The GoT Series 8 SPOILER thread - enter at your own peril...

Discussion in 'Game of Thrones Forum' started by KyleS1, May 13, 2019.

  1. Stockholm

    Stockholm
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    It's possible that Drogon snapped too and was therefore beyond Dany's ability to bring to heel but if that's true it changes the tenor of the story in quite a significant manner, robbing a protagonist of agency at a critical juncture in the story, and needs to be conveyed on screen, preferably during the episode in question. Failure to do so massively dents the director's reputation and is evidence that he's a hack, which hasn't been the case so far in his career.

    Nah she's off her rocker that girl.
     
  2. doug56hl

    doug56hl
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    Fairly simple.
    You postulate that cold reaction to a death is a sign of a future tyrant especially when the one having the cold reaction is a Targaryen. Jon has twice had cold reactions to executions of former friends and brothers in the Night's Watch. Executions he has either done personally or ordered.

    Was he therefore displaying a sign he would become a tyrant? Executing someone for disobeying you and insulting you while doing so seems to be a bit of a personal reaction. Using fear to bring him into line would have worked as by that point janos is pleading for his life, asking for a 2nd chance and crying he's always had a hard life etc. A good leader would have spared him and given a warning that if you do that again you are for the chopping block.

    By contrast Daenyrys gives not only 2nd chances but third ones as well preceeded by a warning.
    So we have an employer who terminates a job contract (with lethal sanction) on first breach compared to one who follows the normal practice of giving a warning or two first.
    As do I to an assertion that showing a cold reaction to a death is a sign of a tyrant. If it's good enough for one Targaryen it's good enough for the other only remaining Targaryen.

    And proper evidence of future madness. Not said by you but a lot on the net are using this instance as an indication of this and why they always knew from the start that Daenrys would go mad.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  3. QuestShield

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    Yes it's very simple, she's a woman scorned, hence the mass deaths.
     
  4. QuestShield

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    The Imp had an certain understanding
    They were there to capture King's Landing
    But when the bells tolled surrender
    Dany went on a bender
    Now King's Landing is no longer standing
     
  5. Robothamster

    Robothamster
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    download_20190514_175155.jpg
     
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  6. doug56hl

    doug56hl
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    Her brother was the third Viserys in the Targaryon family. She could have named him after one of the other two who preceeded him...
     
  7. Robothamster

    Robothamster
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  8. doug56hl

    doug56hl
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    The director didn't write the episode. The writers did. There are lots of examples of good directors being let down by poor writing.

    I was giving an episode 6 prediction for a possible and reasonable Daenrys explanation as to why she burned Kings Landing. "Wasn't me gov, the dragon was out of control".
    Just like Jon will have to do for his army going on a rampage of rapeing, pillaging and murder in Kings Landing. "Wasn't me gov, the army was out of control".
    However I doubt it will actually happen as that ruins the madness arc the writers wanted to go for.

    Madness is a trope that in GOT is overused and frankly a bit obvious. What is breaking expectations when the expectation of many happens. Just as Cleganbowl was fanservice so is Daenrys rather than just burning the Red Keep instead burning Kings Landing. One could be considered a tactical/strategic action which unfortunately has collateral damage, the other is a sign of insanity/madness.

    Book fans have been the ones mostly calling the insanity line, TV viewers less so as there hasn't been any real sign of insanity in the TV series so far to base this on. The reasons for her state of mind i.e. loss of friends and 'children' is much more associated with depression than psychosis. Her appearance and actions prior to the bells are more indicative of depression than anything else. Off her food, looking distraught and disheveled. Yet all I'm reading is that the loss of those dear to her was the cause of her 'madness' along with her 'bad' genes.

    Ok I don't want to get into the Nature vs Nurture debate but madness isn't necessarily a result of inbreeding or genetics. The Royal families of Europe have many hundreds of years of mixing the same genes around and just look at them for how that turns out...
    The Ptolemies of Egypt also practiced brother/sister (and occasionally father/daughter) marriage for hundreds of years and while they did suffer from some genetic disorders, madness is not mentioned being one of them.

    As I've noted Jon Snow has rather coldly executed others with no 2nd chances. So for that matter did Rob Stark. Both usually falling into the goodie/sane camp. And I'd have to say Daenrys crucifying 163 slave masters for them doing the same to 163 children to give her a message (another sign I've seen mentioned of her pending 'insanity') is more justifiable than Jon Snow executing one of the Nights Watch for disobeying an order and insulting him while doing so. That he was also a coward is not the issue as that is not what he was executed for.

    TLDR: I'm not buying the screen writers madness plotline which failed to be properly developed enough to be believable imo.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  9. Stockholm

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    @doug56hl
    Of course but if it was the case that Drogon snapped then that would have been included in the script and it is the director's job to interpret the script and translate it for the visual medium. If Drogon snapped and was out of control then omitting that from what we see during the course of the episode betrays the writer's work either because the director thinks its bunkum or the director is incompetent and needs to go back to working on telenovelas or something.

    Although it's a carefully researched work it's still a work of fiction and abides by the rules it sets for itself, so the nature vs nurture issue may be relevant to real-life scenarios but doesn't necessarily apply here. In fact, the predisposition of the Targaryens to madness is frequently mentioned throughout the show, i.e. whenever a Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin... etc.

    Subverting expectations? A twist then. Well, twists don't necessarily improve a story or scene and neither do they always flatter the writer's talent (see Shyamalan's hackneyed work as an example) so the merit of their use lies in whether it enhances the story/character arc rather than it being something valuable in itself.
     
  10. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    No I didn't. I guessed from that specific scene that this specific character was being sent in that direction. You can tell just from a rudimentary understanding of character, storytelling, dialogue and cinematography. Dany is going for the throne at any cost.

    Not remotely analagous.

    Janos Slynt mean nothing to Jon in the first place, and he was clearly seething with anger at Slynt's insults. In fact he snarls at Slynt before swinging the sword. But he maintained his composure in front of the men and carried out his duty. There was nothing out of character in it. The penalty for disobeying the Lord Commander is death.

    Olly too was an act of duty. And this time Jon was clearly hurt and betrayed, and didn't feel particularly good about hanging him. Still not out of character. The penalty for treason is death.

    And neither Janos nor Olly were obstacles to Jon's authority. So there was no power to be gained for Jon in killing them.

    Watch that Dany scene again. Earlier in the same episode, she was trying to make a gift for her brother. She loves him, they grew up together. But something changes: she gets love and respect from the Dothraki, while her brother is a dangerous fool who noone respects. She realises he isn't destined for the Iron Throne, SHE is. At that moment her heart turns to stone. She doesn't even look away, she is utterly emotionless, remarking dispassionately 'he was no dragon'. This is sociopathic behaviour, and clearly meant to be taken as such.


    Wow you're really reaching now.

    Nope. Viserion was named for Dany's brother. She even says as much.
     
  11. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    I'm not making an assertion. I'm simply interpreting a scene.
     
  12. Robothamster

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    For those that don't accept that it was foreshadowed that Dany was heading towards destroying Kings Landing, no matter the cost, watch this :

    Daenerys Targaryen | Queen Of The Ashes
     
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  13. Robothamster

    Robothamster
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  14. Lights 31

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    I find it all a bit wierd how people are failing to accept what Dani did in the episode. It's been foreshadowed for ages now. Even Varys and Tyrion have been struggling to reign her impulses in and have expressed as such.

    She is basically the same as anyone else who have played the game of thrones, she wants the power at what ever the cost, same as Cersie, Little finger, Stanis, Renley and anyone else.
     
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  15. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    I watched the episode again and, despite the internet wailing, to be perfectly honest almost every character was true to themselves in this episode. Cersei was always fragile, Dany was always power hungry, Jaime was always devoted to Cersei, Jon and Sansa will always protect the innocent, Varys will always serve the greater good, Sandor will always come for his brother. And the episode was able to subvert expectations (inverting who we care about) without compromising those characters. Its a superb episode when you think about it.

    Some convenience here and there (Euron) and not sure about Tyrion snitching on Varys. But this is good stuff. Lena Headey and Emilia Clarke were both excellent.
     
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  16. Hillskill

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    Forgive me for being like a dog with a bone and not letting go...

    Arya just didn’t need to be in this episode. The hound didn’t need to have her by his side. The Jamie Euron fight was pointless and worthless because the two characters had zero points of tension. Euron was basically fan girling Jamie by the end of the fight. Laughable! Forget the fight and put Jamie in place of Arya. We see the attack through his eyes and perspective and he still get reunited with Cersei in the climax. Would have been far more plausible had they both perished in the flames and collapse in the city. Instead we got Arya and her plot armour. Ugh!
     
  17. doug56hl

    doug56hl
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    Maybe what changed was her brother selling her to the dothraki so he could get the thone at any cost, that he’d let her be raped by thousands of dothraki to get the throne ( in the book he says "I'd let his whole Khalisar fudge you if needs be sweet sister all forty thousand men and their horses too if that was what it took". While she loved him it was the groomed love of someone who has been abused. Also she has no one else left in the world before she was married off.

    His arrogance and disrepect for the Dothraki turn them against him. Becoming the wife of Khal Drogo gives Daenerys the strength to stand up to the brother who has abused her for years. With her new stength she sees her brother as he truely is through the eyes of the dothraki and that is someone who will never gain the throne, not least because he is pissing off his dothraki allies he needs to get it.

    Her brother threatens both her and her unborn child. Both while alone and then stupidly while drunk in front of Khal Drogo. Sufficient action to kill any love she may have left towards him. Maybe her comment was meant to show to the viewer the cold fury and hate she now felt towards him rather than, as you have interpreted, her sociopathic behaviour. Also Viserys was constantly saying he is a dragon, that proved he wasn't "Fire cannot kill a dragon".

    Being emotionless/dispassionate is not sociopathic behaviour. One indicator that is though is lack of empathy and conscience. Daenerys on hearing the pleas of someone whose child was killed by her dragons decides to lock the dragons up for the safety of the population. In that she displays both empathy and conscience as even though her action causes her grief at what she is doing to her 'children' she acts to save others without personal gain to herself.

    If she was a sociopath/psychopath the response would have been "Tough, I'm the ruler" and have her guards kill the father of the dead child for bothering her and/or to ease his pain/grief over his dead child. And then have the guards killed who let him into the chamber in the first place. That's what undisputed psychopath Ramsy Bolton would have done in that position.

    And speaking of Ramsey, Sansa is also emotionlesss and dispassionate when she kills him. She walks away with no expression until a slight smile forms at the end of the scene. By your sociopathology 'test' she also would seem to fall into the sociopath category from this scene...
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  18. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    Disagree she needed to be in it for her conversation with the Hound (great dialogue and a fitting end to their odd friendship). Her surviving I would attribute to the fact that she's wily, agile and resourceful and knew where to take shelter, while the other folk were just running around in a panic. Euron didn't amount to much, but it didn't really hurt the episode.
     
  19. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    I think you have misunderstood the characters and the scene. Yes Viserys did all those things to her and she still loved him. She took all his BS. However here, when the dynamics changed, she didn't need him anymore and watched him perish without emotion. No hatred, and no sympathy. Just cold indifference. When you feel that way about someone you love, I think a measure of sociopathy is evident.

    Also I refer you to the video posted above (#103).


    No, no, no. Again, I am talking about that specific scene, not a rule of thumb. And you're forgetting Sansa despised Ramsay. He meant less than nothing to her. If it were Bran? Or Rickon? Yes, we'd have cause think she has sociopathic tendencies if she watched them get torn apart by dogs without flinching- whatever they had done.
     
  20. Hillskill

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    Her and the hound could have had that convo anytime on that journey. She was only there for saving private Ryan 2. Would have been a more emotional and fitting end for Jamie and Cersei to have got through the carnage and then perished. She had her moment in Ep3 and maybe again in Ep6. Jamie and Cersei went out with a whimper. The two of them in place of Arya could have been a scene that went down in TV history imho.
     
  21. doug56hl

    doug56hl
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    You seem to be missing the dynamics of abuse and the 'love' it feeds on. Many abused women still 'love' the men who both emotionally and physically abuse them. Unless and until something changes to let them leave the abusive relationship. In this case something major changed due to Viserys selling her to the dothraki.
    o_O
    She was a child until recently under the control of an abusive elder relative. Whist the abuse wasn't fully sexual (she was worth too much as a virgin) it was everything else but. Once free from his control obviously she didn't need him any more. What did he offer? A home? Love? Affection? Caring for her as anything but something to sell and abuse?

    Leaping from indifference to her abusive brothers death to her being a sociopath is a leap too far imo. It is the abuser who is the sociopath, not the abused.
    By the way DSM-5 now classifies the condition as Anti-Social Personality Disorder. So much more innocuous sounding than sociopathy...

    "writers and showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have been rapidly building toward the idea that madness runs in the Targaryen family, and Daenerys Targaryen might at any moment snap and become a dangerous tyrant. They say they’ve been seeding that ending since season 1 when she reacted with cold calm to her husband Khal Drogo executing her brother Viserys in a ghastly fashion.....Failing to show compassion for the abuser who sold her into sexual slavery doesn’t exactly feel like the first clear early warning sign that she’s capable of burning an entire city to the ground out of sheer jilted spite"
    Game of Thrones’ showrunners discuss Daenerys’ rampage
    Using a video which barely mentions the point you are making re Viserys doesn't exactly back it up. But here are the clues the video says which 'shows' that she is going to be the mad queen.

    1. "Danny didn't second guess her decision to have Khal Drogo pour molten gold over Visery's head". Major, major fail. It wasn't her decision but Khal Drogo's after Viserys threatened his wife and child in front of him. She merely translated what the Khal said to her brother. At worst all you are laying here is sociopathology (ASPD) which as noted I don't agree with. Anyways not too serious as 1 in 5 CEOs are reckoned to be suffering from that (20 times higher than the general population). It apparently helps to run companies. Probably kingdoms too...;)
    2. Burning the witch. Appears justified by the circumstances (in the context of Essos). At that burning she frees all of the slaves held by what remains of the her dothraki.
    3. She sentenced people to die in a vault. That was qarth when the rulers of the city tried to steal her 'children'. She also had her baby dragons burn one of them too.
    4. Burn a slave owner. That would be the slave owner who was insulting her not knowing she spoke High Valerian. The slave owner who was going to cheat her. And by killing him she frees 10,000 Unsullied who then, when freed, choose to follow her.
    5. Burnt Dothraki warlords to death. Self defence innit.
    6. Burning Samwell Tarly's father and brother. As you noted and agreed with for Jon: Treason is punishable by death. Both Tarlys had committed treason against their leige lords, the Tyrells. They were offered the chance to live but refused the chance.
    7. Burning Varys. That would be the Varys who was plotting against her. Then there are the indications he was trying to poison her in episode 5. Double treason. Treason, as you noted, is punishable by death.

    Wow, the common feature here is fire. And she used fire to burn the city.
    QED she is a nutter and has showed hints of it time after time, except she didn't in the examples the video gave....

    Another 'clue' shown in the video suggested above was her bit of bombast and bigging herself up by claiming "we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground" when she was refused entrance to Qarth meaning that her followers would die of thirst soon afterwards. What the video failed to show is her next lines "Turn us away and we will burn your city first". Which got the attention of one of the Thirteen and thus her followers entrance into the city saving their lives.

    No, I was keeping that very much in mind. Both women were abused. Both woman went through their own form of catharsis. Both women in the end went "you are dead to me" to their abusers. Danny despised Viserys as did the Dothraki. It was that which opened her eyes and let her see him as he was.

    While she showed some concern when he appeared drunk where he shouldn't have been and sent Jorah to stop him he then raised a sword to Jorah who warned him "You'll get us all killed". Ignoring that Viserys then held the sword to her belly and threatened her and her child. I think that broke the final chains which held her to him and the blinkers fell fully away from her eyes.

    TLDR: I still dont agree with you for the reasons I note. The video you suggested I watch is a heap of cack with major errors of misrepresentation and 'facts'.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  22. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    At this point you're arguing black is white. It's exhausting now. My original point was that her reaction to Viserys was the first sign (one of many) that she would go on to become a ruthless conquerer who could turn her feelings off to collateral damage. And I was right: that played out exactly.

    If you didn't pick up on it, I dont know what to say.
     
  23. QuestShield

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    The signs were there throughout the series but there doesn't even have to be any sign really, if she has the nutty gene fostered by generations of incestuous family relations she can snap at any moment. Admittedly a longer season may have thrown up a few more mini-snaps before the tsunami-snap but hey ho.
     
  24. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    Not exactly 'treason' is it. She tried to conquer them, and they resisted. She invaded their lands and gave them an ultimatum: join me or die. Treason is when you betray an oath of allegiance, which they never gave her. As for the Tyrells, the Crown overrules Highgarden. Their allegiance was to the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, Cercei Lannister. The Tyrells had committed treason by openly rebelling against the crown.

    The Nightswatchmen had sworn a sacred vow to serve the watch and obey the Lord Commander. They disobeyed and betrayed the Lord Commander. That's treason.
     
  25. KyleS1

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    That is a great video. I think it really highlights the thought and effort that went into writing the stories and also transposing that to film in the first 6 series.
    Or maybe just to set her up to take out Dany in ep6...
     
  26. lucasisking

    lucasisking
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    Maybe, although I'm getting a bit wary (and weary) of predicting deaths. "i think x will kill y" seems to be all people care about and most of the time they get it wrong. Jon will kill the night king- Jaime will kill cersei etc. I'm more interested in the how and why than the who.

    The more I think about it, the happier I am about Jaime and Cersei's exit.
     
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  27. KyleS1

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    True. I'm just floating some ideas based on peoples comments about why something happened in an episode.
    I just want to see Ep6, so I can go back and binge watch S7 and S8 and pick up on stuff I missed.
     
  28. Hillskill

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    Lol! Could they possibly nerf Jon Snow’s character even more? He would have been completely pointless in this season if he doesn’t take centre stage along with Sansa and Tyrion next episode. Oh wait sorry...he screamed at a Dragon! Arya has no need to be in Ep 5 and the characters that should have been centre stage was largely meh. Cleganbowl was so so in my opinion.

    So yes Arya could off Danny in which case she ends up taking the lions share of screen time in 3 final episodes. She is a great character but that completely negates the expansive nature the show already mapped out for 7 seasons prior.

    Ep 5 was blind everyone with action. It’s writing has been on par with every other episode this season
     
  29. Robothamster

    Robothamster
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    I saw a clip of GRRM saying that the problem with writing a story where the Butler did it, but midway through the audience suss out the the Butler did it so you then add a twist so the Maid did it, is that all the foreshadowing is already there that the Butler did it, and it messes with the flow.

    I believe he was referring to Jon Snow vs the Knight King there.
     
  30. Robothamster

    Robothamster
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    upload_2019-5-15_9-48-37.png
    :D
     
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