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The EU - Britain in or out?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Stuart Wright, Jun 12, 2005.

?
  1. Yes - stay in the EU

    19 vote(s)
    33.9%
  2. No - let's leave the EU

    37 vote(s)
    66.1%
  1. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    I'm probably typical in that I have absolutely no idea what benefits and costs 'being in the EU' has for the UK. Infact I don't even know what 'being in the EU' is.
    I have a feeling it might be good for business in some vague way. But I know for a fact that it costs us a boat load of money.
    And I'm pretty sure that it's changes to the human rights laws which have resulted in the compensation culture in the UK.
    On the whole I'm of the feeling that people in Brussels do not understand the needs of the people of the UK - particularly with respect to the law.
    And the idea that Britain has relinquished control of our laws does not seem good to me. But then as I said, I know very little about it.
    Given a snap decision right now on staying in or leaving the EU, in my ignorance, I'd vote to leave.
    What about you?
     
  2. HMHB

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    I think in general I'd be in favour of us being the EU, but I really am against more of the power being shifted across to Brussels and people of other countries trying to tell us what we can and can't do. If we could have the EU without that side of it (and all the wasted money that goes with it) I would be very happy to stay in the EU, but it seems to me that we quickly lose control of our own country and just become a "European State" so I will vote No.
    It might be a good idea to have another poll after a month or so of debate as I really do not know enough about the EU either ?
     
  3. Ian J

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    In the referendum 30 years ago we were all asked if we wished to join the "European Economic Community" as that is what it then was - a close knit trading partnership.
     
  4. vonhosen

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    It should be about trade & peace between member nations - nothing else.

    As the agenda is to make it much more than that I vote No
     
  5. Mep

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    I think the question needs to be enlarged upon as I'm all for an EEC which as Ian points out is what we 'signed up for' but I am against the European Constitution.
     
  6. Kazman

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    I agree with the above statements, not what we signed up for, and do not want more power given away. The trade and peace agreements are fine, anything more, thanks but no thanks....voting no :)
     
  7. Miyazaki

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    IMO we need the economic strength as a united Europe to stand up against the Americans.
     
  8. Mep

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    stand up against them in what way?
     
  9. Miyazaki

    Miyazaki
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    Ever heard of the banana wars?

    They impose sanctions on a wide range of products coming from Europe and other places, as they feel they would outcompete their own industry, artificially making European goods more expensive on the American market. Free trade eh?

    If Europe could come together and do the same to american products over here, it would make them think twice.

    It would also be very good to be able to stand up to America and their disasterous foreign policy and bullyboy tactics, which as individual European nations we aren't able to do at the moment.

    Europe has the potential in 50 years or so to be a bigger market force than the USA. By the end of this century the USA will be the 3rd largest market behind China and Europe.
     
  10. Mep

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    oh I thought you meant to stop them committing real crimes like remaking great shows like "the office" (seriously though...I do agree with you to a large extent)
     
  11. vonhosen

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    That comes under the trading banner that it was originally created under for me though. We should be promoting fair trade, the removing of barriers to trade between Europan countries & the ability for us to use combined power in global markets. That coupled with peace & an appreciation for each member states individuality, customs, & laws is what it should be about.

    Not the bloated meddling gravy train it has become. It has become expensive & ineffective because it has gone past it's original remit & is pushing towards a all encompassing superstate. It is following a program of forced change not natural change to where we must think of oursleves as European not British, French, German or whatever and this will only cause resentment & a backlash.

    There is too much history & too many different cultures for Europe to represent all our interests successfully as an all ecompassing state at this momment at time. If that is an end goal the pace at which change is being asked to take is too fast.
     
  12. Member 55145

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    im all up for free trade around europe

    but not controlling our own army, not having the power to imprison terrorists we see as a threat in our own country, changing all fire extinguishers to red ( :rolleyes: ) and trying to ban bacon flavour crisps is going too far! we should make our own rules and regulations for our own country, not be moulded to german and french laws. anyone notice we dont see them having laws changed that they moan about? they are in it together because they both dont like anything we do and simply want to change the way we lead out lives.

    they will be banning bbc2 comedy next :rolleyes:

    EU trade yes (Still will be ripped-off tho) EU laws, NO!

    EDIT: As for the trade thing mentioned above, we used to have laws much stronger than that, and did you forget the fact the whole EU banned british beef then just british beef on the bone, and france put up a fight not to let it back in. the french just want to damage our economy just like the germans (I think we should of held off a bit later during WWII ;) )
     
  13. Rock Da Bass

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    Reform the finances? yes.

    Leave the EU? Don't be be so isolationist :suicide:

    RDB :)
     
  14. lmccauley

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    There was an article on the news about how much we're paying - it's about £30-40 per person per year. I think the poor dutch are paying about £80/p/y and we would be too if we gave away our rebate without negotiating other benefits.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  15. Miyazaki

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    we contribute £5 billion per year, but after our rebate, we contribute £2 billion per year. Germany contributes £5 billion, France about £1 billion.

    France and Germany have massive protectionist rebates for their farming though which we don't have.

    It isn't a lot of money, and the fact that we now have a massive labour market and much better trading links means that our economy soaks up most, if not all, of the £2 billion.
     
  16. Drd

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    I'm all for leaving as a gut response,but I suspect we all need a lot more information before we can make a rational decision.All the discussion about Britain's rebate recently and yet I have seen no full breakdown of costs and income per head for all countries involved.I've no objection to helping poorer countries and I too had read that the Dutch are paying more per head than we are,but I do object to the various ways my money seems to be badly used eg farm subsidies,large salaries and allowances for anyone remotely involved in the running of the union and blatant corruption which appears to be ignored by various countries.Perhaps the problem is that such figures are not even known by the relevant authorities.Most of all it annoys me that the French are demanding we give more while their farmers appear to be one of the biggest costs and adamantly refuse to consider changing themselves,but perhaps that's just the British press being biased in their reporting of the facts.So,we need a lot more info!
     
  17. Miyazaki

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    Chirac is an enormously bigoted, hypocritical criminal, and everything he says is either a lie or propaganda.

    He is the only politician I despise as much as Bush and or Blair (I can't see where one ends and the other begins any more)
     
  18. la gran siete

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    Chirac is a crook as is Belusconi but thats no reason to turns ones back on the EC.For mew its a big stay in. To pull out I reckon would spell economic suicide on a major scale.I also reckonm the ohter memebr nations would make our life as difficult as possible . We certainly wouldnt be able to do thew sam eamount of trade with them.No , I say stay in and fight to make it a worthwhile and workable community.Remember relative peace has been maintained for 60 years so why jeopardize it
     
  19. overkill

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    Stay in and fight to prevent it becoming something we don't want. Pulling out is the cowards way.

    We benefit (in no small measure) from the trade aspect and, as I'm sure Silver etc will verify, from the huge grants paid out to re-build areas ravaged by past recessions. Merseyside in particular has done well out of EU dosh.

    When it comes to finger pointing over corruption I hardly think either the current or the last govt can point the finger at Europe - without blushing.

    Do you mean subsidies Guru?
     
  20. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    For me our sovereignty ( poweers) has been changing for years ever since the war , ever since we lost the Empire . ever since we joined Nato nad of course the Ec and signed Mastricht. Its a different world today and I think we can pull our weight( rather like California does in the US) within a greater whole than being some insignificant Ruritanian country stuck in the North sea waving its flag and living off past glories . Its time to move on.
     
  21. lee789

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    Yes - stay in the EU for the simple reason of trade.

    I believe the EU gets a bad rep in the press and only the bad is picked up on. Like straight bananas, lbs vs kgs etc. Typical of our press to focus on the bad.

    Don't know enough about the EU Constitution to comment but as the question was about staying in the EU then a definite Yes.
     
  22. Rock Da Bass

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    It's incredible how many people actually believed that story :rolleyes:

    We'll never have a properly informed debate on the EU in this country when the press are as extreme in their anti-EU stance as this.

    RDB :)
     
  23. Squiffy

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    On the trade aspect, why wouldn't we get the exact same benefits by leaving the EU, but staying in the EFTA (European Free Trade Area)?

    On the grants side, are you serious?

    If we were not in the EU, there would be an extra £2.5billion per year we could spend in the UK on top of the current grants that are just our own money recycled back to us sans horrendous EU adminstration costs. IIRC the £2.5 billion we pay is our NET contribution after the CAP, grants, etc.
     
  24. Dr Diversity

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    My laptop was paid for by the EU under some social funding for language teaching. Given that I teach IT I am not sure how it came to be lent to me. He Ho.
     
  25. overkill

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    No. The benefits of free trade alone aren't enough. We know that from past experience.


    No, I just said that to wind up the anti EU mob. :rolleyes: ;) Have a look at the massive improvements made in some of Britains cities using EU money - then ask me if I'm serious.

    Current govt ethos (of the last 25 years) is that govt can make grants to "deprived areas" only on the basis that extra funding (a LOT of extra funding) can be found. Ie from the EU.

    Without that EU funding, areas like Merseyside, Gt Manchester etc would be in a shocking state, as 80's thinking was that you didn't intervene, and an area would recover on its own. Great idea if it works. It didn't. Hence Mr Heseltine (to his eternal credit) 'arranged' the govt cash plus EU funding idea.

    There is still much to be done, and without EU cash it won't happen.

    I know that it would be better to save the cash and spend it here in the first place, but hey, who am I to challenge established right wing ethos.............. ;)
     
  26. Ed Selley

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    I demand you buy me a new chair- I've just broken my old one falling off it.
     
  27. Squiffy

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    Why aren't they enough? What extra benefits do we get from EU membership that we wouldn't get from EFTA membership?

    That isn't a convincing argument. If we hadn't been in the EU, then obviously that policy would have been different.

    And whatever the different policy would have been, it could have been funded with an extra £2.5billion per year...
     
  28. Ethics Gradient

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    a) under current proposals for 2007 - 2013 - the UK will be getting reduced regional aid - Merseyside will no longer qualifiy under the new proposals for example.
    currently approx 30% of the UK population live in areas that are getting regional aid... this will drop to just under 10%.

    b) regardless off what regional aid we have recieved, it is still far less than we actually put in.

    ..... so we would have been far better off in terms of assisting deprived areas just by giving them investment directly within the UK.


    -------

    so the only positive side of things was trade.

    with the French ignoring rulings to buy our beef ....


    but regardless of that,

    the UK GDP is generated from about 80% Services , 20% Manufactured goods.

    We do more Business outside the EU than within it.

    Only aprroximately 10% of our Ecconomy is reliant on EU trade, and NOT being in the EU does not mean that trade would 'dissappear'

    --------------

    the only real benifitors of the EU financially, are countries like Spain ( gets about 8.7 billion Euros Net from the EU )

    I just love how the French put less in than us Net, but want to reduce our rebate ;)
     
  29. overkill

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    a) Correct. b) debatable c) Yes we would, but that wasn't, and still isn't the prevailing thought on regeneration. As above. So you think these areas should just have been left to rot? Don't answer that....... :rolleyes:

    No. As above.

    Yes. No money would have been made available at all (as govt transcripts show). Lucky we were in then eh?

    How? Mrs T was originally committed to non-intervention regards re-generation. We are getting into the realms of ifs, buts, and might have beens to prove a point here.

    Who can blame them? We told so many lies over BSE, no-one could trust us.

    Maybe according to 'civitas' but not according to the NS office. Sorry but I know which one I'd rather believe.

    Currently yes, that is true.

    And you know what the French can do.......... ;)
     
  30. Squiffy

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    Of course it is speculation, but I think it is highly likely that if policy was so different over something major like the EU, it could certainly have been different over regeneration.

    After all, we'd have £2.5 billion from out net contribution into the EU to spend within the UK. That's potentially a whole lot of money for regeneration per year.
     

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