Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Zag, Mar 16, 2006.
If you own an HS60 please vote and lets see how the results turn out.
Never seen VB on mine even when people have told me what to play and where to look. I'm happy to provide pics if people want to compare shot of VB.
i wont vote cause i aint got one, but my hs50 certainly aint got any
None on mine. My AE500 had mild VB, so I know what it looks like !
My previous HS50 had a little VB, and my current HS60 also has a little VB (slightly less than the HS50).
It's not visible most of the time and on most movies. As far as I can see, it appears that the VB is mostly on the green panel (in the HS50 was the same). On an HTPC it's easy to spot it, using any paint-like program and filling a large area with pure red, then blue, then green. On red and blue I can't see any VB, but on the green pic it's easily visible.
There are some items on the service menu that make VB disappear, but they affect other stuff, like messing with color balance or producing scanline effects, so I didn't find a "final" solution to eliminate it completely.
Anyway, as I said, my HS60's VB is not visible most of the time, so it's not a big problem. I demo'd a panny AE700 which had VB, and it was much (much!) more of an issue.
Of course, I'd go the DLP route if it weren't for the rainbows (can't stand it) and price of 3-chip's.
Me too but recent DLP experiences has put me off, plus DLP manufacturers don't seem to be addressing the problem either. Colour wheel speed and no of segments don't seem to be advancing.
LCD C2 Fine or SXRD is the future for me unless DLP can pull their fingers out.
The Ruby really did catch them napping...
If vertical banding is lines a few pixels in width (maybe 10) that are slightly darker than the rest of the picture and run the length of the screen, then yes I have it. It's most noticeable in orangish tones, including flesh tones on my Aussie HS-60.
DaveHT, what service level tweaks have you done that effected the VB?
Yes, by your description, that seems to be VB.
The settings I'm referring to are on the "panel driver" svc menu. If you drive the green panel offset higher, you'll see VB disappear, but you'll also get a very green-biased picture (of course). Also, if you try to set the v common setting for green higher, you'll also see the VB disappear, but you'll get a green-biased picture again, and you'll see another LCD artifact, which is the scanline-effect (visible scanlines when you move your eyes or the picture moves, like you'd see in a CRT). BTW, this v common setting helped me getting rid of a minor scanline-effect I had on my unit, by adjusting the value for green very slightly, by a value of +/-1 or +/- 2 (this worked on my previous HS50 too). I previously thought this effect was caused by SDE, but it is not.
Finally, I repeat what I said before: my unit's VB is slight and invisible on most movie scenes. On most movies I don't see it ever, even if I go looking for it (worst thing you can do, btw ). I wish I could eliminate it, of course, but thats just the perfectionist in me. Also, my major complaint with the HS50/60 projectors is the color uniformity/shading issues, more than VB. These complaints, however, are all minor. Overall, Im very happy with my HS60. Best picture Ive seen for the price.
40% of HS60s have Vertical Banding.
(Small sample size I know but the indications aren't good)
Well done Sony.
Buyer beware, make sure this QA issue with the HS60 doesn't bother you because the chances are fairly high that you'll get one with it.
I wouldn't buy one without a full VB and Pixel check.
If your conclusions make you happy, you're welcome to them, but it's wildly inaccurate - you can't say that 60% of HS60s have VB on the basis of this poll.
You acknowledge that the sample is small - and indeed it is, 15 people voted, but that's only the start of the problem............ unless you voted yourself, you have no way of knowing whether any of the voters own HS60s in the first place....... Assuming that they do own HS60s, all your poll shows is that, out of the people who frequent or have passed through the forums in the last week or so, 15 voted in your poll, and of those, 9 see no VB, 3 see it slightly and 3 see it clearly.
To base a blanket statement about all HS60s on those findings is naive, to say the least.
I don't think you'll have a difficulty find dealer who will do pixel checks, but I have yet to find one who will guarantee an absence of VB.
If an absolute guarantee of no VB is a prerequisite, then you should be looking for a DLP projector - but then you have to deal with dlp's little foibles. If you want a projector with zero mis-convergence, no dead pixels, zero VB, no rainbows, no posterisation, no dithering, then you're looking for a perfect digital projector, and no one makes one of those yet.
Try CRT, though, that should do the trick.
Of the three that see VB clearly can I ask one to post a Screen shot.
Good post and I must agree with you. Even my previous HS50 had VB, and it had more than my HS60. Also, I've read some time ago about some complaints of VB on the HS50, which means this doesn't seem to be a particular issue with the new model. I also must say that I haven't seen any LCD projector without VB, including the HS10 and models from panasonic, sanyo and hitachi (but on these models the VB was much more of an issue!).
No perfect pj at any price point, I'm affraid. I also haven't seen a single 1-chip DLP without me and my girlfriend seeing rainbows, including recent models from infocus, themescene/optoma, nec, sim2, barco and others. 3-chip DLP is also not perfect, but it's the best I've seen, except... for the price! Even your suggestion to go with CRT - forget it! How about convergence, brightness and space to put the thing?
I haven't seen Zag's HS60 - maybe he got a really bad unit, or maybe he's really picky about VB and/or he's constantly looking for it?
Anyway, Zag, an honest advice (and no offence to you whatsoever!), if you tolerate/don't see DLP rainbows and/or posterization, do yourself a favour and sell/exchange your HS60 with a DLP pj. You'll be much happier, if you can't tolerate LCD's limitations. Myself and others, prefer a tiny little bit of VB that only we can see on some brief scenes of some selected movies , than to constantly see rainbows and posterization effects of 1-chip DLPs. I'm sensible to both technologies limitations/artifacts, and choose to live with LCD, because it bothers me less. I had to accept that or to continue to see movies on a (comparatively) small plasma/CRT/LCD TV screen... There's always a tradeoff.
Bottom line, I'm having a blast watching movies and my gf is also very happy with the pj...
Zag's already been there, done that. He's had a Z4 and HC3000 and had issues with them both. With hindsight, he should have kept the Z4. It was sharp, VB free and had brightness to spare. Add a ND2 filter and the black level would equal the HC3000 and the HS60, and ROnes tweaks would increase the CR to acceptable levels.
It's tough trying to find a 'budget' PJ that's perfect !!
I agree with what you're saying here however, I think it is reasonable to suggest that a significant number of HS60s are affected by VB (incidently, in poor old Zag's defence, you could have interpreted his post in the context of this thread (and poll) as... while acknowledging the small sample size, the poll indicates that 40% of HS60s have VB). Hopefully, no-one would be naive enough to make the leap of faith that this poll is gospel truth but personally (and this is of course a matter of judgement) I think it is fair to say that a significant number of HS60s are affected. In any event, I believe these forums are about speculation as much as anything else. How much fun would it be if no-one ever jumped to any conclusions
Agreed of course it is, for a statistically representative sample size you'd need at least 50 genuine votes. Just trying to prompt a bit of healthy discussion on the topic.
All I am highlighting is that VB could be a potential issue with the HS60 and of course it might not.
3 out of 5 demo units from cine4home had VB and the indications here, and they're only indications not scientific fact are that the early batches of HS60's may have a high incidence of VB.
Additionally the level of VB is also subjective what may be seen as annoying VB to one person may not even be noticed by another.
But who knows maybe I'm an Optoma rep and I did most of the VB votes myself.
My ex-HS50, bought new in November/2005 had a little VB (and more than my HS60). I had also demo'd two other HS50's (also new) in August and September/2005 which also had a little VB. This problem doesn't seem to be specific to "early batches of HS60's". Maybe the HS50 reviewed in cine4home was a good one. At that time they didn't test multiple units like they do now.
I think you're spot on with this comment. VB, like other artifacts, is sometimes a "personal fixation" , and that greatly amplifies what may be just an insignificant thing (there are exceptions, of course). But sometimes we should just sit back and enjoy the big picture, literally. I don't know why, but sometimes these threads remind me of a certain Monty Python's sketch about a dirty fork...
Had a good look at mine and I am in the very slight category. So not a big issue.
I tried a little experiment with a grey 0.8 high contrast screen sample, I had lying around. Given that my VB is slight it was hard to tell if it made any difference.
Just as a matter of interest has anybody tried using a grey screen material with LCD projectors. Is it likely to help reduce the effect, make no difference or make it worse?
Not tried a grey screen but I've borrowed a FLD filter from a mate. I'm going to give that a go sometime over the next few days. See if it helps to reduce the artifact.
If you want i could send a you sample, i could let you have the smaller sample it is A3 size.
Just wanted to add this (also in Zag's defence ) - I saw some movies recently and now I'm sure my HS60's VB is getting a bit worse than when the unit was new (and it's less than 100h yet). It's now more easy (almost too easy) to see it on bright scenes, and I'm sure it wasn't like this, because I looked hard for it in my initial tests with the projector. As I don't see any alternatives to the HS60 (and I don't think Sony would exchange my unit because of a slight VB), so I'll probably just have to live with it. I hope it doesn't get even worse, though. At its price, I still think the HS60 is the best pj for me, as DLP is not an option and any other LCD pj is the same lottery (VB, shading, convergence). This pj will have to do the trick until something better (probably other tech, maybe C2Fine or Bi:NA6) comes along or 3chip DLP gets cheaper (it has been too expensive for too long, but I don't see this changing anytime soon).
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