The Full Picture

scrapbook

Distinguished Member
Well in recent years there's been faulty power supplies (premature failing), Purple snakes, Faulty panels (vertical green line) rising Blacks & now floating blacks.....quite enough to be going on with I think :D

Floating blacks have been around since at least the PV500. It was one of the things that put me off buying it before I finally dipped my toe in with the PX600

I haven't really noticed them on the PX600, but certainly seen plenty of snakes in my time. Although greatly reduced since it went in for the "fix"
 

paulr2006

Distinguished Member
Yes all things I'm familiar with, but floating blacks, rising blacks and purple snakes are issue's 85% of consumers will not notice or care about.

I do believe that if these faults were that much of an issue I would have seen at least one Panasonic returned with these faults in the last 5 years! I would estimate my employer has probably sold over 500 g20's already this quarter and no complaints, probably 50 vt20's and god know how many g and v10's last year, not one returned with any of the above faults, the most common issues by far are sets stuck in standby and lines of pixels out which is caused by the sus drive board failing.

We are all looking for perfection nowadays which is all well and good, Pioneer are the only manufacturer to come close, if thats what everyone expects then they should have gone and got one when they were available...Pioneer would probably still be producing flatpanels if they had, instead most consumers bought any old set to do the job, and the minority who did have the money chose style over substance and bought a massive Samsung to look lovely on the wall when switched off or to go with the rooms decor and keep the missus happy imo.

I have been impressed with what I've seen of the G20 and intend on buying a v20 monday, if I see any issues mentioned above or excessive phosphor trails then I will of course be swapping for something else but I think Phil touched on this in his reviews, these concerns may well be there but if a highly experience reviewer struggled to see them then I would guess the rest of us won't have a problem.

But on your earlier post you said "but with Panasonic plasma's I've never know any issues" & now you say "Yes all things I'm familiar with" you can't have it both ways :D & if 85% of customers don't notice/care does that make it right? you also have to factor in the fact that many people will not complain as they know the likely response they will get from dealers/support.

Of course nothing is perfect but that's no excuse for turning out shoddy products especially from a company that promotes itself as a premium brand.

I bought a 50V10 last year which was initially a superb set, however after around 6 months it deteriorated badly in the black level department. The level of denial & deceit from Panasonic support was outrages & to be honest left a very bad taste. However, that said & now I have my refund the chances are I will buy a VT20, I just hope this years models fair better & I'm not making another huge mistake :facepalm:
 

rogs

Well-known Member
The level of denial & deceit from Panasonic support was outrages & to be honest left a very bad taste. However, that said & now I have my refund the chances are I will buy a VT20, I just hope this years models fair better & I'm not making another huge mistake :facepalm:

Why on earth would you consider another model from a company that you say displays such high levels of 'denial and deceit' in their support? :confused:

Once bitten, twice shy, surely?
 

paulr2006

Distinguished Member
Why on earth would you consider another model from a company that you say displays such high levels of 'denial and deceit' in their support? :confused:

Once bitten, twice shy, surely?

You are absolutely correct, my sentiments exactly but the only problem is that unfortunately there is not another TV out there that comes close PQ wise from anyone but Panasonic :( believe me if I could find one that ticks all my boxes I would be going for it! I just hope that things have changed in this years models :rolleyes:
 

Craig uk

Well-known Member
But on your earlier post you said "but with Panasonic plasma's I've never know any issues" & now you say "Yes all things I'm familiar with" you can't have it both ways :D & if 85% of customers don't notice/care does that make it right? you also have to factor in the fact that many people will not complain as they know the likely response they will get from dealers/support.

Of course nothing is perfect but that's no excuse for turning out shoddy products especially from a company that promotes itself as a premium brand.

I bought a 50V10 last year which was initially a superb set, however after around 6 months it deteriorated badly in the black level department. The level of denial & deceit from Panasonic support was outrages & to be honest left a very bad taste. However, that said & now I have my refund the chances are I will buy a VT20, I just hope this years models fair better & I'm not making another huge mistake :facepalm:

I'm not trying to have it both way, I simply meant I was familiar with those issues because of what I have read on here, not because I have seen or heard of the same things in the trade.
 

tele1962

Distinguished Member
I'm not trying to have it both way, I simply meant I was familiar with those issues because of what I have read on here, not because I have seen or heard of the same things in the trade.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way but mate but why is it that people in the trade never seem to see any issues when Panasonic and others have said the issues are real and proven to be so.:confused:
Again how many of your customers would even know what to look for?:)
The difference between an AV enthusiast and your everyday punter is quite apparent even to me when i visit so called AV shops who for want of a better quote "would have your eyes out and come back for the sockets".:D
 

Craig uk

Well-known Member
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but mate but why is it that people in the trade never seem to see any issues when Panasonic and others have said the issues are real and proven to be so.:confused:
Again how many of your customers would even know what to look for?:)
The difference between an AV enthusiast and your everyday punter is quite apparent even to me when i visit so called AV shops who for want of a better quote "would have your eyes out and come back for the sockets".:D

I can assure you I have no obligation to any Manufacturer and no reason to ignore whats being reported here. If I had any first hand experience with these issues I would be in agreement but I don't and thats why I wanted to share my findings.

IMO the point isn't whether consumers know what to look for, if these faults were common and bad enough then they would complain and I would surely see evidence of this, considering I deal with returns.

I agree the vast majority wouldn't have a clue what to look for but I do and I haven't seen anything wrong with the g20 im testing at work so far. Don't forget I'm a consumer too and on Monday will be buying a V20... of course I'm interested and concerned with these issues and will be watching with a very careful eye when I get the set. I don't for one minute doubt that some of you guys are having problems, its just a question of what rate these Panasonic plasma's are failing at.

Obviously we cant really comment yet about the mll on the 20's, I personally would put this issue right up there with Sonys non uniform backlighting if it turns out to be correct.. unacceptable but untill I see any first hand evidence then I will give Panasonic the benefit of the doubt. Also I don't actually recal Panasonic UK confirming these faults on UK models?

I think ******** has kindly offered to measure some 2010 models over a period of time, obviously this will give a very clear reflection as to whats actually happening.

Over the years I've owned quite a few Sony Lcd's and thanks to the info on here I was well aware of clouding/uneven backlighting but due to the fact I work for a dealer I was able to test many before finding a good one, thats what I did and with the x2000, x3500, w4500 and lastly z4500 (high end models) I would say that from my experience 75% were unacceptable IMO and suffered from clouding to a large extent but there were sets which were produced with near perfect backlighting also, unfortunately they were quite hard to find. Pretty much all manufactures of Lcd's have this problem and auto dimmimg tryed to help with the issue but unfortunatley just added more problems imo. We did recieve a small ammount of Sony ldcs back with this problem, with my personal knowledge and first hand experience I expected to see many more, again the consumer either didn't see the faults, which I know were definitely there, or didn't care. Manufactures know this, I know its not an excuse to produce sub standard products but you've gotta look at the big picture as ******** is highlighting with this thread...that works both ways.

Phil's review of the v20 is a very positive one imo and until we find if there is any serious mll concerns or floating blacks with the 20's then thats good enough for me.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
. Also I don't actually recal Panasonic UK confirming these faults on UK models?

They haven't released a statement but they have confirmed it happens to all 2009 V&G's, by email, to a number of us here. I don't think it's unreasonable to surmise it will happen to the 2010 range either, albeit in finer gradations, taking Bob Perry's statement in to account:)
 

ozzzy189

Distinguished Member
just because an lcd is fine when you buy it, it doesn't mean the clouding will not get worse. my mates bravia was fine for four months, then went terribly cloudy. yuk.
 

paulr2006

Distinguished Member
just because an lcd is fine when you buy it, it doesn't mean the clouding will not get worse. my mates bravia was fine for four months, then went terribly cloudy. yuk.

This happened to a friends LCD which we put down to his wife's over vigorous cleaning of it. He asked if I could suggest anything to help so I suggested the following & it worked perfectly!

Lay the TV flat on a table (panel facing down) & leave it for ideally 24 hours. This seems to redistribute the panel weight & lets it settle as it should be. The end result was 100% no clouding, in fact it was better than when he purchased it :)
 

RichWalk

Active Member
This happened to a friends LCD which we put down to his wife's over vigorous cleaning of it. He asked if I could suggest anything to help so I suggested the following & it worked perfectly!

Lay the TV flat on a table (panel facing down) & leave it for ideally 24 hours. This seems to redistribute the panel weight & lets it settle as it should be. The end result was 100% no clouding, in fact it was better than when he purchased it :)

never heard of that before, cracking tip if it works!!:D
 

paulr2006

Distinguished Member
never heard of that before, cracking tip if it works!!:D

It does! have used it several times on various sets :) though looking at the Sony EX ones I don't think it would sort those out :D but then that's down to the LED's forming cones of light rather than clouding I guess.
 

ozzzy189

Distinguished Member
it has krp software too i think. the menu system is krp style isn't it ?
 

toodeep

Member
The 5090 user interface is particularly poor. Pioneer certainly thought so and marketed its replacement on the KRPs.
 

ac427

Standard Member
No worries, I wondered if was any better because it was a later set imported to the UK by Pioneer.

It does have the KRP menu
 

Chauvinnais

Active Member
I've had great pleasure in reading this and post the link Telecine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia in hope that some others here might also. I haven't yet followed the external links that follow at the bottom but they certainly deserve a follow up.

Apologies to those members to whom telecine is their first language. :)
 
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ozzzy189

Distinguished Member
Yes, I have an agreement with the store manager to go and re measure it in 2 weeks time once it has some hours racked up on it. Then I am measuring it again in July, 3 months, October 6 months and finally December.

have you had chance to re-measure yet steve ?
 

Bumtious

Banned
have you had chance to re-measure yet steve ?

Yes, just gonna measure another to see if its consistent.

Sorry not bee around much over the last 10 days, been busy on a major IT project.

This is a response to stuff posted elsewhere as there is shall we say "pot kettle black" and emperors new clothes syndrome going on that does not help people make informed purchasing decisions.

As posted previously I had a real good look at the main 3 HD sets, Panny, LG and Samsung.

Was not impressed with the Samsung mainly due to clouding issues with the screen and 3D crosstalk, also the fact that unless you sit straight the polarization effect of the glasses cause the image to substantially darken if you try to lay down and watch.

The differences in the 3D experience between the LG and the Panny surprised me. I expected the Panny to be vastly superior, it wasn't.

In fact it was about the same, strange as the panny send full HD to each eye where the LG is basically half resolution like sky broadcasts are. So I spent some time understanding why.

Firstly with the Panny its well documented that the glasses are quite uncomfortable on the nose. There is another issues, and that is reflection inside the glasses if any light comes in from behind you, so positioning of the set and where you sit and what external light may hit these things is important. The shop I was in had the set in a dark room but light was coming in from behind & I had to sit with on of my hands against the left hand side of the glasses to stop the reflections.

Now its been reported at beyond TV I believe that the the Panny set halves colour on show in 3D.

Well not sure about that but colour is far from accurate in 3D.

NOW for gaming, this is not an issue, why cuz its not real so colours don't really matter, its the experience here that matters.

But with Films and TV that's a different matter.

I don't think its a coincidence that most of the initial Blu Ray offerings are cartoon based material, again not real so it does not matter. For those of you with normal sets, put a pair of sun glasses on and see what happens to the colour. Preferably one with a yellow/orange tint. That is about what you will see. Same on the Samsung but NOT with the LG. Those are the same bluish tint glasses that you get at the cinema.

Now we get to the really interesting bit. The Panny is a full 3D HD set sending full 1080p to each eye. HOWEVER the glasses mullers detail, now before people get on their high horses let me elaborate. There are some pluses here.

It hides the banding that these sets suffer from, it also masks any noise in the picture. Now again sun glasses to this, and this bit relates to another thread, Pio 9g owners get a pair of sunglasses especially yellow/orange tinted ones, get about 4 inches away form the screen freeze the picture and look hard to see some dithering, then put the glasses on, it masks it.

What does this mean, well IMHO full 1080p with current 3D technology is NOT necessary, I saw NO extra detail between the LG and the Panny with 3D material, in fact I found the LG more pleasing to watch, there were no in glasses reflections going on, the glasses were light and the colour was much better. BUT most importantly, I saw just as much detail in 3D with both sets. You could look around the room with the LG specs and go back to the picture, the Panny if you look away for to long, the glasses shut down and take a second or two to re engage. When you take the glasses off you can see the differences in both sets fine detail but NOT with the glasses on. Sky 3D is only half resolution but in 3D that's enough.

The other issue for me with 3D is this.

With current 3D technology when you look "in" to the image it looks stunning, like looking through a window, PROVIDING its shot in video format. That IMHO is the only time it looks real.

As soon as it moves to being shot on film the sets simply cant handle the motion properly, period.

Also when an object comes "out" of the screen that's where content makers have a lot to learn. The way its presented is simply not natural and that's why your brain finds it hard to process. In real life when something comes towards you then your peripheral vision helps place that object in context with its surrounding, because there is no peripheral vision "markers" and because you are looking at a small screen over the other side of the room, your eyes finds it hard to focus on it that object and your brain simply can't process where the object should be in relation to it surroundings.

3D has potential but its early days. It is virtually impossible to compensate for the colour altering characteristics of the glasses, so colour in 3D is all wrong.

There is still almost ZERO content out there and VERY few people have these sets to gauge any adverse health issues that technology may cause. I have friend who is an optician who is also a keen photographer and he states that the eye is being asked to do very unnatural things and it may well cause long term damage. BUT ITS TOO EARLY TO TELL.

For gaming, if you like the effect 3D is interesting but for film and broadcast, there is much to do IMHO.
 

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