The Falcon and The Winter Soldier (Disney+) Premiere TV Show Review & Comments

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
Agreed.
Still has international incident written all over it though.... Unless all the flags have already been smashed of course... But that presumably still wouldn't allow people to act with impunity though, would it? That would be......
I think given the nature of the country, there was the feeling that it was a bit lawless (it was mentioned at some point). Generally, the fight was highly deniable being in a closed room and where the US side would have had to admit that they had freed and were using Zemo. Neither side comes out well, better to brush it under the carpet.

And, "luckily" for them, the whole Cap thing has slightly jumped to the fore as far as international incidents go!
 

DB9S

Active Member
I think given the nature of the country, there was the feeling that it was a bit lawless (it was mentioned at some point). Generally, the fight was highly deniable being in a closed room and where the US side would have had to admit that they had freed and were using Zemo. Neither side comes out well, better to brush it under the carpet.

And, "luckily" for them, the whole Cap thing has slightly jumped to the fore as far as international incidents go!
Yes. Way to divert attention!
 

Peew971

Well-known Member
I still don't get why every show needs two different discussion threads :)
Copy and Paste of my post on the other one:

I've been enjoying this overall and clearly they have made this whole show to make the world accept a black Cap. That I don't have an issue with. However I've always found Anthony Mackie incredibly bland and typically the least charismatic character in any given scene throughout pretty much his entire career. This show has done nothing to change my mind about him, everyone around him shines a lot more, I just cannot find him believable as Cap.
This reminds me of Altered Carbon when he had the impossible task of walking in Kinnaman's footsteps and sure enough, everyone in season 2 was more charismatic than him. I'm really curious to see if he changes my mind in the finale.
 

BrightonChris

Distinguished Member
Hi it’s Sam. Remember me, the kid down the road?
No mate, i remember you for being one of the most famous people in the world and helping to save the universe. So sure, I’ll come help fix the hole in your boat.

I don’t have superpowers or any extraordinary skills relevant to throwing this shield, but i did extra push ups today!

They even had a montage. An actual montage.

I can hardly believe this lazy claptrap made it off the page onto the screen. They can do better than this.
 

Peew971

Well-known Member
Hi it’s Sam. Remember me, the kid down the road?
No mate, i remember you for being one of the most famous people in the world and helping to save the universe. So sure, I’ll come help fix the hole in your boat.

I don’t have superpowers or any extraordinary skills relevant to throwing this shield, but i did extra push ups today!

They even had a montage. An actual montage.

I can hardly believe this lazy claptrap made it off the page onto the screen. They can do better than this.
My guess is
that Wakandian offering is a new Cap suit with enough enhancements to allow him to fight any sort of threats. The fact that he isn't a Super Soldier means he's really just another Black Widow/Hawkeye but a suit can alleviate that, as we've seen with Tony Stark or Peter Parker (who didn't need it) in the MCU. I agree that a few extra push ups alone would never be enough to go head to head with the Flag Smashers
 

BrightonChris

Distinguished Member
My guess is
that Wakandian offering is a new Cap suit with enough enhancements to allow him to fight any sort of threats. The fact that he isn't a Super Soldier means he's really just another Black Widow/Hawkeye but a suit can alleviate that, as we've seen with Tony Stark or Peter Parker (who didn't need it) in the MCU. I agree that a few extra push ups alone would never be enough to go head to head with the Flag Smashers
Could well be right. And the painfully slow and obvious power broker reveal is getting silly. The whole thing smacks of lazy writing to fit a predefined end point.
 

scrowe

Distinguished Member
There's a lot of exploration of grey areas so far in this show, which I really like. MCU at it's best.
I agree, whilst I think the first 3 episodes were just ok, the last 2 have been an upswing in overall quality. I think I was looking for more obvious Lethal Weapon banter and spy-thriller tropes, mixed in with vibes from Winter Soldier. But I do now think the writer/directors were trying for better than that, and whilst I don’t think it all worked that well, I am certainly now appreciating a quality of writing and nuance in the show that has been better realised the last two episodes.
 

BlueOrange25

Well-known Member
Very much enjoying the show. A welcome opportunity to spend more time with, up till now, the 'supporting' heroes.

Hopefully, it'll pay dividends the next time Scarlet Witch, Vision(?), Falcon, and Bucky are in a film outing.

Also enjoying the fact that the actors are getting to show off what they can do. Marvel have a knack of finding a strong cast.

Sebastian Stan has been really good. Right mix of banter and coming to terms with his past. Anthony Mackie is doing just fine. They're a good duo.

Wyatt Russell has been excellent, great as someone who blends in nicely with the shades of grey in the series. (As a side note, his resemblance to his father is uncanny. I keep picturing him with an eyepatch and a fun in each hand.)

I hope we see more of Daniel Brühl's Zemo. One of the best villains in the MCU by a great actor.

I like some of the themes being touched on.

It's inevitable and essential that any talk of an American hero with that shield has to address race. I like how it's been handled. It has some of the issues of race in wider society, whilst at the same time developing Sam.

Bucky and JW touch upon mental health. One trying to move forward with life after the trauma of being brainwashed into a government killer. The other, a jolting view at what happens when what you can do for your country just isn't enough.

I would have liked more on the Flag Smashers, and more about how the world changed during the Blip. But time is limited and there's already plenty.

Strong start from Marvel with their shows. Looking forward to the last episode.
 

Garrett

Moderator
Wyatt Russell has been excellent, great as someone who blends in nicely with the shades of grey in the series. (As a side note, his resemblance to his father is uncanny. I keep picturing him with an eyepatch and a fun in each hand.)

I hope we see more of Daniel Brühl's Zemo. One of the best villains in the MCU by a great actor.



Strong start from Marvel with their shows. Looking forward to the last episode.
When he was giving that speech at the hearing it was almost as if his dad had taken his place.

I too like to see more of Daniel Brühl's as Zemo he was one of the thorns in the side of Captain America and the Avengers for a long time and gathered different groups of villain's to battle them over the comics and TV series.

But the Zemo in the film/tv a more sympathetic character.
 

Mandark

Active Member
Hmm....I’m still not convinced by this show. I don’t think that the flag smashers storyline works in this scenario.. Yes it’s an interesting idea to create a social revolution based on the problems of the missing but you don’t need superheroes to investigate that story. Social workers and community workers can do that job. The flag smashers aren’t even bad people at heart. They’re misguided. They’d barely be a dangerous threat without the super serum.

The F&WS need to be smacking around amoral bad guys who are either super powered or have dangerous tech like Vulture in Spider-Man Homecoming, not social activists.

The real success is Walker as the bad Captain America. He could have had his own show as a sneering jerk who got the job done using questionable methods. The public love him but officialdom is unnerved by his actions. But that’s a show that will never happen.


.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I like this show, I like this episode and I like how they touched on the racial issues on various different levels. Just like Black Panther, many people will understand most of the levels, those of us from similar backgrounds will understand a little more. Others will just not get it. At the same time that's not the only reason why I like the show, but it's a nice cherry on top.

I like the developing relationship between Sam and Bucky. I like the direction they took with the new Cap. The direct link all the way back to the Winter Soldier is great. I like the pacing although there was probably one montage too many lol. To top it all off the fight scenes put many films to shame. For me every episode builds on and improves on the last. But I don't see how they can tie up all the loose ends in the final hour.

I almost missed the end credits scene lol.

The real success is Walker as the bad Captain America. He could have had his own show as a sneering jerk who got the job done using questionable methods. The public love him but officialdom is unnerved by his actions. But that’s a show that will never happen.
I don't know about success but they did his character justice. His actions are unjustifiable but his motivations are complicated and not easy to completely demonise. I think you are wrong about a show with him not happening though as it is clear we are not done with him from this episode. On top of that the rumour is that since he will be put in the Raft then let's just say that Marvel does have a similarish concept to the Suicide Squad.
 
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Coulson

Distinguished Member
I think that this is a fair (and short) review of this episode.
 

Mandark

Active Member
I like this show, I like this episode and I like how they touched on the racial issues on various different levels. Just like Black Panther, many people will understand most of the levels, those of us from similar backgrounds will understand a little more. Others will just not get it. At the same time that's not the only reason why I like the show, but it's a nice cherry on top.

I like the developing relationship between Sam and Bucky. I like the direction they took with the new Cap. The direct link all the way back to the Winter Soldier is great. I like the pacing although there was probably one montage too many lol. To top it all off the fight scenes put many films to shame. For me every episode builds on and improves on the last. But I don't see how they can tie up all the loose ends in the final hour.

I almost missed the end credits scene lol.


I don't know about success but they did his character justice. His actions are unjustifiable but his motivations are complicated and not easy to completely demonise. I think you are wrong about a show with him not happening though as it is clear we are not done with him from this episode. On top of that the rumour is that since he will be put in the Raft then let's just say that Marvel does have a similarish concept to the Suicide Squad.

I should have said that's a show that will probably never happen. But hey, if does I'm all for it. I'm only seeing good things about the character (and the actor) online and the bosses at Marvel will see this too. He's up there with Anthony Starr's Homelander.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Some thoughts on the race issue, but if America "will never accept a black Captain America", why did it accept a black [version of] Iron Man? Rhodey is about as black as a person can get, and he was literally a poster-boy for the Stars n Stripes. And he remained that way even after reverting to War Machine, operating as the government's number 1 'official' Avengers enforcer.

1618833674896.png

1618834014719.png



All this makes me think, has the MCU adequately explained why Captain America is so important to the American psyche? I haven't seen much evidence that he was regarded any higher than, say, Tony Stark by the US public.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Some thoughts on the race issue, but if America "will never accept a black Captain America", why did it accept a black [version of] Iron Man? Rhodey is about as black as a person can get, and he was literally a poster-boy for the Stars n Stripes. And he remained that way even after reverting to War Machine, operating as the government's number 1 'official' Avengers enforcer.

View attachment 1497247
View attachment 1497253


All this makes me think, has the MCU adequately explained why Captain America is so important to the American psyche? I haven't seen much evidence that he was regarded any higher than, say, Tony Stark by the US public.
Not a difficult question to answer. The clue is in the name 'America'. There will be people who see America and any representative thereof as being white. Secondly Iron Patriot/War Machine is a sidekick.

However the question about whether the US would accept a black Captain America may not even be that important. The more interesting question posed by the latest episode is "should a black man even want to be Captain America in the first place?" The answer in the MCU seems to be yes, but then we wouldn't expect anything else. It would be interesting to see if such a question is ever asked in the DCEU.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Not a difficult question to answer. The clue is in the name 'America'. There will be people who see America and any representative thereof as being white. Secondly Iron Patriot/War Machine is a sidekick.
Rhodey has operated separately from Tony since Iron Man 3, so as far as the public is concerned, he was never anyone's sidekick (despite being his best mate in private). And it's clear from the Iron Patriot (clue is also in that name) that Rhodey is presented as a symbol of American strength and bravery. Where was the non acceptance of that?

I get why Captain America is more symbolic perhaps, but I cant see it being that much of a difference to the average Joe. Frankly, War Machine is way cooler than Cap in terms of offensive capability (I bet white kids would agree). This speaks to my second paragraph: why is Captain America (black or white) needed in the first place?
However the question about whether the US would accept a black Captain America may not even be that important. The more interesting question posed by the latest episode is "should a black man even want to be Captain America in the first place?"

That's a good point. But by that line of reasoning, why would a black man ever sign up for the military in any capacity? Why did Rhodey?
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
I guess this is another show I'll now have to start watching at some point :rolleyes: :D

Sounds like it's picked up a fair bit the last few episodes.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
I guess this is another show I'll now have to start watching at some point :rolleyes: :D

Sounds like it's picked up a fair bit the last few episodes.

It's really good mate. Very strong characters and writing, to the point where I enjoy the dialogue scenes more than the action! And as you've noticed, quite politically charged too.

Any Winter Soldier fan will love it.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
i think the main thing with Rhodey is that he took the armour... but more importantly Stark let him keep it and it could be argued that the government can essentially do jack about that... whereas the Cap mantel they can pass to who they wanted once Falcon handed in the shield.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
That's a good point. But by that line of reasoning, why would a black man ever sign up for the military in any capacity? Why did Rhodey?
That wide scope is one of the reasons why it's a very interesting question. The fact that the MCU was even able to touch on this without the whole show grinding to a halt is pretty incredible. It shows what you can do with an agenda within a story as opposed to a story within an agenda.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
It's really good mate. Very strong characters and writing, to the point where I enjoy the dialogue scenes more than the action! And as you've noticed, quite politically charged too.

Any Winter Soldier fan will love it.

Being politically charged doesn't appeal to me, however anything Winter Soldier most certainly does. I'll wait till it's all aired anyway.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Being politically charged doesn't appeal to me, however anything Winter Soldier most certainly does. I'll wait till it's all aired anyway.

Yeah that's fair enough. I really like how they've developed Bucky and Sam as a team, much deeper than your usual 'buddy' action duo, and the supporting characters are none too shabby either. Winter Soldier/ Civil War vibes in plentiful supply.
 

RebelsScum

Active Member
Yeah that's fair enough. I really like how they've developed Bucky and Sam as a team, much deeper than your usual 'buddy' action duo, and the supporting characters are none too shabby either. Winter Soldier/ Civil War vibes in plentiful supply.
Their initial sniping was very clumsy and awkward to watch. It really didn’t need that journey to get to where they are now, they were pretty much there at the end of Endgame.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
Their initial sniping was very clumsy and awkward to watch. It really didn’t need that journey to get to where they are now, they were pretty much there at the end of Endgame.

Yes that was what I feared too, and if it had been maintained through the show I would have been disappointed as it goes against the mutual respect that evolved between the pair between Civil War and Endgame. Fortunately it was explained well and dispensed with early, during the counselling session where we learn how Sam giving up the shield affected Bucky.
 

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