again. Then put my tin hat on.

INCOMING........ :eek:
 

DartonDave

Active Member
@DartonDave - I've been looking at your photos again and trying to visualise what I might do if I were in that room.

Let's just ignore the fact that it has a monster fireplace and an entrance/exit door in an awkward position, I think you have three choices:

1. Have the current arrangement with the screen, speakers and amplification at one end near the door entrance/exit, but try and move your MLP closer.

2. Move everything 90 degrees and mount the TV above the fireplace and the electronics below, but this would mean only ever using the fireplace as a non-working feature.

3. Move your main speakers, electronics and TV down the other end of the room so they sit in front of the patio (?) doors. Do you ever use these doors?

The last one may not make any difference to the sound and, again, you'd need to move your MLP closer to have better impact, but I guess you won't know until you try it.

I dunno. I can't help feeling that experimentation with moving your set up + sofas around might give you the result you want without having to spend thousands on new gear. I know that's not what most people might advocate on here, but the general consensus is that it's the room that has the greatest impact.

So, I think, imagine taking everything out of the room so it's just a blank slate. Put the sofas back in first as that's where you sit - it is a sitting room, after all first and foremost, not a dedicated HC space. Then put the screen, speakers and electronics in last and see how it all fits together.

What do you think?
Thanks Derek. I did go back and read your original reply. I welcome all feedback.

1. Whilst a long way from perfect its probably my best option.
2. From the pictures its a good shout but if you came into the room, you would soon realise that's not that feasible. Plus we are going to put a "gas" wood burner in there.
3. Another good shout, but Im back to position 1 really. Just turned 180 degrees around. The fireplace is still in the way.

We have a new 3 seater and 2 seater settees coming in October (almost the same as the ones they are replacing but no rips in them!).
I did think about swapping them around so 3 seater becomes the MLP and 2 seater goes to the side. Doesn't really change much, other than there might be room for another sub near the door if I needed it.

I did think just how unrealistic would it be to use my single garage or build a purpose built building in the garden. For now. Its a no. I think.

Going slightly off topic I was in my neighbours house yesterday and they have a massive totally square living room, and its virtually totally empty. Wonder if they wanna swap houses? :)
 

Derek S-H

Distinguished Member
@DartonDave - did you visit the other Forum on here, the Members' HC set ups one, to see if anyone had a room with similar dimensions to yours and what they did?

There's no getting round it, it's that bloody fireplace! I mean, it is beautiful, but it's also a total pain in the arse for HC purposes!

No matter how you arrange things, it's always the fireplace you're having to accommodate. I quite like the idea of having the 3-seater as your main sofa and the 2-seater as support, but I wasn't sure whether to suggest it as it will take valuable space away from the width of the room.

I have a 3-seater in a room that's only 10 feet wide, but it's just me here and I don't mind walking through the gaps either side.

Looking forward to your replies as I do like your Thread. Some of the set ups on here are done professionally, cost thousands and look amazing. I don't have any problem with that, but yours is much more real-world, I feel.:)
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
My solution would an easy chair on wheels that could moved into a good MLP when that's the experience you want and out of the way and/or where you want for casual listening and viewing. I was going to suggest a deck chair but can't be bothered being funny.

If the mountain won't come whatever the saying is.
 

DartonDave

Active Member
My solution would an easy chair on wheels that could moved into a good MLP when that's the experience you want and out of the way and/or where you want for casual listening and viewing. I was going to suggest a deck chair but can't be bothered being funny.

If the mountain won't come whatever the saying is.
Total genius......
 

DartonDave

Active Member
@DartonDave - did you visit the other Forum on here, the Members' HC set ups one, to see if anyone had a room with similar dimensions to yours and what they did?

There's no getting round it, it's that bloody fireplace! I mean, it is beautiful, but it's also a total pain in the arse for HC purposes!

No matter how you arrange things, it's always the fireplace you're having to accommodate. I quite like the idea of having the 3-seater as your main sofa and the 2-seater as support, but I wasn't sure whether to suggest it as it will take valuable space away from the width of the room.

I have a 3-seater in a room that's only 10 feet wide, but it's just me here and I don't mind walking through the gaps either side.

Looking forward to your replies as I do like your Thread. Some of the set ups on here are done professionally, cost thousands and look amazing. I don't have any problem with that, but yours is much more real-world, I feel.:)
Yes I hadn't realised how much of a pain until after I had posted this thread.
The living room isn't much more than 11' wide so not much difference.

I suggested swapping the settees around but apparent that's a non starter too.
Even moving it forward is meeting some resistance.
Currently on..... having an extension into either the back garden or front garden.

Single you say? How much would that cost me?
Don't answer. Already done it once. It was way, way too much... :)

You're better sticking to the dedicated dream cinemas. Much easier than this bloke who wants to drive a 12' wide lorry down a 8' wide road.
:)

But I will look at that members setups. You never know.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
Total genius......
Thanks Dave.

It may just be me but in my work life I used a very simple approach of:- start at the beginning, move through the middle, get to the end and then stop. Then do a review - although there will be continuos reviews along the way.

The beginning is get all the facts, concepts,requirements etc.then make a plan with blue sky thinking, i.e. ignore all constraints, budgets and produce - let's just call it - the ideal situation.

The starting point of the middle is where you start off with the ideal solution, test it, gather options and information and costs and refine it and turn into the best version of ideal that's practical and achievable i.e recognising reality. Then you begin the implementation, reviewing and dealing with unforseen issues (such as covid) as you go along.

having an extension into either the back garden or front garden.
Log cabins or a folly might be nice......or build up. Have fun exploring options but don't get too off piste at this stage. The oven is pinging at me so have to go.

P.S. You might have noticed I still have a few spelling, missing word etc. issues. Please let me know if they're going worse. Cheers.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
That was a bit unfocussed for me. What I'm saying is don't try to find solutions at this point - that comes later.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member

DrH

Well-known Member
My HT, music system is in what was the single garage.
it is a small room but feels great.
I still have restrictions though.
The interior door is in the most awkward place where the sofa should fit.
The sofa is at one end the HT at the other end.

However,
A 65 inch UHD screen looks fantastic, the sound is fantastic, my sub manages fantastically in the small space.
The lounge stays exactly as the wife wants it
Win Win
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
did think just how unrealistic would it be to use my single garage or build a purpose built building in the garden. For now. Its a no. I think.
I'm certain I saw very good build on here recently. I've asked the molettes in the brain to go and find which filing cabinet it's in - as I'm running on reduced power, I couldn't give them usual clue of where to start - they may be looking for some time.

There's a filing backlog due C**** so I've told them to start with the heap of unfiled stuff.

unrealistic - please stop finding imaginary constraints - glass half full
 
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DrH

Well-known Member
As mentioned above glass half full.
A garage conversion is not a big job.
I had a builder do mine
I just needed permission from the local council.
I did all the AV install myself. Conduits in the wall for cables etc.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
It's probably easier and cheaper, as garage is empty shell and don't have any plaster so you could get all trunking and routing done.

I would probably have trunking where you can replace cables as needed (especially HDMI) so you just push/pull it through as needed. With ethernet, lots of dedicated, speaker wall sockets all areas where speakers will go, and add to full predicted number of speakers
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
and add to full predicted number of speakers

That's what I've been doing in our lounge. I've put in extra speaker wires for, e.g., potential front wides and two redundant RCA connections where a subwoofer could be placed.

I don't reckon DartonDave will need front wides, what do you think? 🤣
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
Went for a lie down. When I got up the molettes were waiting for me with a youtube video link. It's well worth watching. I've also included a link to his post which is quite long. I recommend starting with the vid.

Single Garage Conversion CableGuy

My home cinema (where the car used to live)

EDIT I was saving this for when you're further down the road - didn't want to distract you :laugh: but as it's already happening........
 
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DrH

Well-known Member
I have my first thread on here from 2009 for my garage conversion, not much info though
 

DartonDave

Active Member
Oooooh garage as a dedicated home cinema room... Exciting.

All I need to do is find a place for ....

gardening equipment (lawn mowers, forks, spades, rakes, fertiliser, brushes, petrol hedge trimmer, etc)
car cleaning gear (lots) (another hobby when the weather is nice)
tool boxes
Large car roof box
paint tins, brushes, trays, rollers, turps, etc
wellington boots, bleach, disinfectant, washing tablets, etc
pallets of water
a large and a small fridge
a chest freezer
a large Miele washing machine
bbq equipment
suitcases
garden chairs and parasols, cushions

(Like most people we have cars left on the drive and a garage full of s**t)

As the saying goes. No such thing as a problem just opportunities which haven't been explored yet.
Something like that anyway :)
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
(Like most people we have cars left on the drive and a garage full of s**t)

As the saying goes. No such thing as a problem just opportunities which haven't been explored yet.
Something like that anyway
My garage is exactly the same - cars in all elements. My BMW 740i had it's 24th Birthday last month. I only use it every other month for distance - use the electric i3 for local trips. As a present for it I considered replacing it's old car cover - but it really needs the garage - so bought a 2x3m metal shed to house the crap. Now just need to get a concrete base sorted.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
Oooooh garage as a dedicated home cinema room... Exciting.
Thought that might get you excited. Plus it'll be a home for one of the old sofas. And leaves SWMBO in charge of the living room.

The conversion includes a loo and utility room - so plenty of room for your appliances.

I expect you've already had the tape measure out ;) - let me know the dimensions including height and layout e.g. doors windows meters please.
 

DrH

Well-known Member
From
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to
48E8252F-A4E8-4CBE-BB14-46433DA84933.jpeg
 

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