The Full Picture

Bumtious

Banned
Warning this will be a long post and don't read it if you are of a weak disposition.

I've started this thread as a discussion to the state of the industry rather than “spam” other threads.
I completely agree with the observations that some posts that are actually trying to genuinely open people eyes to what is happening and how marketing is being used to manipulate you and mask the truth can be interpreted as bias and is taking other threads off topic.

I have always given the message that beauty is in the eye of the purchaser, and ALWAYS suggested you judge for yourself, and the ONLY way to do this is to get off your butt and go look. However today we have this information source called the Internet, which is awash with information. Thing is it's easy to be anonymous if you choose and there is so much differing opinion that's it's hard to work out what is correct and what is not.

I am totally independent, I have no relationship with any advertiser, manufacturer or dealer to pander too and keep sweet. Because of that I'm able to tell it how it is. The problem for some here is that I'm not telling you what you want to hear.

Let's go back a bit, I brought a Pioneer 508XD to replace a 507XD, in comparison the 508 was a revolutionary upgrade to the 507 and arguably even more so against the competition. BUT, before I brought it I compared it in my home by arrangement with my chosen dealer. Once I was convinced the 508 was better I sold my 597 and purchased the. Then when a LX508 came out 2 months later out I did the same thing and then purchased that. AND LOST MONEY. Then when a LX6080 appeared I was asked by a dealer to look at that and compare it to a LX508, I was so impressed with the difference that a 60” made, and the performance of it again I sold my LX508 and purchased the LX6080, and again lost money. When the LX6090 came along again I looked and decided that it was not worth changing and waited for a KRP, whilst all the time looking at other makes and seeing clearly without taking them home that were not as good as what I had. When the KRP arrived I changed in a heartbeat. That was a year after I had purchased the 6080. Now I have just had a Panasonic 50TV20 in my home and have just gone through the same exercise, because like many of you here I am a gadget and technology geek and was genuinely excited about 3D and the marketing claims made by dealers, review sites and the manufacturer. So I have done what I always have done, used the information from the web and got off my butt and done something about researching it, and then as I've done for many years now, shared my findings based on years of experience and knowledge with you...free of any ties and free of any payment for doing it.

AND I'M SORRY IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR, I'm disappointed too, when my 600 dies I don't know what I'm going to buy. I was hoping to have a 65VT20.

This VT20 IS the best set available right now, no doubt about it, but is not as good IMHO with what I already have, for the reasons I have clearly stated elsewhere.

Panasonic have really made strides with this set and it is a revolutionary change to anything else they have ever produced just like the 8G set were for Pioneer. BUT its' not the level of a 9G Pioneer, which is what I already have, so because I have done my own research and shred my findings does not make me biased, I am also a consumer like you are. And my tests are honest unbiased feedback. I could have kept this VT20, the dealer was not bothered about putting it on display because there is no backup stock, and if it is not there he can sell other sets instead. But he got it back.

The VT20 a revolutionary set, no doubt, but lest get it into prospective, yes it's got 3D, thats no use to me as I can't watch it nor can anyone in my family, Ive done that test and I am very clear on that, its too hard to watch and enjoy. FOR ME. But it may be ok for you but a short demo on your own IS NOT enough to be able to be sure about this IMHO and that's all I'm warning you about. The manufacturers are warning you that you may experience this that or the other, why because they don't really know how it will affect everyone, so they have to cover themselves. That's not me being biased, it me reading what's in front of me!

There is another reason why I am nervous about buying a Panasonic product at the moment. It's because of the world wide reported issues with previous sets. Now none of us really know just how big a problem this is and we need to understand why.

The problem is the Internet and the fact that so many people are contributing, and quite rightly so. That's what sites like this are for.

I went to visit Chris last week and he has just had his G10 repaired. He believed it was far better, but that is because he did not really know and he took me up on my free offer of help. I had just come from spending 4 hours staring at a KRP500 and know what I was seeing, as soon as I walked into Chris's lounge it was clear that something was very wrong, and remember this had just been repaired. I saw other problems too. Now Chris saw all the measurements, and I asked him what he wanted to do, once he answered I than asked if he knew what false contouring and floating blacks were, he did not, I asked do you want to know, he said yes so I showed him. So now educated and armed with readings Chris went to his dealer and he now has a result overnight.

Now as the VT20 stands its black levels on the brand new set I measured has a better pixel standby level (black idling level) than a Pioneer 8G, it as good as a 9G 5090/6090 and nowhere near as good as a 500/600 A or M KRP. IF as predicted AND confirmed by Panasonic that its 2010 models will ALL experience a designed MLL rise then the VT20 WILL not end up with black levels as good as a 8G Pioneer, because there is only a 0.002 FL difference now (not a 0.02) that is much brighter than 0.002 difference and is being misunderstood in posts I'm seeing here.

Let's move on to the next thing, and that is how this issue is being spun/masked. When I first got my hands on a 5090 (posts are all still lurking) I calibrated it it out of the box in movie mode and shared them, as the set bedded in I changed them and shared those. When the set had 220 plus hours on it I attempted to calibrate it using the ISF modes and discovered a problem. That was a flickering problem if the set was used in standard or ISF mode with drive mode 2 used, that is what a Sky HD box required. I reported my findings to the correct senior Pioneer engineer and he came down and we spend 4 hours running tests. We even opened 2 other 5090 and tested them. We also tested a KRP 600M and a 6090. The 60” sets were fine but the 5090 flickered on all the sets we tested. An urgent report was sent to Japan and a fix came back 6 weeks later, it did not work, so another fix was done and 4 weeks later it was applied. That worked, BUT during this time I was under strict instructions to keep quiet. It did not get discovered by owner for some time and when it did I co ordinated it and told people what to do with Pioneer and so it was kept quiet. Anyone who saw this issue had it fixed, and the fix was applied to all new sets coming out of the factory. The Pioneer HDCP issue is still on their web site as this resulted in totally failure, so it had to be made public but will only be fixed if someone had the failure, no fix was done to prevent failure. Same with the Pio flicker, if the customer doesn't think its broken we don't need to fix it. The thing with the flicker her is that it was obvious so there was no argument. What we have here with the Panasonic sets is different, they are stating that its by design, therefore there is nothing to fix.

In my book that's bull, but sadly it's up to US to prove otherwise.

Another example, the 9G Pioneers were underpriced IMHO, it was a last ditched attempt for Pioneer to stay in the flat panel business. Sadly it failed but, to try to offer the sets at lower prices without sacrificing the overall quality, they cut corners. How by rejected less few imperfect panels, IE panels with dead or stuck pixels. Also rejecting fewer buzzing panels where the damping resin had not taken properly on the power supplies. That means lower production losses. To cover themselves they clearly stated in the instruction books that the sets may buzz and that's normal, and that you may discover so dead or stuck pixels and a few is the nature of the technology. Now most TV instruction books will state this, so do some dealer web sites and legally that covers them.

Now before any Pio owners rush to the phone, my 600 has a dead pixel and always has, and its the only Pio set I have owned that I can hear buzz, but neither bother me and I have ABSOLUTELY NO chance of anything being done because it is within manufacturing tolerances.

The difference with the MLL issue with Panny is that it is not stated in the instruction book that it is by design and is with manufacturing tolerances. I'm no lawyer but I think it can be argued that that is not what you have brought into. We are buying into black levels being what they are when the set is purchased. My concern with this is Panasonics previous handling of the purple snake issue, and the way they are dealing with the ever increasing number of sets that are now rearing their heads. NOW if this MLL rise was indeed slight and not noticeable it would be fine. The problem here is that this issue is being seen by Mr Average Joe. When that happens sorry but that becomes a bit more serious.

The next thing is reviews, I have said till I'm blue in the face that it is not "what is being said", it is "what is NOT being said". I have no restrictions on what I find, others hands are tied by manufacturer and advertising relationships. If you go too far with the your findings manufacturers don't like it, that means possible advertising given to publications giving more favourable reviews and sets being held back for review, and every publication wants a first exclusive. Take reviews as opinions and understand the possible restrictions that the reviewer may be under. I'm not saying they all are but the vast majority are. This is all business and you must remember that. Reviews are also opinions based on non linear standards and individual opinion coupled with restrictions on what CAN'T be said. I can go into more here but I won't.

Nearly done, marketing and sales spiel. This is the art of taking a strength or weakness and playing one off against the other so highlight the plus points of a product you are trying to sell. And you can spin it in whatever way you want to try to persuade your audience.

2 things here, lets take dithering, this is a method used By Pioneer and almost not by Panasonic. No dithering produces a clean smoother image, but has side effects. 5 main ones, false contouring, flickering, lower colour accuracy/gradations and lower greyscale definition. Dithering solves all these. So with dithering you get 1 flaw instead of 5. Now which you prefer is up to you, but you need to know these flaws and in reviews that sort of detail is not explained because it is too technical for the mass to fully understand.

Next dynamic range and contrast. These are 2 different things. Contrast is the difference between light and dark content in the picture together, dynamic range is the sets ability to show the darkest image and the brightest image, it's subtle but different. The truth is that the dynamic range of Panasonic sets is better than a Pioneer 9G but its contrast is not. ALL LCD's have a wider dynamic range than both of them but have lousy contrast.

It's taken me some thinking on how to explain the so here goes.

Now I AGREE the VT20's dynamic range is wider than the Pioneers, its actually quite a bit wider, BUT it always has been in every recent range. The 70's the 80's the G10's and now the 20's and all the pro sets. Yes it goes brighter, but it does not go darker. Now this dynamic range is great if you can use it all well under normal viewing conditions, you can't its too bright. A TV is a light source and you need to be able to view it comfortably. A TV as a light source is very low, a 40 watt bulb will light a room and you can read from it, you can't from a TV. Your eyes should not be squinting if the picture goes bright.

EG 0 being black and say 30 being a more than enough level of brightness. The Panny will go from say 5- 50, you only need 5-30 the Pio will go 1-40, you only need 1-30. LCD's will go 10-80 but you need 10-30. In the true needed range for a normal viewing environment of an ISF calibrated set you usually only need to go up to 30 to maintain correct iris movement and you will have more than enough brightness at this level. All sets will do it but not all sets have the dark level needed or can produce the proper contrast needed for a truly good image.

Extra brightness is used in 2 ways, firstly for a set in a very bright environment and rightly so or TO MASK DEFICIENCIES in the dark areas of the picture.

This is done by tricking your eyes, and there is a massive theory section that calibrators have to understand here within the ISF manual.

A bright picture closes your iris, when that happens when watching a TV YOU CANT SEE THE DARK PARTS OF THE IMAGE. If the image goes dark overall your iris need to open up, that is quick but takes time for the sensitivity of your eye to settle to the dark information, but as it does the picture may go bright and your iris closes again, yada yada. Also if the room is too dark your iris over compensates as the eye is sensitive to the dark but you can't see colour in the dark because colour need light and light is a temperature. The brighter it is the hotter it is. But an overbright picture or a bright environment closes the iris and you think that you are seeing good blacks, thats is why in a shop you think the black are good. The actual reality is you cant see the black becuse your iris is not open enough to see them.

Watching TV with your iris working hard is subconsciously fatiguing. And when calibrating you don't use the full dynamic range, UNLESS the room is really bright and having the extra brightness can help in day light but in daylight you can't see the dark parts of a picture. Anyway in a normal and typical viewing environment BOTH the pannies and the Pios work and set correctly should show the same brightness levels. Its at the dark level where the Pioneer has it. Because that goes seriously dark, in fact the standby idling level of the pixels on a 60” KRP is ONE NOTCH above being completely off, it's that dark and because of that there is greater contrast. Plasma cells are a gass and they show brightness by discharging, but they have to be in standby and that standby is the black idling level and a 9G pioneer sets the standard that everyone else is striving to match. To compensate for this shortfall, & I will use the VT20 here at dark levels the gamma is skewed to bring out shadow detail, that is so that strength can be used to counter the pioneers black level, now Pioneer also skew the gamma to over emphasise the black level and that crushes black, but its fixable with calibration without compromising black levels, you just have to know what to do. Both tricks are done to appeal to the mass target audience. But where you can fix Pios gamma you can't fix Pannies because you don't have the control and it does not have the black levels so you have to keep the gamma skewed to bring out the shadow detail so it's above the idling level. And because the Panny hardly uses any dithering black and grey gradation detail is absent, resulting in a mess when subtle shade of grey are needed. The Being Human trailer on BBC HD shows this difference up as night and day. The Pios resolve this detail with ease. There are certain tricks I do with a Pio when calibrating to fix shadow detail. Turb007 saw it first hand on Saturday. Set up properly contrast and shadow detail the pio still has it, the same with colour accuracy, and this is all down to the dithering employed. And again as part of the cost cutting and the variation in the standard of component tolerances this can result in one example of a model showing slightly more noise than another. I have 2 4280 8G sets and one is slightly more noisy than the other but my KRP is really clean. That is another price paid for cost cutting.

Finally I will use an analogy to explain why a high end more expensive sets usually provide a better image.

Take a picture of your car and then make several prints on the same printer using different grades of paper. The picture is the same one from the same source but the result is different. Use 80gsm, 100gsm, Conqueror letter standard paper and photographic paper. The picture is the same but the stability, integrity and overall presentation is better with the higher spec paper.

A sub £1000 set, say a G20 is 80gsm, a V20 would be 100gsm, a VT20 would be Conqueror, and a KRP is photographic.

Final point, each grade of print may produce more than enough quality to meet you requirements, which one you choose is up to you. The problem is that you are not being told the full picture. All I'm trying to do is bring you the full picture.

To sum up The VT20 is the best set IMHO that is currently available, but there are clouds in the way, and where many traits have been fixed, there are some traits mainly caused around the lack dithering and by the idling standby levels that are still there and stopping me changing. But it's the possible MLL rise that really puts me off. I do believe this will be addressed and now its in the public domain can't be ignored and will have to be addressed. But it may be too late for this year's range.

I believe this set is a promise of what is to come and providing Panasonic don't pull out of the flat panel market, its reported that Panasonic are reducing investment into consumer electronics by 2/3 with non profitable lines to go first and flat panels is NOT profitable for them, I believe that next year we will see something really special. But it will cost, the VT20 is the same price as a Pio 5090, yes it has 3D and nice features which is new technology but its picture stability, while good, is still not at KRP level. And the older but more advanced technology is still in front here. I reckon that Panny will produce a set that while not being perfect will meet the requirements of the most decerning next year but will cost between £2500 and £3000 for a 50” set and I feel this is right as they would be then catering for every budget and every quality requirement, and quality does cost.

PS I have just realised something, why I like the look of it and why it looks expensive and this is something being missed in reviews.

While the likes of Sony and Samsung sets look modern, and fit into a modern decor, the VT20 looks to have the same sort of bezel as Fujitsu sets had. This look for me is expensive and classy.

B

Lets keep the VT thread for that and the black thread for that.

Lets discuss the industry and sales and marketing techniques here for all makes, then we can be sure of what we are buying into.

I've been just as guilty, my days at Currys.

Q:Who are Matusi
A: An amalgum of contempory componants from the best manufacturers without the cost of a known brand on the front. :rotfl:
 
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RichWalk

Active Member
Steve, anyone else out there manufacturer wise showing 'promise' as to making a progressive high end set?

I too have seen the articles on Panasonics investment re-direction and I am still sceptical about just what will happen in 2011. If in '09 Panny thought they could get away with the Z1 at over £4K, what, if they do use more Kuro tech are those panels going to be sold at?? Z2 at £6K?;)

Thanks again for your valued observations:D
 

paulr2006

Distinguished Member
Yes, thanks Steve very helpful post :)

I also read an article saying Panasonic would return to profit this year with Plasma, it's hard to figure out how though when they are so late getting the products out & so slow at getting stock to dealers so people can actually buy them! Of course they might be working on the basis of creating demand by holding stock back but I wonder how many people get fed up & buy alternatives from companies who can produce the goods?
 

Majestic Banana

Active Member
Thanks for the long, interesting, and informative posting. I agree that keeping these discussion out of the VT20 thread is a good idea. Of course people interested in the VT20 are certainly going to follow this thread too, but since this new thread has a neutral title, people are less likely to be defensive from any particular position.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the VT20 has greater colour depth than the KURO. Did I imagine that, or is that true? I mean the ability to represent shades of colour accurately. If that's true, then presumably less dithering is required. If that's not true, then less dithering is presumably just a choice they made, which results in some drawbacks too.
 

ChefDude

Standard Member
Can i just say, what a super article. great read.

Am I to deduce that 5090 panels are actually different from 6090 panels (sizes aside)?
 

Bumtious

Banned
I seem to remember reading somewhere that the VT20 has greater colour depth than the KURO. Did I imagine that, or is that true? I mean the ability to represent shades of colour accurately. If that's true, then presumably less dithering is required. If that's not true, then less dithering is presumably just a choice they made, which results in some drawbacks too.

I dont think it has more depth, I think is just gives the impression of being brighter and more vivid to make it look like there is more depth, it certainly does not have the subtle gradations that can be achieved using dithering.

The accuracy of skin tones was hard to achieve and I admit the set had not bedded in yet, but the set still had a green push that I could not cure, and when a set beds in its green that gets stronger as blue and red decay quicker. The Pios countered this and is there in posts I made long ago.

Saw one of the Samsung 3D LCDs yesterday and this was seriously vivid and rich, but thats all masking the clouding of the screen when dark and again local dimming is used to mask this and try to get the screen black. If you think Pannies suffer from floating blacks this seriously puts the F into floating. Basically its crap.

The new Sonys do it but its no where near as dramatic and far better controlled, still crap, but better.
 

robin78

Active Member
"......IF as predicted AND confirmed by Panasonic that its 2010 models will ALL experience a designed MLL rise then the VT20....."

I´m pretty confident that Panasonic resolved it for this years series, however they can´t say so as they maintain at their stance that it was normal behavior on the 2009 sets. If they would have said they had "resolved" it for 2010 it would have automatically implied that it was flawed in last year´s series. So instead they have stated MLL is a intended feature but tweaked it a bit for 2010.
My guess is that MLL rise algorithms have been there for years but somehow they made a mistake in the 2009 series like usual with Panasonic they prefer to downplay the issue hoping to avoid Toyota like recalls/damages.

BTW MLL IS a necessary evil, as the panel gets older it will be more difficult to excite the gas into it´s ready state. If you don´t increase the pre charge strength you end up like the Pioneer in this thread: http://www.avforums.com/forums/plas...ixels-problem-centre-screen.html#post12089749 were pixels start to fail to fire when they should
 
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dbwinter

Well-known Member
I too am coming from a Pioneer PDP-507XD and am at a loss for what to replace it with (it's faulty so it will be replaced).

The obvious choice was the Panasonic VT20 but since it flickers badly and has many faults, I cannot clearly see other possibilities.

There is the:

Samsung PS50C7000 (plasma)

LG 55LE8900 (LCD)

Sharp Quattron (LCD)

I notice all faults and would consider myself a videophile.

Where do I and others go for a high end TV?
 

Bumtious

Banned
Can i just say, what a super article. great read.

Am I to deduce that 5090 panels are actually different from 6090 panels (sizes aside)?

No, the problem was in the voltage thresholds used in the 5090. Both sets had separate drive sequences to manage the dark and light parts of the picture, it was the setting in the 50" that was wrong as the management of the picture switched between the circuitry controlling the light parts of the picture and the dark parts. It was too corse and and manifested itself as colour flicker as the two circuits were fighting for control of the picture.
 

Bumtious

Banned
I too am coming from a Pioneer PDP-507XD and am at a loss for what to replace it with (it's faulty so it will be replaced).

The obvious choice was the Panasonic VT20 but since it flickers badly and has many faults, I cannot clearly see other possibilities.

There is the:

Samsung PS50C7000 (plasma)

LG 55LE8900 (LCD)

Sharp Quattron (LCD)

I notice all faults and would consider myself a videophile.

Where do I and others go for a high end TV?

Good question and I don't know. BUT the VT20 is definately an upgrade from a 507. The blacks on a 507 are nowhere as good as a VT20, and the 507 suffered from serious contrast shifts.

The new LGs look nice but.....retention, how soon must you buy.
 
G

gazeds

Guest
I dont think it has more depth, I think is just gives the impression of being brighter and more vivid to make it look like there is more depth, it certainly does not have the subtle gradations that can be achieved using dithering.

The accuracy of skin tones was hard to achieve and I admit the set had not bedded in yet, but the set still had a green push that I could not cure, and when a set beds in its green that gets stronger as blue and red decay quicker. The Pios countered this and is there in posts I made long ago.

Saw one of the Samsung 3D LCDs yesterday and this was seriously vivid and rich, but thats all masking the clouding of the screen when dark and again local dimming is used to mask this and try to get the screen black. If you think Pannies suffer from floating blacks this seriously puts the F into floating. Basically its crap.

The new Sonys do it but its no where near as dramatic and far better controlled, still crap, but better.
it appears to me every brand of tv seems to be crap appart from pioneer
 

Bumtious

Banned
"......IF as predicted AND confirmed by Panasonic that its 2010 models will ALL experience a designed MLL rise then the VT20....."

I´m pretty confident that Panasonic resolved it for this years series, however they can´t say so as they maintain at their stance that it was normal behavior on the 2009 sets. If they would have said they had "resolved" it for 2010 it would have automatically implied that it was flawed in last year´s series. So instead they have stated MLL is a intended feature but tweaked it a bit for 2010.
My guess is that MLL rise algorithms have been there for years but somehow they made a mistake in the 2009 series like usual with Panasonic they prefer to downplay the issue hoping to avoid Toyota like recalls/damages.

BTW MLL IS a necessary evil, as the panel gets older it will be more difficult to excite the gas into it´s ready state. If you don´t increase the pre charge strength you end up like the Pioneer in this thread: http://www.avforums.com/forums/plas...ixels-problem-centre-screen.html#post12089749 were pixels start to fail to fire when they should

THIS REALLY WINDS ME UP!!

Right, so fix them, dont leave 2009 customer stuffed!!!!

What is it, a cover up so they dont have to fix 2009 sets, or a cover up not to hurt 2010 sales.

Either way its treating their customers with blatent contempt.

Which is it.
 

Bumtious

Banned
it appears to me every brand of tv seems to be crap appart from pioneer

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

That is not what I'm saying, in the last 2 years we have lost the last 2 higher end producers, Fujitsu and Pioneer, the sets of that quality were too expensice to produce for those companies to maintain a presence in a market dominated by cheaper sets.

Read the gsm analogy.

DBwinter wants to replace a high end set, the highest end set there is right now domestically is the VT20, look if as claimed Panasonic have corrected the MLL rise, great, in which case theres the replacement, no doubt, but we wont know untill new owners have racked up some hours. The fact that supply of the VT20 is limited, by the time they are available hopefully we may know more, but right now theway people who have issues with 2009 sets are being treated, I am suggesting sensible thoughtfull caution.
 
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robin78

Active Member
THIS REALLY WINDS ME UP!!

Right, so fix them, dont leave 2009 customer stuffed!!!!

What is it, a cover up so they dont have to fix 2009 sets, or a cover up not to hurt 2010 sales.

Either way its treating their customers with blatent contempt.

Which is it.

Panasonic is not a non-profit organization so probably made their calculations was was the cheapest way to handle it and came to the conclusion that proper customer care was to expensive. Now a days you see it with a lot of brands and products. Once you have handed over your money you typically have to fight to get something back.
 

dbwinter

Well-known Member
Good question and I don't know. BUT the VT20 is definately an upgrade from a 507. The blacks on a 507 are nowhere as good as a VT20, and the 507 suffered from serious contrast shifts.

The new LGs look nice but.....retention, how soon must you buy.

It does seem that all of the current plasma and LCD manufacturers screens are inherently faulty. i.e. you could buy any of the screens and take them back requesting your money back.

I am having the Pioneer 507 replaced by John Lewis - they are giving me £999 towards another screen.

My requirements are:

  1. No flicker
  2. No floating blacks
  3. Good screen uniformity
  4. Good blacks
  5. Minimal lag
  6. No buzzing
The 2010 Samsung PS50C7000 might be the closest TV to meet these requirements but am open to any ideas under £3k.
 

robin78

Active Member
It does seem that all of the current plasma and LCD manufacturers screens are inherently faulty. i.e. you could buy any of the screens and take them back requesting your money back.

The 2010 Samsung PS50C7000 might be the closest TV to meet these requirements but am open to any ideas under £3k.

It seems there is a supply problem with that set ( http://www.avforums.com/forums/3d-p...ng-reviews-owners-thread-22.html#post12147525 ) , two people report problems with 3D and one with severe IR

"PS: It does seem that all of the current plasma and LCD manufacturers screens are inherently faulty" I think end users expectations of standards (at least those on this forum) has increased.
There was never a perfect display, Back in the 1960's a TV was considered functioning if it could produce some noisy black and white image after endless fiddling with the indoor antenna. Americans have watched white shirts displayed as pink for many years on their NTSC ("Never the same color") TV´s while PAL users had to live with 50i refresh rate flicker (until 100Hz technology changed it into a flicker free but full of judder experience) . Early LCD's were awful. The black level of a bad V10 still beats the black levels of my PX60 (but nobody ever complained about the black values of that series)
 
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QBSBuck

Novice Member
OMG...I am upto 'Extra brightness...' I'll come back soon, Dinner awaits. Awesome post!!
 

dbwinter

Well-known Member
It seems there is a supply problem with that set ( http://www.avforums.com/forums/3d-p...ng-reviews-owners-thread-22.html#post12147525 ) , two people report problems with 3D and one with severe IR

"PS: It does seem that all of the current plasma and LCD manufacturers screens are inherently faulty" I think end users expectations of standards (at least those on this forum) has increased.
There was never a perfect display, Back in the 1960's a TV was considered functioning if it could produce some noisy black and white image after endless fiddling with the indoor antenna. Americans have watched white shirts displayed as pink for many years on their NTSC ("Never the same color") TV´s while PAL users had to live with 50i refresh rate flicker (until 100Hz technology changed it into a flicker free but full of judder experience) . Early LCD's were awful. The black level of a bad V10 still beats the black levels of my PX60 (but nobody ever complained about the black values of that series)

When I purchased my Pioneer 507, it was definitely a cut above (and also double the price) of any other TV. In fact, I think there was only the Fujitsu at the time that was better.

Then the KUROs were released and despite the black level deficit on the 507, up until it went faulty in year 3, I truly believed I had hit gold.

My wife and I demo'ed the VT20 for several hours and despite a great picture, the inherent flicker flaw left us with our mouths dropped : what are we going to do?

Give up home cinema or buy a second hand KURO and hope for the best?
 

stranger

Well-known Member
When I purchased my Pioneer 507, it was definitely a cut above (and also double the price) of any other TV. In fact, I think there was only the Fujitsu at the time that was better.

Then the KUROs were released and despite the black level deficit on the 507, up until it went faulty in year 3, I truly believed I had hit gold.

My wife and I demo'ed the VT20 for several hours and despite a great picture, the inherent flicker flaw left us with our mouths dropped : what are we going to do?

Give up home cinema or buy a second hand KURO and hope for the best?

Buy a second hand Kuro and get the best.
 

Jazz Monkey Jr

Distinguished Member
Thanks for the post, interesting reading.

I am holding off buying a VT20 until it is confirmed there are no black level rises, do you intend to check the black levels after 1000 hours?

Also if I was looking for a 60" Kuro what is the model number I need to look for?
 

Inferno

Distinguished Member

zirconium

Active Member
Great post thanks, and thanks to apple for the CMD "M" button :D.

I am also looking for a new TV, not had one for 2 months and getting desperate.

does anyone have views on the Phillips 46PFL9074? all the reviews I read give it 90% higher or 4.5 / 5.

I have my name down for a VT20 but now I am thinking 9704 might be better.

Again thanks for your long post.

Shaun
 
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