The general 3D Camcorder thread!

Mr_Grinch

Member
Being as I have a 3D camcorder now, and people are discussing other models too then I thought I'd change the thread title to reflect the discussion. Come discuss shooting techniques, editing or problems!

My original post is below:

First time poster in the camcorder forum, and pretty much a newbie to the world of camcorders. I'm looking in to doing some 3D filming and editing, largely for fun.

I've been looking at the Panasonic SDT750, which has been floating around for about £450 with the 3D lens. This seemed pretty reasonable to me for a full HD camcorder. Now I know the lens splits the image up and records as SBS, so 3D isn't 'full' HD (though from my experience of SBS videos on my Panny GT30 the quality still ain't half bad!).

Has anyone any experience with this camcorder? I've been able to check out some examples of the 3D on youtube, which has impressed me, but the bit-rate on the videos doesn't give me a decent idea what quality to really expect.

I also hear due to the lens that filming in low light can suffer. What qualifies as low light? A lot of my videos will be taken down at the local climbing wall, which whilst not pitch black can be a little dim at times. An example of the kind of thing I'm after doing is this:

Me, myself and I bouldering at City Bloc in Leeds - YouTube

As I said, nothing serious, in that video I was messing around with difference matte's and motion tracking. Very rough, but I enjoy doing it and don't expect to hit professional standard. Editing that kind of thing in 3D would keep me very entertained and out of the wife's way for many an evening so she's given me the ok to splash some cash in the new year.

Is the SFT750 a good choice? Is there a better camera? Realistically I don't want to have to spend much more than £500 so I imagine I'm really limited. I also don't want to get a camera that's good at 3D, but rubbish at 2D. I'm aware this panasonic camcorder has limitations in 3D (no zoom, only auto-focus) and I'm quite happy to sacrifice those features to get a good quality 2D picture too.

As mentioned, it'll be used for climbing vids (indoor and outdoor), holiday pictures and family vids.

Cheers for the advice guys.
 
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doug_1986

Well-known Member
Just out of interest, how do you intend on editing it?

I'm not exactly sure how consumer 3D works, I assume they bundle some soft of application for editing with?
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
That's an interesting thought, esp as the distance between the lenses isn't 70mm (for human sight). Indeed I suspect this type of 3D will be bypassed with software, where a Cloud computer will re-engineer your footage. By being careful when taking it will gather the extra dimension.


Bear in mind that 3D only works under certain conditions (my understanding) - it can create considerable difficulties and that may explain why Pans (and Sony/JVC, all went for a more-compact design.

Editing - I imagine if you use Vegas Studio 11 (can you?) it treats the image as a pair, like the 2-ch audio.

Can OP say what was used for the Wall-shoot?
The shadows rather say it was well lit, - perhaps for safety?
 

Mr_Grinch

Member
Big hallogen lights are used in the climbing wall. It's not the brightest of rooms but it's not too dim either. The video was actually filmed on my HTC Desire S phone and edited in After Effects, which did a pretty bang up job! The other wall I go to is a bit darker, but they've always got to be well lit enough to be able to tell what colour the grips are.

I'm planning on editing through Premiere and After Effects, I've been looking in to it online, I think it involves splitting the left and right images in to separate videos, and setting each on to a different layer.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
3D - Let us know how you get on . . .
Pretty amazing from a phone, but I guess you restrict you shots to the abilities of the camera. If you buy a camera with a low f/stop (like f/1.9) this will help in the lower-light venues, but a word in their ear might update the lighting - Halogen is a good choice, but we are being forced to buy more fittings as EU Rules drop the power from 500 to 400W. It makes little difference for a patio-light but photography is less-forgiving.

I mentioned Vegas Studio 11 because it has 3D editing, however there is a reference to the use of Red/blue filters, so it may not work with a 3D enabled TV, using Polaroids. You might like to consider a camera with ext. audio-input, as it would be very Pro to have a commentary from the climber (Radio-Mic) even when they aren't facing the camera, from on high. I think the 750 has this. (Expect clip-on mic to cost £150-ish, well maybe next year?)
 

zircon3035

Active Member
Mr Grinch,

I've got a Panasonic 750 and have editied a few clips using Adobe Premiere. Editing 3D is the same as editing HD video; the signal is in the same format, so I imagine any HD NLE software would work. One thing you have to remember is that video effects are designed for 2D, so can cause some interesting effects on 3D, hence I mostly stick to cross fades. I expect (haven't checked) that there may be some 3D plug-ins out there for Premiere and other NLEs.

The 3D effect works well when played back on my Panasonic VT20. When the 3D lens is fitted to the camera, you cannot use any zoom/telephoto settings, so this is a bit limiting. I also notice that image edges appear very very slightly ragged in 3D mode compared to 2D, but it is a very slight effect. Overall I'm happy with the camera for the price.

I've also played around and created some animated 3D graphics using After-Effects. Its all good fun!

Ian
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Maybe the zoom is fixed so as to ensure the L+R images are one size. There will be a factory-setting which makes this so and any Z change could upset the "pairing" -
Not exactly what I'd expect having paid nearly £1k for a 3D movie camera, eh?

Still, as you say - a bit of Fun.
 

doug_1986

Well-known Member
As soon as you start zooming the convergence point changes, meaning that in order to zoom you would need to have the ability to physically move the 2 lenses horozontially apart from each other dependant on the distatce. Think of focusing depending on distance (like normal)... well with 3D you have to focus and set the convergence point, so focus the lenses, then move them apart/together. So, on a consumer camera with (I'm guessing) 1 lens and an adaptor to split it (? is that what is it?) you obviously can't shift them apart.

If you want to 'play around' with 3D, then a cheaper option would be 2 GoPros and a GoPro 3D rig, although again you can't shift them apart on it - it's fixed. Perhaps that may even be better suited to climbing seeing as you can drop it without killing it (ish) and can stick it on your helmet
 

zircon3035

Active Member
Yes, I imagine that is the reason. If you remove the 3D lens and reattach it, the camera prompts you to go through a quick 3 stage setup. The business end of the 3D lens has a white lens cap with a graticule. You must (going from memory here) look at the LCD screen and align the horizontal lines, then the vertical, then finally remove the lens cap and look at an image of something around 1 metre away and tweak for minimum ghosts. It might sound a bit of a fuss, but it actually is easy and there never is a significant change in the settings.

My logic (justification?) for getting the camera is that it is a decent HD SD-card camera with the bonus of letting me play with 3D. I think I only paid around £415 including Quidco cashback.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
I'm amazed that Pana, who can split light into three with surprising accuracy, can't shift the lens to make zooming possible, even if these were "fixed lengths" Undoubtedly 3D is still a minority-sport, but I don't understand why the separation needs to change - My own camera is a few million years in development and I'm unaware that changes the separation, although it does squint a bit. So I wonder if you could check - it it really the "turn-in" that needs to vary?
Surely this could be done by a moderately simple cam, aligned to the zoom-ring.

However, whist I have seen (and Marveled!) at 3D, I believe this technology will be become mainstream ONLY when "Cloud Computing" is used to generate the 3D version (perhaps for a small fee!). So folks will be able to Edit as normal, then send their completed film for processing....... you read it here first.
Timescale? Just a matter of five years, squire.
 

zircon3035

Active Member
There is no "turn-in" on the images and no movement, the camera simply takes two parallel images. The viewer just looks at two side-by-side images and their brain determines the differences between them. I agree, it would probably be better if the "eyes" of the camera were the same distance apart as human eyes, as it is they are only 3 or 4 cm apart, but it seems to work. Maybe it's how a marmoset sees the world!
 

emporer

Banned
I know you dont want to spend more than £500 but i'd seriously consider spending a bit more and getting a real 3d cam, last year around this time I looked and mulled over the Pana 750, I was almost ready to pull the trigger when I saw one for £600 but decided to wait until the newer cams came out which was only a few month away. I settled on a Sony TD10 which is just sublime, the thing about the Pana that put me off was detaching the bazooka 3d lens all the time just to get 2d stuff and the fatc it isnt true 3d, plus there was alot of bad reviews about the lack of 3d depth. The TD10 can be had for £763 online now which is a steal compared to the £1500 when it launched in the spring. I'm very glad I waited as this is one serious bit of kit, the 3d effect is just lovely and editing etc is a doddle in Vegas, ive created many 3d bluray discs to enjoy and for 2d its just as good. And a big bonus is that its fairly compact for a 3d cam compared to the others out there.
 

zircon3035

Active Member
I wasn't aware of the Sony....damn, I've already got 6 camcorders (although most are obsolete formats). I like the idea of the full resolution 3d using two lenses, but how do you edit that? Full resolution will be double that of normal HD video. The 3D screen is a nice idea, presumably it is lenticular similar to the 3DS.
 

emporer

Banned
The screen is similar to the 3DS but much much better and higher resolution, its a joy to look at. I use Sony Vegas to edit the clips, they are in the new MVC format which is now the proper 3d format and is good for 3d blu's etc, I also just use Sony PMB to import from the TD10 and create the 2D discs from, very easy and quick although with Vegas its a bit more consuming, the TD10 records 3d at 1080i50 which isnt a 3d bluray spec, the offical 3d bluray spec only allows 1080p24/720p50 or p60, so I encode using Vegas to 720p50 and the result is a superb disc that will play in any 3d bluray deck, comparing these to the original camcorder files and I cant tell any difference, even on the projector, that shows the quality of the Vegas encoding. But some of the new bluray decks out support AVCHD 2.0 which allows discs to use 3d at 1080i50 so using PMB you can easily create 3d blu's without encoding and play them back on these players, i'm sure as time goes by most players that come out now will support this. It is a superb bit of kit, if you're ever near Northants I can give you a demo.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
That a bril Report emporer, all I wonder what you plan to film that we might see. Is YouTube ready for 3D? Never mind, perhaps you can create a 2D version, in Vegas studio v11 (is it?).
 

emporer

Banned
I only really film famiy and stuff and i don't put anything on YouTube, there are guys who have put td10 clips on there, they are converted to sbs so are lower resolution than what the cam can do in true 3d, but it will give you a very good idea of what it can do, i viewed lots of these clips before buying. I use Vegas 10e which is good, Vegas 11 is out now but I've not tried it, it will do the same thing though but as 10e is perfect for me then i don't see the need to upgrade.
 

12harry

Distinguished Member
Don't recognise VS10e - however, v11 edits 3D and has some 1080p inputs also "Pro Titler" I understand allows text animation - and there is some 3D stuff too.((I wonder if the extras aren't for their new camera[which you mentioned]?))

Shame if we're not to see stuff, after yr praises of yr Camera.
 

dspa1

Active Member
I know you dont want to spend more than £500 but i'd seriously consider spending a bit more and getting a real 3d cam, last year around this time I looked and mulled over the Pana 750, I was almost ready to pull the trigger when I saw one for £600 but decided to wait until the newer cams came out which was only a few month away. I settled on a Sony TD10 which is just sublime, the thing about the Pana that put me off was detaching the bazooka 3d lens all the time just to get 2d stuff and the fatc it isnt true 3d, plus there was alot of bad reviews about the lack of 3d depth. The TD10 can be had for £763 online now which is a steal compared to the £1500 when it launched in the spring. I'm very glad I waited as this is one serious bit of kit, the 3d effect is just lovely and editing etc is a doddle in Vegas, ive created many 3d bluray discs to enjoy and for 2d its just as good. And a big bonus is that its fairly compact for a 3d cam compared to the others out there.

Do you have a link for TD10 for £763.00

Thx in advance
 

John Lewis

Novice Member
I wasn't aware of the Sony....damn, I've already got 6 camcorders (although most are obsolete formats). I like the idea of the full resolution 3d using two lenses, but how do you edit that? Full resolution will be double that of normal HD video. The 3D screen is a nice idea, presumably it is lenticular similar to the 3DS.

Grass Valley Edius are currently making availabe a trial Edius 3d there will be limitations, current trial ends end of January but there will be further updates untill end of March 2012 You will need an i7 PC however it supports Sony JVC and Panasonic
Go to Grass Valley website and choose Demo software
 

emporer

Banned
Do you have a link for TD10 for £763.00

Thx in advance

Its from slrhut.co.uk, its dropped to £755 now too.

Sony HDR-TD10 Full HD 3D Camcorder

EDIT - just seen that they sell the American NTSC ones and not PAL. Not a huge issue apart from they will be 60i and not 50i, with modern tv's they almost always handle 60i/p so its not an issue really.
 
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12harry

Distinguished Member
Following this thread I understand one of the issues (with 3D), is the playback Projector or TV - the image is L+R but when closer objects are viewed your eyes still focus at the same distance - this cause some confusion in the brain, as the eyes are not turned-in, even though the position has moved closer...

This can cause headaches after relatively short viewings . . . but it affect people differently.

It is part of the "new 3D push" to resolve this issue and I suspect it may affect the camera features to match the display tech. . . . . . . . . . So, if you're on a limited budget....
 

emporer

Banned
I think with some cheaper 3d cams that arent true 3d then this can be an issue, these are cheap because they effectively produce psuedo 3d and not true 3d, I can honestly say ive viewed so much footage from my TD10 without a problem, i've sat in front of both tv and projector viewing my footage for as much as 3 hours in one sitting and not felt bad at all, in fact neither did the other people watching it too! I get more tired feeling playing my 3DS to be honest!
 

dspa1

Active Member
Its from slrhut.co.uk, its dropped to £755 now too.

Sony HDR-TD10 Full HD 3D Camcorder

EDIT - just seen that they sell the American NTSC ones and not PAL. Not a huge issue apart from they will be 60i and not 50i, with modern tv's they almost always handle 60i/p so its not an issue really.

Thx emporer ordered from amazon , it should arrive in time for my holiday next week.

Any tips on usage?
 

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