The Falcon and The Winter Soldier (Disney+) Premiere TV Show Review & Comments

RebelScum

Active Member
Think this all being overthought after all no one thinks this should be in real james bond films to make things realistic to our world ;)

Not overthought, just noting what jumps out at me. It doesn’t ruin the show, but it does take it down a notch or two for me.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I wonder if there is any correlation between liking these new series and how avid a fan someone is?

I enjoy the MCU films but wouldn't call myself an avid fan; I hated WandaVision but avid fans seemed to love it, and I like Falcon and the Winter Soldier but avid fans seem to hate it.

Disney has a thin line to walk if they want to keep hold of the hardened fans but also hold onto and draw in new paying customers.
Not an avid fan, but I am a fan of the MCU. I loved WandaVision but I think I like this show more. It has a lot more subtext going on with very little being black and white. It's basically an extension of the Winter Soldier and Civil War stories. Bucky being deprogramed makes him much more complex. It became clear early on that John Walker is a walking bag of spanners. Unlike the MCU films, Falcon doesn't look a spare part in the fight scenes. Also seeing the way Zemo operates give me a new appreciation for what he did in Civil War. As some have said, this could have been called the Zemo show.

It was obvious that John Walker would eventually get the serum. But the way they did it while also showing Zemo's single mindedness was good.

It might not matter anyway because as much as I love this show, there doesn't seem to be a lot of "buzz" around it. WandaVision love it or hate it had people talking about it.
 
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wolfsong

Active Member
The ending of the latest episode was a big shock.

Am fascinated to see where the story goes from there.

Enjoying this series. Loving the character developement for Bucky and Sam, and now Sharon.

Edit: Think I meant to post this in the Disney+ version of the thread, apologies.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
The ending of the latest episode was a big shock.

Am fascinated to see where the story goes from there.

Enjoying this series. Loving the character developement for Bucky and Sam, and now Sharon.

Edit: Think I meant to post this in the Disney+ version of the thread, apologies.
The shock wasn't that it happened, but that they went that far. The ending surprised a lot of people in how brutal it was. That final shot was not Disney at all and the show in general has a lot of grey areas. That's what makes it so good.
 

mazon27091

Well-known Member
In the MCU the serum amplifies who/what you are, so you can work out who is going to adjust well and who is not. Steve Rogers was a decent honourable man who would lay down his life for others so became more of what he was, better than he was originally. Eventually a man who could wield Thor's hammer. John Walker is none of these things and seems to be led by anger and guilt for his hero state, he sees himself as no hero and so does the serum. I know the serum cannot scientifically work this way but that is how the creatives at Marvel chose to portray the serum effects.
 

BrightonChris

Distinguished Member
I don’t think John Walker is evil. I think he’s a means to an end type person but ultimately the road to hell and good intentions etc.
 

stiv674

Well-known Member
Was the serum that Steve Rogers took the same as what the current lot have taken? His physique changed massively but the others don't appear to have changed at all...
 

Garrett

Moderator
Was the serum that Steve Rogers took the same as what the current lot have taken? His physique changed massively but the others don't appear to have changed at all...
Even if the same serum, none been in the machine that enhanced it.
 

DB9S

Active Member
Was the serum that Steve Rogers took the same as what the current lot have taken? His physique changed massively but the others don't appear to have changed at all...
The guy that made the new serum (shortly before being shot by Baron Zemo) said that he had refined it yada yada and it no longer gave over pumped bodies etc, so they have already explained that away.
 

stiv674

Well-known Member
The guy that made the new serum (shortly before being shot by Baron Zemo) said that he had refined it yada yada and it no longer gave over pumped bodies etc, so they have already explained that away.

Well that'll teach me to pay more attention 🙃
 

wolfsong

Active Member
The shock wasn't that it happened, but that they went that far. The ending surprised a lot of people in how brutal it was. That final shot was not Disney at all and the show in general has a lot of grey areas. That's what makes it so good.

I'm impressed that Disney has been willing to add some real grit to this series, such as not shying away from talking about race.

Not sure it would have worked without the injection of realisim it has compared to earlier MCU fare.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I'm impressed that Disney has been willing to add some real grit to this series, such as not shying away from talking about race.

Not sure it would have worked without the injection of realisim it has compared to earlier MCU fare.
But even the race issues and dialogue is nuanced and not just black and white (pun maybe intended ;)). Race is one of a number of issues being hinted at, but the main issue for the show is the vested interests keeping us divided in order to keep their hold on power.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
I like that they are developing the character of John Walker as more than just either 1) a government puppet; or 2) an unworthy Cap. He seems to have some personal baggage and (as mentioned above) the serum is amplifying some of his darker insecurities. It shows why Erskine was so careful to select the right person in Steve Rogers; and also why Sam is reluctant to take it, despite being easily the most worthy guy in the room. It's also easy to call JW Captain 'Douchebag' (a catch-all term for any white male character displaying an imperfect trait). Consider Ayo of the Dora Milaje, who everyone assumes is awesome. Is she any better than Walker? She openly claims the right to act with impunity, and has no respect for people or sovereign borders.

There's a lot of exploration of grey areas so far in this show, which I really like. MCU at it's best.
 

FavouredAntelope

Active Member
I like that they are developing the character of John Walker as more than just either 1) a government puppet; or 2) an unworthy Cap. He seems to have some personal baggage and (as mentioned above) the serum is amplifying some of his darker insecurities. It shows why Erskine was so careful to select the right person in Steve Rogers; and also why Sam is reluctant to take it, despite being easily the most worthy guy in the room. It's also easy to call JW Captain 'Douchebag' (a catch-all term for any white male character displaying an imperfect trait). Consider Ayo of the Dora Milaje, who everyone assumes is awesome. Is she any better than Walker? She openly claims the right to act with impunity, and has no respect for people or sovereign borders.

There's a lot of exploration of grey areas so far in this show, which I really like. MCU at it's best.
I never really saw JW purely as Captain Douchebag and I think the show is stronger when it makes him three dimensional. I found a line in The Guardian's summary of the last episode very striking (yeah I know it is The Guardian). It was something about JW 'sulking' when
he lost to the Doja Milaje [the line actually says he 'sulked like a toddler']. That's a bit of a weird interpretation. That moment was basically the worst ever case of imposter syndrome being fully realised. He has trained his entire life to be the best soldier possible, is made Captain America, making him the symbol of an entire country, and is confronted with stark evidence he is nowhere near up to the job - and probably never will be. That's a devastating realisation and really well acted. A bit weird to just call it 'sulking'.

I think Ayo was actually a total douche in that episode, but I'm not sure the show realised it.
 

BrightonChris

Distinguished Member
I felt and understood his frustration. He wasn’t playing on a level playing field. By human standards he’s an elite soldier. It was nicely done in my opinion.
 

lucasisking

Distinguished Member
I never really saw JW purely as Captain Douchebag and I think the show is stronger when it makes him three dimensional. I found a line in The Guardian's summary of the last episode very striking (yeah I know it is The Guardian). It was something about JW 'sulking' when
he lost to the Doja Milaje [the line actually says he 'sulked like a toddler']. That's a bit of a weird interpretation. That moment was basically the worst ever case of imposter syndrome being fully realised. He has trained his entire life to be the best soldier possible, is made Captain America, making him the symbol of an entire country, and is confronted with stark evidence he is nowhere near up to the job - and probably never will be. That's a devastating realisation and really well acted. A bit weird to just call it 'sulking'.

I think Ayo was actually a total douche in that episode, but I'm not sure the show realised it.
That's what happens when society spends years focusing on identity over content of character.

I actually found that quite a powerful moment too, one that pushed him over the edge towards needing the serum. He was utterly overmatched by the skills of the Dora Milaje, quite a blow to the ego or as DC's Alfred might say; "the rage that turns good men cruel".
 

DB9S

Active Member
I like that they are developing the character of John Walker as more than just either 1) a government puppet; or 2) an unworthy Cap. He seems to have some personal baggage and (as mentioned above) the serum is amplifying some of his darker insecurities. It shows why Erskine was so careful to select the right person in Steve Rogers; and also why Sam is reluctant to take it, despite being easily the most worthy guy in the room. It's also easy to call JW Captain 'Douchebag' (a catch-all term for any white male character displaying an imperfect trait). Consider Ayo of the Dora Milaje, who everyone assumes is awesome. Is she any better than Walker? She openly claims the right to act with impunity, and has no respect for people or sovereign borders.

There's a lot of exploration of grey areas so far in this show, which I really like. MCU at it's best.
This is a fantastic point and one that I also thought at the time of watching! Sure she is a lady and pretty awesome at that, but she also behaved as having an insanely entitled attitude and was completely uncaring of anyone else's wellbeing TBH.

Also, she and her compatriots were taking part in exactly the kind of actions that resulted in all the Avengers getting their respective wings clipped by the Sokovia Accords.

Their unilateral actions (which they seem to make no secret of saying are in the name of Wakanda) and complete lack of respect for sovereign borders and the rule of law, are the kind of actions that can cause all out wars.
Aren't non dignitaries as bound by any local laws as anyone else? These ladies cannot have diplomatic immunity as they are no more than shiny body/security guards at home. Not heads of state.

All a bit sloppy on the writing front I feel. For an MCU that has up until now done a pretty decent job of 'grounding' a lot of this fantastical super hero/magic stuff into our real world, this is a let down because this show is so a lot more like real life and that makes it is easier to spot the cracks in the lazy writing.
 

DB9S

Active Member
I never really saw JW purely as Captain Douchebag and I think the show is stronger when it makes him three dimensional. I found a line in The Guardian's summary of the last episode very striking (yeah I know it is The Guardian). It was something about JW 'sulking' when
he lost to the Doja Milaje [the line actually says he 'sulked like a toddler']. That's a bit of a weird interpretation. That moment was basically the worst ever case of imposter syndrome being fully realised. He has trained his entire life to be the best soldier possible, is made Captain America, making him the symbol of an entire country, and is confronted with stark evidence he is nowhere near up to the job - and probably never will be. That's a devastating realisation and really well acted. A bit weird to just call it 'sulking'.

I think Ayo was actually a total douche in that episode, but I'm not sure the show realised it.
I think the assessment is accurate. He gives the aura of being like a petulant and pouty child.
 

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
In Civil War, Black Panther was essentially doing what the Doja Milaje are doing here - going after the person who killed their king, and with no respect for any other laws of the land as the mission was more important. He realises his mistake later on - but it shouldn't be surprising if that newer attitude isn't shared by his compatriots, particularly after a perceived failure of the German justice system, IMO.
 

DB9S

Active Member
In Civil War, Black Panther was essentially doing what the Doja Milaje are doing here - going after the person who killed their king, and with no respect for any other laws of the land as the mission was more important. He realises his mistake later on - but it shouldn't be surprising if that newer attitude isn't shared by his compatriots, particularly after a perceived failure of the German justice system, IMO.
Whilst that is true, they are hardly operating incognito like say a spook would be. Plausible deniability etc.
They just seem to rock up, announce who they are, do exactly as they please, then leave. :facepalm::confused:
 

DB9S

Active Member
The only reason I can think of why they would even remotely get away with it in this broken world they reside in is that they are extremely effective * in what they do.
No excuse though in a world that consists or sovereign borders.
Maybe they use the ethos of the flag smashers (one world, one government) as a fog under which to operate. Who knows... :)
I know 'tis but fantasy, but 'tis good and thought provoking fantasy, all the same. :D

* Edit, maybe not that effective as.... Zemo did 'do one' and evade capture.....:rotfl:
 
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DB9S

Active Member
If at any point you are watching and suddenly think 'how do they ever get away with doing that?' then it takes you right out of it. Suspension of disbelief goes only so far in something as supposedly grounded in our basic reality as this show..
 

FavouredAntelope

Active Member
In Civil War, Black Panther was essentially doing what the Doja Milaje are doing here - going after the person who killed their king, and with no respect for any other laws of the land as the mission was more important. He realises his mistake later on - but it shouldn't be surprising if that newer attitude isn't shared by his compatriots, particularly after a perceived failure of the German justice system, IMO.
I agree the arrogance may be in character, but - as other people pointed out - less so their lack of professionalism. The DM's petty dispute with someone who wasn't a threat allowed the target (their only reason for being there) to escape. That's pretty shoddy.
 

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
Whilst that is true, they are hardly operating incognito like say a spook would be. Plausible deniability etc.
They just seem to rock up, announce who they are, do exactly as they please, then leave. :facepalm::confused:
Just as subtle as Black Panther in Civil War then!

I think the whole point here was that their interference is exactly what led to Zemo's escape - again very similar to how BP's interference in Civil War led Zemo directly to Bucky. It was sloppy, but it's a bit of an emotive subject for them, hence sloppiness and over-reactions.
 

DB9S

Active Member
Just as subtle as Black Panther in Civil War then!

I think the whole point here was that their interference is exactly what led to Zemo's escape - again very similar to how BP's interference in Civil War led Zemo directly to Bucky. It was sloppy, but it's a bit of an emotive subject for them, hence sloppiness and over-reactions.
Agreed.
Still has international incident written all over it though.... Unless all the flags have already been smashed of course... But that presumably still wouldn't allow people to act with impunity though, would it? That would be total......
Captain Chaos.jpg
 
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