The general "Have A Rant about DAPs" thread

HMHB

Distinguished Member
I'll start this thread off, then it's my fault :D
Have a rant about anything in here and lets keep the other thread as clear of rants as we can. Remember though, no swearing please !
Also remember that it's against forum rules to insult or abuse fellow forum members so let's keep the ranting about the DAPs.
 

thefair1973

Novice Member
The NW-HD1 is still the best looking player out there, and after the MP3 upgrade, is a hard act to follow. I feel that too many people buy ipods because they think everyone else has them so they must be the best. If people bought players based on what they actually have to offer as a package, I doubt the ipod would be market leader.
 

kevH

Novice Member
Well done John you took my advice then ? :thumbsup:
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
Yes, I thought it was a good idea...... in theory :rolleyes: :suicide:
 
S

shadowritten

Guest
Why oh why won't Sony just bite the bullet and give other music management software developers rights to use its ATRAC codec? Don't they realise that LOADS of people would actually use it if they knew how good it was (plus the obligatory gapless thing, of course)? I was completely against even TRYING it till I was forced to use the 'could-do-much-better' SonicStage - now I'm a convert! If it shipped with WMP, WinAmp, iTunes and others, and people could try it out in the privacy of their own homes, they'd switch like that <clicks fingers>. But instead, Sony take the arrogant view that if you want to use ATRAC, you gotta buy Sony (sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse). Imagine if Microsoft had taken such a short-sighted, dim-witted approach, huh ... ?
 
M

mick's cat

Guest
thefair1973 said:
The NW-HD1 is still the best looking player out there, and after the MP3 upgrade, is a hard act to follow. I feel that too many people buy ipods because they think everyone else has them so they must be the best. If people bought players based on what they actually have to offer as a package, I doubt the ipod would be market leader.
I don't think this is actually true. The iPod has many more features than the HD1 (or anything Sony has done yet). As it's Friday afternoon, and John has kindly opened this thread for rants, I thought I'd add to the fun and just compare features between the iPod 20Gb and the Sony NW-HD1, listing only those features that one or the other has and the other hasn't, or is better at:

iPod facts (not opinion)
* Easiest (of any DAP) to navigate and use
* FireWire connection for higher data transfer speeds, as well as USB
* Calendars
* Notes - such as map directions, news, weather
* Contact names, addresses, phone numbers etc
* Alarms/clock
* Games
* The best (of any DAP) software combination, in iTunes
* The best integrated legal download service for music
* The best integrated legal download service for audiobooks
* Use of many formats of music: AAC, protected AAC, audible, wav, as well as lossless (aiff and alac)
* Dock option for permanent connection and/or line out facilities
* Very wide range of third-party accessories
* Very wide range of third-party software to add extra features
* Colour screen
* Bigger screen
* Optional 60Gb higher capacity model
* Displays album art while playing music
* Displays photos
* AV port for external display of photos/album art on TV etc
* Can be used to give presentations

and finally, the only arguable point:

* More stylish - although, of course, I appreciate this is only my opinion



Sony NW-HD1 facts (again not opinion)
* Longer battery life
* Smaller
* Lighter
* Gapless playback



I might have missed a few things off, but I think this is pretty conclusive. If anyone wants me to add things to either list just let me know.
 
S

shadowritten

Guest
Mick's Cat: stop making me sad that, because I don't think Apple has got the fundamentals right (battery life, reliable HDD, SQ, gapless playback), I can't yet join the iPod owners club!!

Gonna go cry now ...
 

kevH

Novice Member
Along a similar theme shadow why dont they all make their respective players compatable with all codecs (an user friendly agreement) and then battle it out on the style,reliability,optional extras and quality. The user would then be happy ripping to his/her preferred choice and lets see which style then wins.

My personal view is that the Ipod wouldnt be as preffered without Itunes although i do accept that most users buy the Ipod without trialing it and just follow the hype.

Maybe im just living in cloud utopia tho.........
 
S

shadowritten

Guest
Definitely Kev. Let's have a level playing field: all DAPS using all codecs. It's absolutely ridiculous that the current situation has been allowed to grow up around we consumers. It should be OUR damned choice what to use on what, not the manufacturers'! If they don't think they can compete fairly, they should get out of the game!!
 

mrtbag

Novice Member
mick's cat said:
iPod facts (not opinion)
* Easiest (of any DAP) to navigate and use
Surely that's an IMO. I'm not saying you're wrong, but to others this may not be 'fact'.
 

kevH

Novice Member
Im just so disappointed with Sony in as much as i really rate their products generally yet they had a real chance with the launch of thier new products to take Apple's Ipod on "head on" this time and really missed the boat again :thumbsdow

The HD5 is a good product yet with all the flaws it has/had they still failed with the new ones to address these flaws. For gods sake isnt their someone in Sony who can sort Sonicstage out once an for all and put a stop to all the negative views on it in both forums like these and the press in general ? Whether they are percieved flaws in the software is irrelevant now as the perception in peoples minds is now there.

The new releases ie 6gb and 20gb for gods sake Sony that is "so last year" toshiba Ipod et all are way ahead, again whether you want 40gb 60gb or 80gb is now irrelevant its there in the market and selling. Colour screens and picture ability is here and selling where the hell is Sony still peddling small HD's just in a different style "box!"

Whether you like the Toshiba or the Cowon or the Ipod is by the by where is Sony's equivalent ??????????????????

Come on Sony get yer finger out and give us something that WILL take the Ipod on and lets have a real battle instead of the psuedo battle you think your waging yet Mr Apple is just laffin at you !!!! :thumbsup:
 
M

mick's cat

Guest
mrtbag said:
Surely that's an IMO. I'm not saying you're wrong, but to others this may not be 'fact'.
Hmm, I take your point, but no, I reckon this is fact. The iPod's ease of use and navigation is wholly down to the click wheel - which might not be to a particular person's preference, but it *is* easier.
 

thefair1973

Novice Member
The fact is though, Sony have got all the fundamentals right in having the best battery life (I think) and shrinking the size and weight to a bare minimum.
 

Ed Selley

AVF Reviewer
Vulnerability of displays- in the office two 'pods (one mini, one normal) my I-River and a Creative Labs, all have tonked displays and only with one of them can the owner actually remember the incident that caused it. I'd tolerate a couple of extra mm's thickness on units if the display could be isolated ala a G-Shock watch.
 
G

Grey Area

Guest
mick's cat said:
Hmm, I take your point, but no, I reckon this is fact. The iPod's ease of use and navigation is wholly down to the click wheel - which might not be to a particular person's preference, but it *is* easier.
Then we would have to define what we mean with "easier", if it is supposed to be objective and not dependent on people´s personal preferences.

I, for example, totally rely on good LCD-equipped remote controls for my portable audio devices. The player itself rests in a coat pocket, further protected by its case, and will rarely ever have to face the cruel outside world. ;) There is, as far as I know, no LCD-remote for the Ipod, so I would have to dig down into my coat pocked for the Ipod in its case, pull it out, open the case and use the player´s controls whenever I wanted to do anything with it. I do not think this is easy to use, in fact I find the Ipod far too cumbersome to bother.

Björn
 

IanPM

Novice Member
* Easiest (of any DAP) to navigate and use - opinion, the HD5 is easy too. I've never liked the navigation on the iPod. Its not intuitive to me at all.
* FireWire connection for higher data transfer speeds, as well as USB - Firewire is fine, but everything does USB2 so who needs it. HDD is slower than the bus speed is anyway.
* Calendars - Don't care, got one on my phone if I need it, auto syncs with my PC
* Notes - such as map directions, news, weather - Wow, who cares
* Contact names, addresses, phone numbers etc - Yeah, how wonderful, I've got a phone that does all this far better, and syncs automatically whenever I'm in bluetooth range of my PC
* Alarms/clock - Erm, don't care and this feature is so totally worthless its not true. An alarm, on something that needs headphones? Okay if you have a dock, but I have an Alarm clock that cost me 50p 15 years ago (Its a Sony)
* Games - I could care less. Oh wait, no I couldn't. I don't want games, I have them on my mobile and NEVER use them.
* The best (of any DAP) software combination, in iTunes - This is just wrong, iTunes is hiedous, and even though I've tried hundreds of times, I can't get used to it. Its not as good as Winamp.
* The best integrated legal download service for music - Don't care, don't use music stores
* The best integrated legal download service for audiobooks - Don't care, music stores not important to me, would rather buy CD's than risk loosing everything.
* Use of many formats of music: AAC, protected AAC, audible, wav, as well as lossless (aiff and alac) - True, again the HD5 should support FLAC and WAV if you ask me
* Dock option for permanent connection and/or line out facilities - Don't care about a dock, I have line out so a simple cable is all I need
* Very wide range of third-party accessories - True, but I don't need much more than a remote and headphones. So, not a selling point for me
* Very wide range of third-party software to add extra features - True, big bonus over the Sony, but the iRiver's have similar support
* Colour screen - Don't care, don't need it
* Bigger screen - don't care, can read mine easily
* Optional 60Gb higher capacity model - true, but again, not an issue for me
* Displays album art while playing music - Nice, but not a huge issue
* Displays photos - don't care, got a pc
* AV port for external display of photos/album art on TV etc - nice toy, would never use it
* Can be used to give presentations - usless to me, and most people
* More stylish - although, of course, I appreciate this is only my opinion - IMHO its pig ugly.
 
J

junglebass

Guest
mick's cat said:
iPod facts (not opinion)
* Easiest (of any DAP) to navigate and use
* FireWire connection for higher data transfer speeds, as well as USB
* Calendars
* Notes - such as map directions, news, weather
* Contact names, addresses, phone numbers etc
* Alarms/clock
* Games
* The best (of any DAP) software combination, in iTunes
* The best integrated legal download service for music
* The best integrated legal download service for audiobooks
* Use of many formats of music: AAC, protected AAC, audible, wav, as well as lossless (aiff and alac)
* Dock option for permanent connection and/or line out facilities
* Very wide range of third-party accessories
* Very wide range of third-party software to add extra features
* Colour screen
* Bigger screen
* Optional 60Gb higher capacity model
* Displays album art while playing music
* Displays photos
* AV port for external display of photos/album art on TV etc
* Can be used to give presentations
other then then a 60gb, who needs the rest in an MP3 PLAYER??
phones now days have all that....
later on im gona try to put a 60gb in my hd5 anyways

so my rant, wtf r some companies thinking when designing mp3 players????
i think all mp3 players have somekind of flaws that can be worked on and make a really solid player
 
M

mick's cat

Guest
IanPM said:
*
<snip>
ugly.
I merely disagreed with a previous poster who said: "If people bought players based on what they actually have to offer as a package, I doubt the ipod would be market leader." and pointed out that the iPod has more to offer as a package than the HD1.

The fact that a user doesn't use *all* the features of a greater package is irrelevant. The package still has more to offer.
 

johann1979

Banned
mrtbag said:
Surely that's an IMO. I'm not saying you're wrong, but to others this may not be 'fact'.
Mr T-Bag! How are you today? Strange, but true - I am agreeing with you today! With bullet points such as the easiest this and the best that Mick's Cat immediately discarded any chance of a fair comparison and instantly came accross as biased towards the iPod - the side effect of this unfortunately is that, instead of sitting up and listening, like I am sure he intended us to do, we are now tearing the comparison apart - so it has totally lost it's desired effect...

But then he's not the first Apple devotee to do that... :)
 

mrtbag

Novice Member
johann1979 said:
Mr T-Bag! How are you today? Strange, but true - I am agreeing with you today! With bullet points such as the easiest this and the best that Mick's Cat immediately discarded any chance of a fair comparison and instantly came accross as biased towards the iPod - the side effect of this unfortunately is that, instead of sitting up and listening, like I am sure he intended us to do, we are now tearing the comparison apart - so it has totally lost it's desired effect...

But then he's not the first Apple devotee to do that... :)
Hi Johann. You know me, I don't like that 'fact' label, as we are nearly always discussing something subjective!!

By the way, you and mick's cat had a google fight. You won!!!

Johann V Mick's Cat
 

Steven

Senior Moderator
That Apple have got to No 1 without anywhere near a perfect player shows that it isn't just features that matter. A shiny exterior is essential; PSP
 
M

mick's cat

Guest
johann1979 said:
Mr T-Bag! How are you today? Strange, but true - I am agreeing with you today! With bullet points such as the easiest this and the best that Mick's Cat immediately discarded any chance of a fair comparison and instantly came accross as biased towards the iPod - the side effect of this unfortunately is that, instead of sitting up and listening, like I am sure he intended us to do, we are now tearing the comparison apart - so it has totally lost it's desired effect...
Well, actually, if you'd bothered to read my post, you might have noticed that I included the comparison as a bit of fun. My intention was to rile the iPod-haters. :devil:

Seems it worked... ;)

Have a good weekend.
 

johann1979

Banned
mick's cat said:
Well, actually, if you'd bothered to read my post, you might have noticed that I included the comparison as a bit of fun. My intention was to rile the iPod-haters. :devil:

Seems it worked... ;)

Have a good weekend.
:) I know, albeit that it caused us to hate the iPod even more... :) hey, have a good weekend too ;)
 

Cloysterpeteuk

Well-known Member
I've never used a player as easy and simple to use as the ipod, primarily due to the click wheel, I sometimes need to scroll through many hours of audio which takes seconds with the scroll wheel. Until another manufacturer has PC software as good as itunes, smart playlists, audiobook features such as mp3 bookmarking and perfect menu structure on the player then I don't have any reason to switch brands. Shame really as the rest of my room is Sony so a HD would match up well.

At the moment i'm mostly loving the color screen, ergonomics, album artwork and song lyrics. Any other player I bought must also be able to auto update itself, at the moment to sync the pod with my itunes library I just plug it in then pull the cable out when it's done, nothing else.

I also have no problem with SQ so all I want now is 20 hour battery life, that's a figure I would love.
 
B

Beethovenian

Guest
The iPod may be simple to use and all, but it's not as intuitive as it could be, and I don't think the HD5 is any more difficult to use. But granted, there's no better control system than the click wheel so far, just because it makes easier to navigate through long lists.

As for iTunes, I downloaded it to see what all the fuss is about and didn't like it. True, it's smooth, very fast, things you can't say about SonicStage. But it's way too oriented to song people, and not album people. That small genre/artist/album view on top helps, but I think Windows Media Player has a more logical organization in some senses, and SonicStage is nice in allowing you different views, like having larger thumbnails of your album covers and listing all albums. But that's not the problem. The problem is that I can't see iTunes as a PC jukebox simply because it's not gapless. I tried some Lame aps MP3 files of Sibelius 2nd Symphony and iTunes went crazy. Without the crossfade to zero option, it obviously played as the iPod, with a more than noticeable gap. With crossfade to zero, the transition from 3rd to 4th movements became a mess. There was no gap, but for some reason the fourth movement started before the end of the third. To check files, I played the same tracks with Foobar. No gaps, no undesired crossfades, only regular playback. Then I copied the Gloria and Et in terra pax from Bach's Mass in B minor and the third and fourth movements from Beethoven's Fifth Symphony directly using iTunes and AAC. With crossfade to zero, both had slight glitches. The transition was much smoother, but in no way was as in the original CD. It sounded as if some beats were eaten, simply disappearing. And I couldn't see any option to join tracks after you had ripped them. Is it like that? If so, then there's absolutely no difference to SonicStage's problem of only being able to offer gapless for music encoded directly from the CD. Or better, there's the difference that you lose individual track information, plus the ability to jump to any particular track.
 
Ah, the iPod. It depends what we mean by "hard to use". I imagine that the click wheel and single middle button would be very easy for, say, a computer/electronics novice to figure out. But that comes at the risk of it being easy to operate without going to the trouble of pulling it out your pocket and looking at the screen. I got really tired of the touch wheel, I just wanted nice buttons to press. With my new HD5 I can keep it in my pocket, and with the tactile dots on the volume buttons, can play around with it effortlessly.

I don't care too much for gapless although it's a nice feature, but I certainly appreciate the full bass and crisp treble the HD5 offers. I was sick of getting distortion.
 

Cloysterpeteuk

Well-known Member
Beethovenian said:
The iPod may be simple to use and all, but it's not as intuitive as it could be, and I don't think the HD5 is any more difficult to use. But granted, there's no better control system than the click wheel so far, just because it makes easier to navigate through long lists.

As for iTunes, I downloaded it to see what all the fuss is about and didn't like it. True, it's smooth, very fast, things you can't say about SonicStage. But it's way too oriented to song people, and not album people. That small genre/artist/album view on top helps, but I think Windows Media Player has a more logical organization in some senses, and SonicStage is nice in allowing you different views, like having larger thumbnails of your album covers and listing all albums. QUOTE]

What could be more intuitive about it?. It even lets you choose what you want to have on the main menu, I can't really think of one improvement I would make to it's menu structures etc. On the go playlists etc all easy to do.

I do like how itunes handles artwork, you can have it display the thumbnail (not real small) in the bottom left of the screen, clicking gives you the full size image.

One thing I would love is to be able to delete music on the go, do any DAP offer this as i've never heard it mentioned anywhere. If you go with the flash memory cards that I use in my mobiles you can easily delete music off it, as is the case with every mobile. So why can't I do this with my flash nano?, this should be a basic option. Granted I hardly ever put on bad songs, but once in a blue moon I go and whack on a batch that i've not yet listened to which I end up discarding most of.
 

lockers

Novice Member
mick's cat said:
.... thought I'd add to the fun and just compare features between the iPod 20Gb and the Sony NW-HD1, listing only those features that one or the other has and the other hasn't, or is better at:

* Colour screen
* Bigger screen
This is just a quick question, as my iPod time-line knowledge is ropey at this time of the morning but...is that intended as a direct comparison of the 20Gb iPod that would of sat on the shelf at the same time as the NW-HD1 came out?

i.e where those features available at that time or did they arrive with a later iteration?

My apologies for not knowing the answer myself but I didn't pay much attention to the iPod and its features whilst it was so bulky! :D
 
B

Beethovenian

Guest
Cloysterpeteuk said:
What could be more intuitive about it?. It even lets you choose what you want to have on the main menu, I can't really think of one improvement I would make to it's menu structures etc. On the go playlists etc all easy to do.

I do like how itunes handles artwork, you can have it display the thumbnail (not real small) in the bottom left of the screen, clicking gives you the full size image.

One thing I would love is to be able to delete music on the go, do any DAP offer this as i've never heard it mentioned anywhere. If you go with the flash memory cards that I use in my mobiles you can easily delete music off it, as is the case with every mobile. So why can't I do this with my flash nano?, this should be a basic option. Granted I hardly ever put on bad songs, but once in a blue moon I go and whack on a batch that i've not yet listened to which I end up discarding most of.
I think it should let you navigate clicking the forward and back buttons (to, obviously, move back and forth in the menus). That would liberate the center button for other things, like going back to the now playing screen, and you wouldn't need to keep pressing menu to move back. In other words, it would be like the Rio Karma, which had an excellent interface for basic navigation. It should make better use of its screen and differentiate more menus. The first couple of times I've used it, I had a hard time understanding how to get to the album I wanted because I didn't know if I should go to All tracks or the item below, since they're all written the same way. When I tried the Vaio Pocket, which uses the same kind of navigation scheme, everything was simples because there were very clear icons and distinctions in the menu. Also, and this is not only a problem of the iPod, it should display items under alphabetical entrances, like the Karma does. I don't understand why nobody else does this.

Lockers, the iPod 20GB didn't have colour screen when the HD1 was launched, nor had scrolling text when you were navigating in the menu. Meaning that it had a bigger screen, but that would be useless if you had long track and album names because it had also bigger font types and static track names. In other words, the bigger screen was only helpful to people with eye problems. The HD1 offered as much or more information in its smaller screen.
 

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