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The Fujitsu 40-series story

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Pat Marcus, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. Pat Marcus

    Pat Marcus
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    OK guys. Im delighted to tell you that I have now got my lovely 50" UK model (US spec) Fujitsu 40-series panel.
    Id like to echo Dilsher's comments in the "50hz compatibility" thread and thank MAW for his impartial advice, Mark and Kash at Fujitsu for their tireless answering of my questions, Dave at Music matters in Solihull for working late into last night,installing it and, in advance to Piers who is coming round at 11:00 today to do the ISF calibration.

    So, what's it like ?

    First the good. (there isnt really any bad - just a few questions)

    1. I sit only 2.6 metres from the screen and the overall Picture quality is good, very good, extremely good.
    2. There is absolutely no motion blur on football or other fast moving sport, even when the image is delivered via composite.
    3. Colour and contrast, even on the factory settings are fine. Blacks are rich and deep, as is typical of a panel that uses Panasonic glass. We did some basic setup using a comprehensive US produced AV setup disc and lowered the blue and green content...and laughed at the simplistic tone with which the presenters delivered the instructions.
    4. The range of picture tweaking options is stunning and endlessly sophisticated. There is nothing you cant tweak and colour temperature can be varied either using presets or "manually"
    5. The panel has loads of inputs - HDCP HDMI, non HDCP DVi, 2 x Component, SVideo, RS232, Dsub, composite but no scart. Remember this is NOT a TV and therefore no scart, no tuners, no media box - just quality engineering.
    6. It isnt physically too big - considerably smaller the Pio 505XDE and I think, looks quite nice with a silver bezel.

    I'll give a bigger report later, after piers has been but Ive got to tear myself away for an hour to go the gym. Otherwise I wont have earned an afternoon sitting in front of it, eating and drinking.


    First some questions :

    1. My freeview box (Nokia 221T) wont output S-video. This means that I cant take it into the Meridian to scale and output via HDMi. I see myself as having several options :
    a) Replace the Nokia with a Netgem box, IF it ouputs Component via its scart, which Ive been led to believe, it can. This can then be piped into the meridian
    b) Replace the Nokia with a.n.other freeview box that DOES output S-video and this can be piped into the meridian
    c) Keep the Nokia and pipe it directly into the panel, either by means of a JS tech RGB to component box or, via an RGB to VGA box/converter.

    At the moment I am running composite out of the freeview box in 16:9. Its being taken into the VCR, converted to 4:3 and S-video and outputted into the panel. Aargh !
    Any advice please ?

    2. My VCR (a 2 yr old JVC SVHS device) seems only to output 4:3, even if the film or recorded broadcast is 16:9. When its piped straight into the panel, this can be manipulated without too much degradation of quality. When its piped into the meridian, HDMI takes over and sends it to the screen in its native aspect ratio and it cant be manipulated.

    Aargh. I really wanted the meridian to control and upscale everything. HDMi is a mixed blessing, it seems.
     
  2. dilsher

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    woohooo..Pat is the first on here to have it running! sounss perfect Pat mate..say Hi to Piers and report back later for us..i need to go up to fookin useless Reading today so will look forward to reading (!!!) it tonight!


    Oh Pat...what's the model number? And what presets are best until I get it ISFed please!!!

    Ta

    Dil
     
  3. Dutch

    Dutch
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    Hi Pat,

    Congtatulations on your new Fujitsu. I expect Piers has done his magic by now - he did an ace job on my MXE yesterday. :thumbsup:

    Steve
     
  4. dilsher

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    cheeky bump!
     
  5. Rahmorak

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    Hungry for more info. :)
     
  6. Pat Marcus

    Pat Marcus
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    People, I'm back.
    I've now had the panel for a whole weekend and we are about 8 hours into its life.
    As I write this, I sit on front of a very poor quality 4:3 recording of Deep Space 9, scaled by the DVD player to 16:9 at 720p and sent via hdmi into the panel. It's really rather nice - Im less sure about the acting.

    So, a few more facts :

    1. Piers is a genius and a thoroughly nice man to boot. Nothing was too much trouble for him over the two separate visits that he made to my house this weekend, so keen was he to produce the optimum picture quality of the panel.
    He managed to improve on an already excellent DVD picture to one that is frankly jaw-droppingly outstanding.
    This is a panel that is ruthlessly revealing of poor quality sources and as such does not relish the lower quality output from freeview. Even so, by the time he left today, the freeview picture was far better than I could have ever imagined.
    Listen to me, plasma owners when I tell you that you MUST get this calibration done. If you don't, you really aren't getting the best from your panel. It is not just a subjective difference for those with good eyesight and its not something that you can put off til tomorrow. Getting your panel ISFed will completely transform your viewing experience and might even save your marriage. Get in touch with Piers or Gordon and prepare to be amazed.

    In addition to the ISF calibration and optimisation , Piers also experimented with a variety of different JS technology devices to see how each of the inputs responds to a converted signal.
    THE PANEL DOES NOT MUCH LIKE RGB-TO-VGA CONVERTED IMAGES. This came as a huge surprise, given that the Panasonic 50" panels thrive on this. The RGB source was a nokia 221T freeview box.
    The picture was much better via RGB-TO-COMPONENT CONVERSION and surprisingly, better still using RGB-TO-SVIDEO CONVERSION.
    The best freeview digital TV picture was achieved by converting the RGB to Svideo using a JS tech box and then piped directly into the SVIDEO input on the panel. The RGB scart lead was from Ixos, the S-video cable, an expensive item from the Nordost Silver Spiral range.

    I've now tried the panel at both 720p and 1080i, using the scaler built into the meridian dvd player. They are both good, if different. I think that 720p just takes the crown in terms of clarity and edge definition.

    The panel is very quiet, in spite of having a couple of fans. It is just audible in a silent room and certainly doesn't intrude.

    The panel is surprisingly bright. Having first encountered it at the Bristol show where my interest was piqued, the panel looked "dark" in a "really good blacks but not as bright as a pio" way. In fact, switch off the devious "ambient light sensor" and the panel brightens considerably with rich lustrous reds, whilst maintaining those deliciously deep myriad shades of black and grey.

    Like most panels, the Fujitsu come set with Blue and green far too strongly accentuated. ISFing will sort this out properly but even a good setup disk like DVE or AVIA will help a little.

    The remote control..........is pathetic for a panel costing nearly £5k. Compared to a pioneer remote, its an absolute insult. It looks and feels cheap. Quickly program its buttons into something else and then hide it, in case anyone else sees. Do not speak of it to anyone.

    Right, that's all for now. Feel free to email any questions or post them here. If I cant answer them, Piers or MAW probably can.
     
  7. cajieboy

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    Pat, looks like you have a winner fantastic display, and congratulations all around. I've been reading every word w/great interests. Thanks a million for posting your opinions, critique and comments on your new P50/40.

    PS: Can I take your comments to mean that the AVM II is quite adequate and up to the task of delivering superb PQ without the help of an external processor??
     
  8. Jazz Monkey Jr

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    Can you post the dimensions of the panel and just the screen and how far it sits of the wall so I can make a template for my fireplace, as the missus thinks 50" will be too big. :eek:

    Are you running it in on low contrast etc. for the first 200 hours?

    Can you post a pic of the panel and connections?

    Thanks

    Mal
     
  9. Rahmorak

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    Thanks for the update Pat.

    If you have seen both, how would you say this compares to the Pio 505? (or Piers/MAW)

    I must admit I was hoping AVMII would mean the Fuji was pretty forgiving of SKy+/Freeview.
     
  10. NicolasB

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    Do you mean that you're scaling an SD resolution DVD image up to 720p and then feeding it to the screen? If so, that doesn't tell us very much about the screen's performance on HD source material. And, indeed, it's not surprising that there's very little difference between that and feeding it directly - if anything, having the player scale the image to 1280x720 and then the screen scale it a second time to 1366x768 is likely to look slightly worse than having the screen scale straight from SD to 1366x768. So, do you have a high-definition source you could try it out with?

    I think the most important questions are: a) if you are feeding a digital signal into the screen that is already at the screen's native resolution (the only setup that makes sense if you're using an external scaler) does this disable all of the AVM II features? and b) can you make this work if the source material has HDCP encryption? (Not easy to test the second one, I know!)
     
  11. MAW

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    It's easy to test the second, but we already know the answer. HDMI does not take native, DVI does but is not HDCP or 50Hz, might do 75Hz. Native at 60 certainly bypasses all panel processing on all previous Fujitsus, I'd be comfortable assuming it's still the case.
     
  12. TheAvalanche

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    AVM (1 and 2) is a subfield management processor. It is one chip (as opposed to other plasmas which use lots of different chips for different tasks). The AVM "sits on the glass". It does everything in one place - no staging between components/chips - and can perform subpixel management to produce the best motion.

    These single chip processors can perform functions pertaining to the Glass Phosphor driving scheme whilst simulataneously performing the frame deinterlacing and scaling functions, all within 60/50 hz cycles. Thru subfield processing. These chips have to be mounted on the glass, there is too much at stake to be attaching umbilicals to these single chip engines.

    If feeding native rate, the avm will not scale the image. Many people over here just think the AVM processor is a scaler and deinterlacer. It is far more advanced than that, and the reason why it is better than the Panasoic, even though both use the same glass.

    Take a search on AVS to look at some experienced people (rogo et al) explain why single subfield processors are better.
     
  13. NicolasB

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    MAW, assuming all of what you've just said is correct (and I'm sure it is) would you agree that there cannot be any point in using an external scaler with the Fujitsu panel under any circumstances?
     
  14. TheAvalanche

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    Even vga at native rate is better than dvi scaled imho. I have a htpc and txt when scaled looks bold. With native rate, it's pixel perfect.
     
  15. hornydragon

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    there are lots of reasons to use an external processor with the 40 Series Fujitsu's....they will perform better in a standalone config than other panels but there are still things scalers can do which can be beneficial.........
     
  16. MAW

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    I'd agree with that, what's at issue is not the panel's suitability as a partner to a scaler, but whether it's the ultimate HC display. What we want, I think? is native rate digital signals at 50 and 60Hz, as well as 720p and the usual video suspects, with HDCP. A display that did this could work for folks with and without scalers, it would be a choice not a necessity. The PC brigade might be catered for by the Fujitsu, native at 75Hz would do them nicely. But no native with HDCP is a bummer.
     
  17. NicolasB

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    Actually maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. Given a non-HDCP source, can you or can you not drive the panel at its native resolution via HDMI?
     
  18. MAW

    MAW
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    No
     
  19. Rahmorak

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    But if using a non-HDCP source then you could always pass native res via DVI (using a HDMI > DVI) adapter yes?
     
  20. MAW

    MAW
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    Yes indeed.
     
  21. sdk

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    Is this a bad thing for us maw, as i don't think i understand, or how bad is it. And i got a mail from hifiklubben today, the only company in norway selling fujitsu. And they told me that they are not going to be taking in the tv. as it does not have hdmi with hdcp. So either we have gotten a bad vearsion of the tv or they are missinformed. Anyone know, or else i might have to import me one from the uk. Would i have any problems with power sources and such?
     
  22. MAW

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    I gather mains in Norway is a bit iffy, what is your voltage? As long as it's 240va surge protector ought to make a UK one OK. The UK version certainly is HDMI 1.1, HDCP. For connection to HD sources, this is fine. What many of us on the forum would like to do is connect our sources via a scaler, letting all the processing be 'outsourced' to the scaler. This is not possible with this panel, the only ports where native resolution is attainable are not HDCP.
     
  23. hornydragon

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    the UK model is US spec perhaps Norway are getting the Euro spec none HDCP unit that the UK was originally to be sent, apart from large shipping costs and import duty? there shouldn't be a big issue with a UK sourced US spec unit...
     
  24. MAW

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    I'm not convinced about that story, HD. My sources have said that the UK model was always going to have HDCP. They knew any other spec was commercial suicide, way back when the 30 series was introduced.
     
  25. dilsher

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    Posted by Liam on other thread:
    "So for Dil you have no worries as you are running SDI into the Lumagen so there is no encryption to worry about. But for someone wanting to run HDMI into a scaler and up to the screen, this is still an issue (unless you run 720p). "

    A scaler is so much more than that - so I'm lovin it!

    Dil xxx
     
  26. hornydragon

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    I agree it would have been and i think different specs in what is a now a global market is nuts anyway.......the reason for no DVi on 30 series was 14% extra duty in EU for DVi equiped devices....but as for whats going on in Norway i ahve no idea.......unless they just dont want to carry it.....I am sure a UK, German, or Sweedish dealer will deal tho........but if you mains is suspect a UPS would be a worthwhile investment!!!
     
  27. NicolasB

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    Ah, yes, but:

    1) The DVI input will not accept a 50Hz signal. It is possible that it might accept a 75Hz signal, but this would presumably not work for 720p (or would it?)

    2) According to MAW, if you use the DVI input, this disables ALL forms of image processing in the screen. In other words, everything that makes the Fujitsu screen look better than any other screen using the same glass will get deactivated, and the picture you get will be exactly the same as if you had bought (say) a much cheaper Panasonic panel instead. (Including, quite possibly, FRC judder if you can't make it work at 75Hz).
     
  28. hornydragon

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    but if you are using a scaler to DVi you have the improved processing of the scaler to use and all of its corrections, having the processing disabled on DVi is an advantage..................OK no 50Hz but you run HD TV direct to panel HDMI and SD sources via scaler best of both worlds...........
     
  29. NicolasB

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    1) As has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread, the AVM II processor is not simply a scaler and deinterlacer. It does several other things as well. These things will be lost if you use an external scaler connected to DVI.

    2) You're still not addressing the point that the Fujitsu panel with a separate scaler will look exactly the same as a Panasonic panel with a scaler, while costing a lot more money. If I'm understanding correctly it is only the electronics (which are probably disabled when using the DVI input) that makes the Fujitsu panel look better when you're not using DVI.

    It may well be the case that the Fujitsu panel will look better with an external scaler than it does without one. But (if using DVI does disable the AVM II processing completely) anyone who wants to obtain that picture quality will be able to do so more cheaply with a different panel.
     
  30. MAW

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    You are also slightly missing the point. The panasonic panel only takes native on DVI at 60Hz, resulting in the dreaded FRC judder. If the fuji takes native at 75Hz, this might be a great help, even without HDCP. This is as yet untested, I'm going on previous models. I'd be 75% sure it'll work, till I've actually tried it.
     

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