The incoherent ramblings of a mad AV fool

gibbsy

Moderator
BTW Although it's reckoned that Marantz is one of the better AVRs for music - it's not better enough for music for me in particular analogue vinyl - even good recordings - although to be fair I've not yet taken time to try out my selection of cartridges -but even using CD is not good. And the speakers MA Silvers are great for AV but a bit OTT for the style I like for music.
I don't use my Denon for stereo music, multi channel SACD, DVD-A or blu ray only. I have a Rega Elicit-R with HT by-pass hooked up to the Denon into which my stereo SACD player is linked. Simply do not like AV amps for stereo music.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think its always good with upgrades to time and be sensible when spending a lot of money.

TV wise, I'd wait for Black Friday and get the cheapest 77'' OLED you can (probably the C1). Install it, love it, use it, check for uniformity issues and banding. If you don't have any. move onto next component of upgrade cycle.

AVR and amplification wise, you're spending A LOT of money on an AVR and amplification whilst not contemplating upgrading your current speakers. I'd be very motivated to explore other speakers first, before amplification and an AVR. An AVR is needed, amplification is great to get the most out of your speakers but I think for sound, your speakers are going to be the most important component; and if you've not upgraded them (if you wanted to) whilst smacking down £15k, its a hard pill to swallow.

There are plenty of last generation AVRs which will do 95% of what you'll need outside of HDMI 2.1 (which everyone is struggling with) so I'd be tempted to go with one of them rather than become a BETA tester for Anthem, Arcam et al. The other option is Marantz, which is safer but I find D&M are simply just not as good re: sound quality.

Amplification wise - again, I'd think its better to go cheap first. Learn and love the trade and process and then make educated decisions on what needs upgrading in YOUR system. Amplification second hand is not that expensive if you time the right deals and in all honesty, I think its probably low-ish on the priority list.

Thats my personal opinion but good luck, whichever route you go down.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
@gibbsy I don't use my Denon for stereo music, multi channel SACD, DVD-A or blu ray only. I have a Rega Elicit-R with HT by-pass hooked up to the Denon into which my stereo SACD player is linked. Simply do not like AV amps for stereo music.

Can't claim to have investigated/auditioned in any detail - but this chimes with my limited experience. AVRs seem fine at background music levels but sound harsh to my ears at higher levels. Thats why I have a MF M2si 'cos it has HT bypass so intend to try that with the Marantz. I also got it (cheap, used and off fleabay) to give me some sort of reference of a modern amps sound. If this does result in a decent sound out of the Silvers (well it might, don't know 'til I try) then the obvious next destination is an 1120 which is still the destination 'cos of RP.


All this has been provoked by my analogue kit unboxing and wanted to identify what to keep and what to move on. The problem - not really it will be fun and very informative - is that I have so many possible combinations - not including all the stuff not yet mentioned - that it could take years ! I'm never going to get bored but crawling around on floor at the back of kit gets my knees objecting and let's not mention the difficulty of getting up !

Finally given the processing and 7+++ power amps, logically the spend on the amps has to effectively be budget tier - until you spend some very serious money.
 
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DrH

Well-known Member
Running 2 systems for music and movies sounds like a great idea.
I simply don’t have room for both so the Marantz AVR it is.
Bear this in mind for me at least.
The UHD player has a superb analogue output stage.
My Vinyl uses external phono stage.
So I am not using the AVR’s DAC’s
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
I simply don’t have room for both so the Marantz AVR it isYes, I'm lucky to have plenty space. But there's way round this using an extra good quality stereo amp.
It's probably nothing to do with the AVRs DAC - it is almost certainly good enough. It's the AVR amps that will at best lower tier 'cos there's so many of them.

For example the Rega io £400 is a very good and pretty much the cheapest budget stereo amp. Your SR6013 has 9 amps. 9X £400 /2 = £1800 just for the amps, then there's the cost of all the processing - so lets say about £500 covers the preamp the DAC loads of sockets etc.

RRP of SR6013 is £1299 so less £500 = £800 for amps or less than £90 per amp
A decent budget basic amp is say £300 a channel, midrange £500 etc And the amp @gibbsy uses is about £800 a channel.

There's a way round this using an extra good quality stereo amp.

The AVR needs pre-out and stereo amp needs a HT Bypass function or a full tape loop.

Connect the music sources into the extra stereo amp, the AV sources into the AVR.

Connect the L&R front speakers to the stereo amp and the AVR L&R pre-out to the HT bypass on the stereo amp.

Et Voila ! Music through the stereo amp but also in AV L&R still driven by stereo sound.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
It's probably nothing to do with the AVRs DAC - it is almost certainly good enough. It's the AVR amps that will at best lower tier 'cos there's so many of them.

For example the Rega io £400 is a very good and pretty much the cheapest budget stereo amp. Your SR6013 has 9 amps. 9X £400 /2 = £1800 just for the amps, then there's the cost of all the processing - so lets say about £500 covers the preamp the DAC loads of sockets etc.

RRP of SR6013 is £1299 so less £500 = £800 for amps or less than £90 per amp
A decent budget basic amp is say £300 a channel, midrange £500 etc And the amp @gibbsy uses is about £800 a channel.

There's a way round this using an extra good quality stereo amp.

The AVR needs pre-out and stereo amp needs a HT Bypass function or a full tape loop.

Connect the music sources into the extra stereo amp, the AV sources into the AVR.

Connect the L&R front speakers to the stereo amp and the AVR L&R pre-out to the HT bypass on the stereo amp.

Et Voila ! Music through the stereo amp but also in AV L&R still driven by stereo sound.


You don't need a stereo amp with HT bypass, it helps but it is not essential. You can just connect pre out from your AVR into any standard line level input, and set volume on the stereo amp (mark it) to 12 o clock.

As for tape loop not sure about that.
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
You don't need a stereo amp with HT bypass, it helps but it is not essential. You can just connect pre out from your AVR into any standard line level input, and set volume on the stereo amp (mark it) to 12 o clock.

As for tape loop not sure about that.
Yes, what you're saying is possible (if one understands what one's doing) but you haven't specified the other steps involved or the disadvantages of doing it like this.

For people with limited technical knowledge I think what I've outlined would be the consensus way to do it.
 

Jester1066

Well-known Member
You don't need a stereo amp with HT bypass, it helps but it is not essential. You can just connect pre out from your AVR into any standard line level input, and set volume on the stereo amp (mark it) to 12 o clock.
Further to @Baron Mole comment (which I agree with). If you have a system used by multiple users, this method can create its own issues. All it would take is for someone to forget to return the stereo amp to its "default 12 o'clock" and (depending on listening levels), there's the potential to blow a speaker! Admittedly, this would be very rare, but it's still a possibility imo.

The HT bypass option removes this potential issue, so is worth the extra expense in my book...

But as always in this game. There are indeed numerous ways to - as they say - "skin a cat" 👍🏼
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
yeah there's that, but at 12 o clock it won't blow my speakers, it'll be quite loud, but not at 100%.

Only advised for sole owner really.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Further to @Baron Mole comment (which I agree with). If you have a system used by multiple users, this method can create its own issues. All it would take is for someone to forget to return the stereo amp to its "default 12 o'clock" and (depending on listening levels), there's the potential to blow a speaker! Admittedly, this would be very rare, but it's still a possibility imo.

The HT bypass option removes this potential issue, so is worth the extra expense in my book...

But as always in this game. There are indeed numerous ways to - as they say - "skin a cat" 👍🏼

FYI just asked this question so hopefully get way around of lack of HT bypass

 

Mr Wolf

Well-known Member
This gives me some hope though. :)

I've just had the tape measure out and roughly speaking from back to front (seat to TV) the room currently breaks down like this

0-4 feet MLP (settee is 3.5 feet and there is a 6" gap)
4-18 feet free space (so 14' of space)
19-21 feet TV and front speakers (actually 19-20' TV stand and 1' gap for all the wires and cables)

The brick fireplace is 2' wide and 5.5' in length (looking back to front). There is a 7.5' gap from the end of the fireplace to the outside wall.

So MLP is currently 14 feet from the speakers.
I could move that up a maximum of 2 feet so its touching the 3 seater settee and its now 12 feet from the speakers.
I then have a 2 foot or 2.5' gap from the back of the settee to the rear wall. Probably still not enough for ideal surround speaker placement but better than before?

Oh and probably academic but the front speakers are 7' apart. They are equidistant from the the centre speaker. 2.5' each depending on where you measure from.
Turning back to our man from Barnsley's situation for a moment.

According to my maths, closing the MLP to front speaker distance from 14' to 12' would increase the listener's L/R spread angle from 28° to 32° which, while an improvement, is still massively short of the target 44-60° range set by Dolby (which from experience I really believe in).

It is also goes without saying that at that distance you won't be benefitting from the extra pixelation that a 4K image brings if you're using a TV. At a 12' distance, for 4K images THX's 0.835 standard ratio would require a 120" screen. This is a fairly extreme standard but you get the idea.

That said, if the fireplace stays then this is probably the best you can do to make the best out of a bad situation.
 

DrH

Well-known Member
interesting comments

i doubt that It does not work out simply by dividing the price of a multichannel amp by a stereo amp to assess the quality of it.
Read and watch some videos of Marantz audio engineers and you can see that they strive from the SR series upwards for good quality stereo.

I have had a Marantz stereo amp a predecessor to the PM6007 a PM6003 I think.
This was in my lounge not my “room”
I liked the sound and hence why I brought into the Marantz AVR.

I am also a HiFi heretic as I have been using stand mounts with a sub for years,
With almost most stereo amps this is not possible.

If I understand my electronics probably then a lower tier amp such as my old PM6003 or the Rega brio uses a smaller transformer and is limited in power output, I know there is more too it than that, different capacitors and output transistors etc.

A more powerful amp will use a larger transformer. AVR’s need to give out more power to run a lot of speakers. They then have a larger transformer.

My Kef R’s need a lot of current. The Marantz SR series and above are a high current design. Using the sub as well lightens the load.
 
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rccarguy2

Well-known Member
I am also a HiFi heretic as I have been using stand mounts with a sub for years,
With almost most stereo amps this is not possible.

Yes it is. Dead easy

Either use l/r pre outs from a stereo amp into a sub
or use high level speaker cable from amp to sub
or use high level speaker cable from amp to sub then onto sub (high pass)
or use line level high pass between stereo pre and stereo power (Outlaw ICBM-1)
Or use line level high pass between stereo pre and sub (svs sb12+) then onto power or sub is after power
or use dedicated subwoofer pre out, some stereo amps have this
 
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DrH

Well-known Member
Yes it is. Dead easy

Either use l/r pre outs from a stereo amp into a sub
or use high level speaker cable from amp to sub
or use high level speaker cable from amp to sub then onto sub (high pass)
or use line level high pass between stereo pre and stereo power (Outlaw ICBM-1)
or use dedicated subwoofer pre out, some stereo amps have this
With the high level connection how do you stop full range going to the main speakers?
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
za ll
With the high level connection how do you stop full range going to the main speakers?

You don't but full range to speakers has been done for decades (full range to sub and speakers)

Other options would to use high level high pass like how cheap pc speakers do it, amp to sub then onto speakers.. ie svs sb12+ has that feature.

Best method would be outlaw icbm-1 which I have. Stereo pre into icbm-1 then onto poweramps which is filtered below the user set ie 80hz so amps only receive 80hz plus and sub receives sub 80hz
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
get way around of lack of HT bypass
:offtopic: The effect of HT bypass is that the input to the amp from the AVR bypasses the stereo amps preamp section and goes directly to the power amps. What you are doing is putting the signal from the AVR back through the preamp.

:offtopic:HT Bypass only got on this thread by me using the word - HT bypass is not what this thread is about

:offtopic: If you want to learn about HT Bypass there's plenty of sources or start your own thread so please stop posting on this one.
 
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rccarguy2

Well-known Member
:offtopic: The effect of HT bypass is that the input from the AVR bypasses the stereo amps preamp section and goes directly to the power amps. What you are doing is putting the signal from the AVR back through the preamp.

:offtopic:HT Bypass only got on this thread by me using the word - HT bypass is not what this thread is about

:offtopic: If you want to learn about HT Bypass there's plenty of sources or start your own thread so please stop posting on this one.

I know what HT bypass is, I've used it in the past, I've been into audio for 20 yeats there are workaround which aren't ideal, but allows you to use normal amp in a HT system if understanding about preset volume level
 

DrH

Well-known Member
A lot of these latest posts maybe off topic from the original post.
It is good to have some different opinions though even if we wander off on tangents
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
interesting comments
I was simply using the numbers to illustrate a point, and I don't know if you saw in the posts higher up I have a Marantz AVR probably of a similar spec to you.

If you are happy with your set up that's great - the only person who has to like your system is you.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
It's probably nothing to do with the AVRs DAC - it is almost certainly good enough. It's the AVR amps that will at best lower tier 'cos there's so many of them.

For example the Rega io £400 is a very good and pretty much the cheapest budget stereo amp. Your SR6013 has 9 amps. 9X £400 /2 = £1800 just for the amps, then there's the cost of all the processing - so lets say about £500 covers the preamp the DAC loads of sockets etc.

RRP of SR6013 is £1299 so less £500 = £800 for amps or less than £90 per amp
A decent budget basic amp is say £300 a channel, midrange £500 etc And the amp @gibbsy uses is about £800 a channel.

There's a way round this using an extra good quality stereo amp.

The AVR needs pre-out and stereo amp needs a HT Bypass function or a full tape loop.

Connect the music sources into the extra stereo amp, the AV sources into the AVR.

Connect the L&R front speakers to the stereo amp and the AVR L&R pre-out to the HT bypass on the stereo amp.

Et Voila ! Music through the stereo amp but also in AV L&R still driven by stereo sound.

Just be carefull not to push too loud with your M2Si as it´s not as powerfull as your Marantz for 2ch listening! Pre-amp side was high quality, but the amp lacks juice.

66w for 2ch - 8ohm at rated low distortion. 75w max power to high 1% THD+N for 8ohm

80w for 2ch - 4ohm at rated distortion, protection limited. Max power 94w/ch higher 0,1% distortion. Peak power 155w/ch 4ohm with high 1% distortion.


for comparison your Marantz SR601x

123w for 2ch - 8ohm at rated (low) distortion.

156w for 2ch - 4ohm at rated distortion. Max power 4ohm 185w/ch. Peak power 4ohm 249w/ch.


Av-receiver benefits from bass management and then you have the MultEQ XT32 hopefully with app support so you can limit the correction to room transit frequency just like Floyd Toole recommends as most correction is beneficial below room transit frequency. Correcting full range can be hit or miss. Naturally something like Room Perfect does that better, but XT32 can do fine job for the most problematic room modes when correction is limited. This will allow you to listen music/movies so the speakers "natural sound" is kept unchanged. Add the benefit of larger powersupply for av-receiver and you see why some people feel av-receiver is not that bad for music listening. Quite the opposite.

index.php
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
Just be carefull not to push too loud with your M2Si as it´s not as powerfull as your Marantz for 2ch listening! Pre-amp side was high quality, but the amp lacks juice.
:offtopic: Thank you for the warning.

However as you know specs can be presented in different ways to make different and frequently misleading claims and in my experience it's the AV amp manufacturers who do this most often.

@Gasp3621 said ;-why some people feel av-receiver is not that bad for music listening. Quite the opposite. And thats's their opinion which is fine.

The point is that I don't like the sound from the Marantz for music. And that's my opinion based actual listening not specs.

I'm sure you know that watts are not full story - the ability to drive speakers is a combination of voltage and current and the varying impedance of the speakers at different frequencies.

EDIT - of course you know this, you've quoted Floyd Toole so you must have read his book which is now on the 3rd edition.

Here's part of Ed Selly's review:-

Furthermore, there’s another figure lurking in the specifications that is worthy of note. The M2si is able to swing 25 amps peak to peak. Again, this is a little meaningless in abstract so it needs context. The recently reviewed Audiolab 6000A Play, under the same conditions can swing 9 amps (and I’m not singling the 6000A Play out either - it’s a very good amp - it’s simply that Audiolab also publishes this figure where many other companies do not). Why does this matter? This measurement, more than available power, is the one that gives the best indicator of how an amp will drive a pair of speakers. It means that the M2si might not blow you away with its headline output but, when all its feature laden rivals are beginning to wilt a little, it’s just getting started.
Musical Fidelity M2si Integrated Amplifier Review

Here's a quote from Paul Miller's test results in Hifi News:-

Lab Report
Time was when Musical Fidelity's integrated amps would be specified a little close to the wind, so when I saw '76W/8ohm' and '137W/4ohm' quoted in the M2si's press release (and on many 'hi-fi' websites) I raised an eyebrow. So it was refreshing to see a more measured view taken in the M2si's user manual where the power output is revised down to '60W/8ohm'. In practice the M2si delivers 2x83W/8ohm and 2x115W/4ohm with 118W/201W into 8/4ohm under dynamic conditions, limited to 169W/96W into 2/1ohm by electronic protection [see Graph 1, below]. So this is a beefy enough amplifier for most likely sub-£1k partnering speakers, the A-wtd S/N ratio an 'industry average' 86dB (re. 0dBW) and distortion within 0.002% over the first 25W of its range to 0.004% up to the rated 60W (all 1kHz). Distortion does not increase excessively with frequency – just 0.01% at 10W/20kHz – while the response is flat to within ±0.18dB from 20Hz-20kHz, rolling away to –3.4dB/100kHz.


Continuous power (<1% THD, 8/4ohm)83W / 115W
Dynamic power (<1% THD, 8/4/2/1ohm)118W / 201W / 169W / 96W
Musical Fidelity M2scd/M2si CD Player/Amplifier

A few other reviews

Musical Fidelity M2SCD & M2SI Review

https://www.exclusiveaudio.gr/site/...-M2Si-HFC_446_GT_Intergrated_Amps_Reprint.pdf

I am aware of the various room correction systems and would of course run Audessy with the M2si running the LR speakers using the afore mentioned HT bypass mode.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
:offtopic: Thank you for the warning.

However as you know specs can be presented in different ways to make different and frequently misleading claims and in my experience it's the AV amp manufacturers who do this most often.

@Gasp3621 said ;-why some people feel av-receiver is not that bad for music listening. Quite the opposite. And thats's their opinion which is fine.

The point is that I don't like the sound from the Marantz for music. And that's my opinion based actual listening not specs.

I'm sure you know that watts are not full story - the ability to drive speakers is a combination of voltage and current and the varying impedance of the speakers at different frequencies.

EDIT - of course you know this, you've quoted Floyd Toole so you must have read his book which is now on the 3rd edition.

Here's part of Ed Selly's review:-

Furthermore, there’s another figure lurking in the specifications that is worthy of note. The M2si is able to swing 25 amps peak to peak. Again, this is a little meaningless in abstract so it needs context. The recently reviewed Audiolab 6000A Play, under the same conditions can swing 9 amps (and I’m not singling the 6000A Play out either - it’s a very good amp - it’s simply that Audiolab also publishes this figure where many other companies do not). Why does this matter? This measurement, more than available power, is the one that gives the best indicator of how an amp will drive a pair of speakers. It means that the M2si might not blow you away with its headline output but, when all its feature laden rivals are beginning to wilt a little, it’s just getting started.
Musical Fidelity M2si Integrated Amplifier Review

Here's a quote from Paul Miller's test results in Hifi News:-

Lab Report
Time was when Musical Fidelity's integrated amps would be specified a little close to the wind, so when I saw '76W/8ohm' and '137W/4ohm' quoted in the M2si's press release (and on many 'hi-fi' websites) I raised an eyebrow. So it was refreshing to see a more measured view taken in the M2si's user manual where the power output is revised down to '60W/8ohm'. In practice the M2si delivers 2x83W/8ohm and 2x115W/4ohm with 118W/201W into 8/4ohm under dynamic conditions, limited to 169W/96W into 2/1ohm by electronic protection [see Graph 1, below]. So this is a beefy enough amplifier for most likely sub-£1k partnering speakers, the A-wtd S/N ratio an 'industry average' 86dB (re. 0dBW) and distortion within 0.002% over the first 25W of its range to 0.004% up to the rated 60W (all 1kHz). Distortion does not increase excessively with frequency – just 0.01% at 10W/20kHz – while the response is flat to within ±0.18dB from 20Hz-20kHz, rolling away to –3.4dB/100kHz.


Continuous power (<1% THD, 8/4ohm)83W / 115W
Dynamic power (<1% THD, 8/4/2/1ohm)118W / 201W / 169W / 96W
Musical Fidelity M2scd/M2si CD Player/Amplifier

A few other reviews

Musical Fidelity M2SCD & M2SI Review

https://www.exclusiveaudio.gr/site/...-M2Si-HFC_446_GT_Intergrated_Amps_Reprint.pdf

I am aware of the various room correction systems and would of course run Audessy with the M2si running the LR speakers using the afore mentioned HT bypass mode.

No i haven´t read the book sadly, but he quotes from he`s books are mentioned in many forums.

Yes the point was and still is that Marantz is more powerfull than the MF amp due to large powersupply and big capacitors cause it has to power 9channels, but of course you will use the equipment which you feel sounds best with your gear. I don´t know have you listened the Marantz in Pure direct mode always with music or in the Stereo mode and using Audussey Flat curve (Reference is for movies and rolls off high frequencies), limiting the correction to 300hz and put the midrange compensation off. You would also have subwoofer equalization if you have sub for music. Another must have feature!

Could it be partly expectation bias as you have been told stereo amp sounds better than receiver then you already have kinda made your mind as you are thinking it must sound better telling it your brain? Would you be able to pick the MF stereo amp 10times over Marantz receiver if you were to listen both blindly? :)

You don´t need to answer. Enjoy what you have! 😎
 

Baron Mole

Active Member
No i haven´t read the book sadly, but he quotes from he`s books are mentioned in many forums.

Yes the point was and still is that Marantz is more powerfull than the MF amp due to large powersupply and big capacitors cause it has to power 9channels, but of course you will use the equipment which you feel sounds best with your gear. I don´t know have you listened the Marantz in Pure direct mode always with music or in the Stereo mode and using Audussey Flat curve (Reference is for movies and rolls off high frequencies), limiting the correction to 300hz and put the midrange compensation off. You would also have subwoofer equalization if you have sub for music. Another must have feature!

Could it be partly expectation bias as you have been told stereo amp sounds better than receiver then you already have kinda made your mind as you are thinking it must sound better telling it your brain? Would you be able to pick the MF stereo amp 10times over Marantz receiver if you were to listen both blindly? :)

You don´t need to answer. Enjoy what you have!

??????????????????????????????

:offtopic: I think you may have got confused about who I am and the equipment I have. I've been involved in hifi both professionally and personally for over 50 years.

I've owned the Marantz since 2015 and before that had a Yamaha DSP A-1 which was £2k in about 1998. In addition just in this thread there is mention a few items of kit I still own.

My current AV setup includes the MA Silver 200 (6TH gen) 7.1 system. The sub is the MA Silver W-12 £1k. It has DSP which is run before using Audessy. Audessy is then run for the whole AV system.

As to expection bias I said quite clearly that what I was saying was based on my personal experience of listening. NOT on some reading of theoretical manufacturers specs.
And YES I can tell which is which simply by listening.

I have demonstrated in my previous post with references that the M2si is not as you claim 'lacking juice'. Please provide the equivalent current capacity of the Marantz from a reliable source such a reputable test, if you wish to provide proof the Marantz is more powerful than the M2si.

@Gasp3621 said;- Yes the point was and still is that Marantz is more powerfull than the MF amp due to large powersupply and big capacitors

So what are the power supply specifications and total capacitance figures you are quoting for the Marantz ?

Your statement reads like some hifi myth to me.

I already own the M2si.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
??????????????????????????????

:offtopic: I think you may have got confused about who I am and the equipment I have. I've been involved in hifi both professionally and personally for over 50 years.

I've owned the Marantz since 2015 and before that had a Yamaha DSP A-1 which was £2k in about 1998. In addition just in this thread there is mention a few items of kit I still own.

My current AV setup includes the MA Silver 200 (6TH gen) 7.1 system. The sub is the MA Silver W-12 £1k. It has DSP which is run before using Audessy. Audessy is then run for the whole AV system.

As to expection bias I said quite clearly that what I was saying was based on my personal experience of listening. NOT on some reading of theoretical manufacturers specs.
And YES I can tell which is which simply by listening.

I have demonstrated in my previous post with references that the M2si is not as you claim 'lacking juice'. Please provide the equivalent current capacity of the Marantz from a reliable source such a reputable test, if you wish to provide proof the Marantz is more powerful than the M2si.

I already own the M2si.

It may not lack power depending of usage, but it`s not really powerfull either. And Marantz is the more powerfull choice which shouldn`t come as suprise, but i´m not going to argue which sounds better. It was meant just a sidenote cool down buddy. :)

Both units has been measured using AP, Audio Precision equipment which i believe is the choice of most people in this industry. The amplifier power measurements are lower when scroll bit down:


 

Baron Mole

Active Member
It may not lack power depending of usage, but it`s not really powerfull either. And Marantz is the more powerfull choice which shouldn`t come as suprise, but i´m not going to argue which sounds better. It was meant just a sidenote cool down buddy. :)

Both units has been measured using AP, Audio Precision equipment which i believe is the choice of most people in this industry. The amplifier power measurements are lower when scroll bit down:

I :offtopic: 've looked at this and you're not comparing apples with apples.

The specific Marantz mentioned in this post is the SR6013, the figures you are using are for the SR6014.

I said my Marantz was similar but it is the 2014 model SR6008.

Here's a quote from the Marantz review you've used on ASR
Conclusions
Marantz takes one of the best AVRs we have tested, the Denon AVR-X3600H and reduces its performance into mediocrity in many areas. It seems that they are following audiophile fads, ignoring good engineering and proper audio research and science. I understand the need for differentiation but for heaven's sake, please don't sacrifice performance for it. Make the chassis out of gold or something. But please leave the active circuits alone. You have a good platform. Please don't ruin it this way.

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Marantz SR6014.


There are no figures quoted in either review for the current capacity. Mention is made in the review of the M2si about the fierce protection circuits causing problems with Amir's usual (and only half the story) method of testing power.

All this is irrevellent as it's the sound that matters, not some top trumps spec fest.

There are no mentions in the reviews of the power supply current delivery capacity or the total capacitance available. I do not intend to reply further.

@Gasp3621 said :- No i haven´t read the book sadly, but he quotes from he`s books are mentioned in many forums.

Can I suggest that you read the book before engaging in an argument with someone who has ?
 
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