The Full Picture

judethedude

Well-known Member
What really worries you ?
The fact they project to sell twice more displays in 2012 than last year ?
The fact they concentrate on 3d ? (which is a big advantage of plasmas)

Panasonic has just completed its latest Amagasaki PDP plant
Panasonic completes Amagasaki PDP plant | The Japan Times Online

It would be quite ridiculous to quit this market just after their biggest factory started ...

Sure they can decide when they want to exit the plasma business but it would be quite irrational to do it during the next few years.

- They are the market leader in the plasma
- 3D is booming
- their plasma division is profitable
- they've invested billions of dollar in it ...

PANASONIC PLASMA PANEL PLANT TO SERVE AS 3D TV SUPPLY BASE | TradingMarkets.com

To give a reference, it's more than 10x the plasma production of Pioneer at its peak ...

You need to read the post by ******** again.

Sure, Panasonic can make as many Plasma TV's as they like and make a profit.

But the point is quality that will last, not quantity !
 

tombac99

Active Member
You need to read the post by ******** again.

Sure, Panasonic can make as many Plasma TV's as they like and make a profit.

But the point is quality that will last, not quantity !

People who take all this as gospel must be having a marvellous time buying up all the 50/500 panasonics on ebay, with those G20/VT20 owners buying into panasonics cheap panel lottery.

I've been selling TVs for six years, if you think that there has been no improvement in this time then please buy my old telly. I'll be glad to sell it to you, it's much nicer than the v20 I have on order.
 

Chelsea_Fan

Active Member
People who take all this as gospel must be having a marvellous time buying up all the 50/500 panasonics on ebay, with those G20/VT20 owners buying into panasonics cheap panel lottery.

I've been selling TVs for six years, if you think that there has been no improvement in this time then please buy my old telly. I'll be glad to sell it to you, it's much nicer than the v20 I have on order.

I'm glad someone else finds this thread amusing ;)
 

judethedude

Well-known Member
People who take all this as gospel must be having a marvellous time buying up all the 50/500 panasonics on ebay, with those G20/VT20 owners buying into panasonics cheap panel lottery.

I've been selling TVs for six years, if you think that there has been no improvement in this time then please buy my old telly. I'll be glad to sell it to you, it's much nicer than the v20 I have on order.

I've never said I took the post by ******** as gospel but I do think a lot of what he's says makes sense. I own two Panasonic Plasma TV's, a PX60 and an X10. Yes, the PQ on the X10 is better than the PX60 in terms of blacks and contrast but, the build quality of the X10 is nowhere near that of the PX60.

In fact, the build quality of the X10 is pretty much the same as the LG LCD I have in the bedroom. Both TV's look great but have been built to a price, and that is the one of the points ******** was making. A point, from my own personal experience, I agree on.
 

ozzzy189

Distinguished Member
I'm not sue '3D is booming' matey. I can't help but think plasmas days are numbered now. the next year or two is crucial. Am i correct in saying here in the UK, only sammy, pana and LG are selling plasma ? Sammy always seem to push LCD and Led LCD, pana Push plasma for their larger screens and 3d, and LG sit somewhere in the middle.
This worries me, i still feel plasma is better, but without a krp killer out there at the moment, how loing before and LCD, led of ccfl (?), becomes the number one ? Then there won't be what makes this 'hobby' so interesting- A CHOICE !
LCD is number one to the mass market that go to currys etc, but not from a av enthusiasts point of view. Forgive my ramblings, and i'm not really sure what point i'm trying to make myself ! However, maybe someone will chip in and post something that provokes some contructive comments in this area.

Steve- have you seen the commercial LCD LG displays ? A 52'' for under 2k, saw em in HBL catalogue.
 

Lessard

Standard Member
You need to read the post by ******** again.

Sure, Panasonic can make as many Plasma TV's as they like and make a profit.

But the point is quality that will last, not quantity !

******** has stated many times there are a lot of chances the VT25 may be the last Panasonic plasma.

This is a complete nonsense and based on no data ...

BTW Panasonic has stated it intends to produce 10 million plasma in its 2013 fiscal year (March 2012 -> March 2013).
So there is a very very high probability we may see a VT30 and a VT40 ;)
 

Will Scarlet

Well-known Member
******** has stated many times there are a lot of chances the VT25 may be the last Panasonic plasma.

This is a complete nonsense and based on no data ...

BTW Panasonic has stated it intends to produce 10 million plasma in its 2013 fiscal year (March 2012 -> March 2013).
So there is a very very high probability we may see a VT30 and a VT40 ;)

Can I have a link please because I cannot remember ******** making any such statement?
 

Julie

Well-known Member
I have not been getting notification of replies to these posts, hence ~ :)

Can I ak you to stop wasting my & others time.
Thank You.

Julie, Plasma TV forum moderator.
 

Bumtious

Banned
******** has stated many times there are a lot of chances the VT25 may be the last Panasonic plasma.

This is a complete nonsense and based on no data ...

BTW Panasonic has stated it intends to produce 10 million plasma in its 2013 fiscal year (March 2012 -> March 2013).
So there is a very very high probability we may see a VT30 and a VT40 ;)

I haven't stated anything of the sort, I am reading articles like you are and taking them will a pinch of salt and am clearly stating that they are opinions NOT FACT, and surmising just like you are. They can make all the claims they like, but to steal that level of market, they have to produce sets that people want to buy, and deliver a decent return on investment to the purchaser.
 

Bumtious

Banned
People who take all this as gospel must be having a marvellous time buying up all the 50/500 panasonics on ebay, with those G20/VT20 owners buying into panasonics cheap panel lottery.

I've been selling TVs for six years, if you think that there has been no improvement in this time then please buy my old telly. I'll be glad to sell it to you, it's much nicer than the v20 I have on order.

Six years..... I've been selling em and been involved with them for 25 years, and right now the quality of most of em is kak.

People are easily pleased/misled.

I suspected some dealers would not like the truth.

Lets really put the cards on the table.

Over the years as seen in real life and over dramatised in the movies, there has been inventions intended to be used for good, but some have been hijacked and have been put to use for things that are not so good.

TV manufacturers now have the ability to CONTROL the life of your telly. Some manufacturers are using this well to prolong the life of your telly, SOME are not.

Some are deliberately prematurely programming the sets to look less vibrant very quickly. Some have got it so far wrong that instead of starting to go downhill after 60,000 hours they are going downhill after no more than 6000 hours and in some cases 600 hours. All that's happened is this mistake has exposed what they are doing. Some claim their screens will last 100,000 hours. The screens might well be capable of that but they will NEVER allow them to.

These sets could last for years, but with targets like 10 million units they have to do something to encourage you to part with your cash, especially where low price low margin sets are concerned. They simply cannot afford to let them last.

Its easy now for them to gradually degrade the performance so you don't notice. However when you walk past a shop and see a vibrant image compared to yours at home it is simply encouraging you, even fooling you that you need a new one. And when your get your new one home its going to look better than you old one cuz all the secret settings have deliberately toned down your old one. And no adjustment will rectify it.

They also prey on technical ignorance of the mass market who simply don't care. The mass market makes up a small number of people here on the forum, most people here consider themselves enthusiasts. 99% of my mates have never heard of this or other forums. They just want to see a picture and watch telly.

My Dad's 3 year 37PX60 is a disgrace, the image is dire, its washed out, the colour is lousy and the black level has gone to the dogs not to mention the purple snakes. He paid £1200 for it. My bother in law brought a 42" LG plasma a year ago, paid £500 the picture is vastly better than my Dads PX60, but it won't last. However my Dad doesn't care, in fact he doesn't realise how bad it is, he still uses VHS on it. All he wants to do is watch telly, and the manufacturers know this.

Tombac99 sorry, the older sets were built to a higher standard and retain their image quality for longer. Those sets cost £3000, plus, todays sets are £700 -£800, and they simply are programmed NOT to last, the sets that are £2000 plus last longer, but sub £2000 sets are not.

Just because we only have a few people here noticing problems does not mean that in the real bricks and mortar world, people aren't complaining also, most people are not as sad as us, (2.30 in the morning).

Funny how when you complain to a dealer you get the line "oh not heard of that before"!!!! SORRY THAT'S BULL, and you know it!!!

There will be VERY few dealers or manufacturers who will come on here or admit anywhere what the true level of any issue is, it will always be damage limitation, they leave it ambiguous and spend hours discussing what statement they will be able to get away with at the least cost to them.

They can't risk sales by telling the truth can they:nono:

Gerald Ratner mistakenly told the truth about his products.:facepalm::suicide:
 
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socrates1

Active Member
Thanks Bumptious for some very frank and provocative posts.

Based on your experience what are the current TV's (plasma or LCD(LED)) you would recommend considering.

I currently have a fvie year old Panasonic 42PA50 which I believe was the last of the SD plasmas from Panny.

I'd like to move up to 46"-50". I was thinking about the 50V20 but having done a bit of research, I'm obviously concerned about the rising black levels issue and Panasonic's disgraceful attitude in relation to this problem. I was also thinking along the lines of the Philips 46PFL7605.

Thanks for any advice you can give.
 

tombac99

Active Member
Hi ********, I was being a little flippant there, and I totally agree that the build quality of most sets has taken a dramatic turn for the worse, especially the pedestal construction. I'm not 100% sold on the inbuilt degradation theory in this case as constant spec change and design claims induce enough upgradeitis in most people to drive new sales, but longevity will not be the manufacturers primary concern will it?

"What's your cheapest 32inch 1080p with 200hz" is something I have to put up with all the time, people want big numbers and a cheap price which will of course mean building to a price point which is what the market wants unfortunately. It's the same story with washing machines but that's for another forum I think.

Saying all that with some exceptions I think that picture quality has generally improved over the years especially from LCD, I'm a sucker for a new line-up and where possible compare freshly unboxed previous with current.
 

Chelsea_Fan

Active Member
Six years..... I've been selling em and been involved with them for 25 years, and right now the quality of most of em is kak.

People are easily pleased/misled.

I suspected some dealers would not like the truth.

Lets really put the cards on the table.

Over the years as seen in real life and over dramatised in the movies, there has been inventions intended to be used for good, but some have been hijacked and have been put to use for things that are not so good.

TV manufacturers now have the ability to CONTROL the life of your telly. Some manufacturers are using this well to prolong the life of your telly, SOME are not.

Some are deliberately prematurely programming the sets to look less vibrant very quickly. Some have got it so far wrong that instead of starting to go downhill after 60,000 hours they are going downhill after no more than 6000 hours and in some cases 600 hours. All that's happened is this mistake has exposed what they are doing. Some claim their screens will last 100,000 hours. The screens might well be capable of that but they will NEVER allow them to.

These sets could last for years, but with targets like 10 million units they have to do something to encourage you to part with your cash, especially where low price low margin sets are concerned. They simply cannot afford to let them last.

Its easy now for them to gradually degrade the performance so you don't notice. However when you walk past a shop and see a vibrant image compared to yours at home it is simply encouraging you, even fooling you that you need a new one. And when your get your new one home its going to look better than you old one cuz all the secret settings have deliberately toned down your old one. And no adjustment will rectify it.

They also prey on technical ignorance of the mass market who simply don't care. The mass market makes up a small number of people here on the forum, most people here consider themselves enthusiasts. 99% of my mates have never heard of this or other forums. They just want to see a picture and watch telly.

My Dad's 3 year 37PX60 is a disgrace, the image is dire, its washed out, the colour is lousy and the black level has gone to the dogs not to mention the purple snakes. He paid £1200 for it. My bother in law brought a 42" LG plasma a year ago, paid £500 the picture is vastly better than my Dads PX60, but it won't last. However my Dad doesn't care, in fact he doesn't realise how bad it is, he still uses VHS on it. All he wants to do is watch telly, and the manufacturers know this.

Tombac99 sorry, the older sets were built to a higher standard and retain their image quality for longer. Those sets cost £3000, plus, todays sets are £700 -£800, and they simply are programmed NOT to last, the sets that are £2000 plus last longer, but sub £2000 sets are not.

Just because we only have a few people here noticing problems does not mean that in the real bricks and mortar world, people aren't complaining also, most people are not as sad as us, (2.30 in the morning).

Funny how when you complain to a dealer you get the line "oh not heard of that before"!!!! SORRY THAT'S BULL, and you know it!!!

There will be VERY few dealers or manufacturers who will come on here or admit anywhere what the true level of any issue is, it will always be damage limitation, they leave it ambiguous and spend hours discussing what statement they will be able to get away with at the least cost to them.

They can't risk sales by telling the truth can they:nono:

Gerald Ratner mistakenly told the truth about his products.:facepalm::suicide:

The main villain here (according to ********) appears to be Panasonic.
What is this based on? i.e. the evidence so far.

We have the rising black issue which so far amounts to a tiny step rise in black level on some of their plasma models. (big deal)

The rest of the evidence seems to be anecdotal based on a few plasma sets that appear worse than they might have been.

So let's look at this rationally. Let's look at this from a numbers point of view. Plasma has a much smaller market share compared to LCD.

Panasonic has a large share in the plasma market but in terms of overall TV sales Panasonic plasmas are small fry.

So ask yourself this (rational) question. Will slowly scuppering their Plasma TVs make good business sense for Panasonic? Will it really result in more repeat sales in a world dominated by LED/LCD TVs?

I don't think so.

Are recent LCD TVs getting the same treatment? Wouldn't this make more sense than plasma? How about some evidence of this?

Also, try and think about the logistics of this. Can you imagine keeping this a secret? Japan is probably the only place this security could happen but I don't think they would do it. Someone in a suit at the top level would have to persuade engineers to program a cripple routine into the TV. It would be insane to do this.

I'd go as far as to suggest that whoever thinks of this type of solution at a Panasonic board meeting would be sacked. I work as a designer in the electronics sector and I know that such a person would be in deep trouble for suggesting this. Electronics companies have a proud reputation and I bet none are prouder than the japs.

So what would be a more rational approach to achieving greater market share? Make the product BETTER than everyone else's. That is what Panasonic have always tried to do. Also they can target emerging markets and that is where those millions of new TVs are headed as the global economy reaches more and more customers.

The downside is that the TV might appear cheaper on the outside as the 'global' consumer profile changes as they have to cut costs somewhere. But I very much doubt there will be any deliberate cripple trickery programmed into their TVs.
 
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tombac99

Active Member
Just because we only have a few people here noticing problems does not mean that in the real bricks and mortar world, people aren't complaining also, most people are not as sad as us, (2.30 in the morning).

Funny how when you complain to a dealer you get the line "oh not heard of that before"!!!! SORRY THAT'S BULL, and you know it!!!

Honestly we have only had one complaint of an MLL rise, so it isn't necessarily bull.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
We have the rising black issue which so far amounts to a tiny step rise in black level on some of their plasma models. (big deal)

Woah there.:D

Do you honestly consider double or treble the original base luminance to be a 'tiny step rise'? Anyone that has measured, afaik, has at least seen a doubling in MLL. It would maybe be relatively insignificant if you were starting at Kuro levels but the 2009 Panasonic's were nowhere near that and I can totally assure you the effects on PQ are pretty dramatic when watching in subdued lighting:)

EDIT: I doubt the deliberate crippling too but they goofed, big time, in 2009.
 
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tele1962

Distinguished Member
The main villain here (according to ********) appears to be Panasonic.
What is this based on? i.e. the evidence so far.

We have the rising black issue which so far amounts to a tiny step rise in black level on some of their plasma models. (big deal)

The rest of the evidence seems to be anecdotal based on a few plasma sets that appear worse than they might have been.

So let's look at this rationally. Let's look at this from a numbers point of view. Plasma has a much smaller market share compared to LCD.

Panasonic has a large share in the plasma market but in terms of overall TV sales Panasonic plasmas are small fry.

So ask yourself this (rational) question. Will slowly scuppering their Plasma TVs make good business sense for Panasonic? Will it really result in more repeat sales in a world dominated by LED/LCD TVs?

I don't think so.

Are recent LCD TVs getting the same treatment? Wouldn't this make more sense than plasma? How about some evidence of this?

Also, try and think about the logistics of this. Can you imagine keeping this a secret? Japan is probably the only place this security could happen but I don't think they would do it. Someone in a suit at the top level would have to persuade engineers to program a cripple routine into the TV. It would be insane to do this.

I'd go as far as to suggest that whoever thinks of this type of solution at a Panasonic board meeting would be sacked. I work as a designer in the electronics sector and I know that such a person would be in deep trouble for suggesting this. Electronics companies have a proud reputation and I bet none are prouder than the japs.

So what would be a more rational approach to achieving greater market share? Make the product BETTER than everyone else's. That is what Panasonic have always tried to do. Also they can target emerging markets and that is where those millions of new TVs are headed as the global economy reaches more and more customers.

The downside is that the TV might appear cheaper on the outside as the 'global' consumer profile changes as they have to cut costs somewhere. But I very much doubt there will be any deliberate cripple trickery programmed into their TVs.

Tiny Step mate :nono::nono::nono: until it happens to you.:)
 

Chelsea_Fan

Active Member
Woah there.
Do you honestly consider double or treble the original base luminance to be a 'tiny step rise'?


Tiny Step mate :nono::nono::nono: until it happens to you.:)

Fair enough :)

but the question has to be 'is this deliberate'

i.e. have they done this deliberately to scupper the TV?

Panasonic have published patents on their PDP driving methods and this rising black issue is discussed in their patents.

It's a side effect of the technology.

Why would they document this in a patent if it was meant to be a secret way of scuppering the TV?
 
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tele1962

Distinguished Member
Fair enough :)

but the question has to be 'is this deliberate'

i.e. have they done this deliberately to scupper the TV?

Panasonic have published patents on their PDP driving methods and this rising black issue is discussed in their patents.

It's a side effect of the technology.

Why would they document this in a patent if it was meant to be a secret way of scuppering the TV?

I think which ever way you look at it Panasonic advertised their 2009 sets as Infinite Black not Black for so long then grey with bad IR.
If it is is side effect of the technology they realy should have said so in their advertising.
 

hodg100

Distinguished Member
Fair enough :)

but the question has to be 'is this deliberate'

i.e. have they done this deliberately to scupper the TV?

Panasonic have published patents on their PDP driving methods and this rising black issue is discussed in their patents.

It's a side effect of the technology.

Why would they document this in a patent if it was meant to be a secret way of scuppering the TV?

I'd say it was deliberate but not with the intention of 'scuppering' the TV. I would say it is disingenuous of them to sell something they know will degrade in performance fairly rapidly, however.
 

Chelsea_Fan

Active Member
I think which ever way you look at it Panasonic advertised their 2009 sets as Infinite Black not Black for so long then grey with bad IR.
If it is is side effect of the technology they realy should have said so in their advertising.

I agree. No argument there, but I'm more concerned about the claims that manufacturers are deliberately programming TVs to lose quality with the aim to get more repeat sales.

If you think about it, it's an insane thing to do. I bet Panasonic are upset over the rising black issue rather than rubbing their hands together thinking it will somehow mean they will get more TV sales. I'd go so far as to say there will be some engineers and managers that are in deep brown stuff over this.

Repeat business is based on brand loyalty and quality. I don't see a place there for TVs that die or fade quicker than the competition.
 
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Craig uk

Well-known Member
Six years..... I've been selling em and been involved with them for 25 years,
My Dad's 3 year 37PX60 is a disgrace, the image is dire, its washed out, the colour is lousy and the black level has gone to the dogs not to mention the purple snakes. He paid £1200 for it. My bother in law brought a 42" LG plasma a year ago, paid £500 the picture is vastly better than my Dads PX60, but it won't last. However my Dad doesn't care, in fact he doesn't realise how bad it is, he still uses VHS on it. All he wants to do is watch telly, and the manufacturers know this.

Tombac99 sorry, the older sets were built to a higher standard and retain their image quality for longer. Those sets cost £3000, plus, todays sets are £700

Just because we only have a few people here noticing problems does not mean that in the real bricks and mortar world, people aren't complaining also, most people are not as sad as us, (2.30 in the morning).

Funny how when you complain to a dealer you get the line "oh not heard of that before"!!!! SORRY THAT'S BULL, and you know it!!!

I have to agree with your comments regarding manufactures cutting corners and not producing sets to the best of their ability, like you say at the prices most go for nowadays its not surprising.

Although I've spent the last ten years working in the industry and I have to say I have never heard one word mentioned about mll or anything of the sort, I also work closely with tv engineers who are blissfully unaware of it:confused:

As mentioned earlier I have known many consumers to complain of clouding on lcd and led panels but with Panasonic plasma's I've never know any issues. My boss has been working in the business as long as you and also owned 3 Panny plasma's over as many years and never noticed anything.

I believe the vast majority of consumers dont care about these sort of things anyway, like your old man they just want to watch tv. I have been running a g20 at work trying to see these floating blacks for a good while now and just cant see it, I don't dispute that there is an issue but I haven't seen it and I've been looking hard.

Also just out of interest which of these older gen models are you refering to being better. My dad sold an old hitachi pd3000 to a mate of mine about 4 years ago, I went round his the other day to install sky for him and was surprised at how good the image was with sd, easily on par with some of the best sets nowadays.
 

paulr2006

Distinguished Member
I have to agree with your comments regarding manufactures cutting corners and not producing sets to the best of their ability, like you say at the prices most go for nowadays its not surprising.

Although I've spent the last ten years working in the industry and I have to say I have never heard one word mentioned about mll or anything of the sort, I also work closely with tv engineers who are blissfully unaware of it:confused:

As mentioned earlier I have known many consumers to complain of clouding on lcd and led panels but with Panasonic plasma's I've never know any issues. My boss has been working in the business as long as you and also owned 3 Panny plasma's over as many years and never noticed anything.

I believe the vast majority of consumers dont care about these sort of things anyway, like your old man they just want to watch tv. I have been running a g20 at work trying to see these floating blacks for a good while now and just cant see it, I don't dispute that there is an issue but I haven't seen it and I've been looking hard.

Also just out of interest which of these older gen models are you refering to being better. My dad sold an old hitachi pd3000 to a mate of mine about 4 years ago, I went round his the other day to install sky for him and was surprised at how good the image was with sd, easily on par with some of the best sets nowadays.

Well in recent years there's been faulty power supplies (premature failing), Purple snakes, Faulty panels (vertical green line) rising Blacks & now floating blacks.....quite enough to be going on with I think :D

For what it's worth I don't believe Panasonic set out to scupper the set, however they might well set out to initially make it look blacker than the competition knowing they can't maintain that level ;)

And the silly part regarding the quality of components is that I doubt very much if it would cost even £100 (Panel excluded) to use the best available but I guess over several million sets this will add up :)
 

Craig uk

Well-known Member
Well in recent years there's been faulty power supplies (premature failing), Purple snakes, Faulty panels (vertical green line) rising Blacks & now floating blacks.....quite enough to be going on with I think :D

Yes all things I'm familiar with, but floating blacks, rising blacks and purple snakes are issue's 85% of consumers will not notice or care about.

I do believe that if these faults were that much of an issue I would have seen at least one Panasonic returned with these faults in the last 5 years! I would estimate my employer has probably sold over 500 g20's already this quarter and no complaints, probably 50 vt20's and god know how many g and v10's last year, not one returned with any of the above faults, the most common issues by far are sets stuck in standby and lines of pixels out which is caused by the sus drive board failing.

We are all looking for perfection nowadays which is all well and good, Pioneer are the only manufacturer to come close, if thats what everyone expects then they should have gone and got one when they were available...Pioneer would probably still be producing flatpanels if they had, instead most consumers bought any old set to do the job, and the minority who did have the money chose style over substance and bought a massive Samsung to look lovely on the wall when switched off or to go with the rooms decor and keep the missus happy imo.

I have been impressed with what I've seen of the G20 and intend on buying a v20 monday, if I see any issues mentioned above or excessive phosphor trails then I will of course be swapping for something else but I think Phil touched on this in his reviews, these concerns may well be there but if a highly experience reviewer struggled to see them then I would guess the rest of us won't have a problem.
 

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