The Difficult Conversation has to start.

[Cliff]

After last night's London Bridge attack- which is covered in GC- the Prime minister has said
"We cannot and must not pretend that things can continue as they are."

She said that we are now going to have difficult conversations. We have been too tolerant. We already have 3000 potential extremists on watch list but it looks like these attacks are on the increase.
So what sensible measures do we need to take.
I have already suggested elsewhere that Jihadists returning from an IS zone should not be allowed back. Even if they have a British passport (they should stay in Islamic State). That would have prevented the Manchester attack.
I would also ban foreign funding for mosques and madrassas, and visiting Immams.
As I said, these are going to be difficult measures, but we cannot carry on as normal when the attacks are on the increase.

 

[faiz0]

You might want to look at the wording of the thread!

Agree with most of what you've said there, in particular not allowing anyone back in from an IS zone.

 

[IronGiant]

I've edited the thread title to what I assume Cliff intended. As for the Manchester attack I didn't think he was a returning Jihadist was he? Unless he was closely followed it would have seemed he was simply visiting family in Libya wouldn't it?

 

[krish]

I'm not really sure what's 'difficult' about this conversation. Agree with @Cliff's points ... Although instead of turning returning jihadis back round, surely we want to get intel off them don't we?

With the US, I believe when they've suddenly flagged and detained a jihadi, usually as a result of good inter-agency cooperation, they then have everybody patched into the interrogation ... so the detainee might reveal locations, possibly inadvertently, then drone operators and CIA agents/assets in country could confirm in real time and subsequent take down actions executed.

 

[Cliff]

Unless he was closely followed it would have seemed he was simply visiting family in Libya wouldn't it?

His family were religious extremists initially against Gadaffi and that is why they sought asylum in the UK. Subsequently, that part of Libya has become an IS friendly province. And the fight in that country is still on going.
There were reports that the bomber travelled to Syria but I'm not sure if that has been verified. But anyone visiting Libya, frequently and who is a danger to us should be banned from returning. He was already on the watch list, so assumed dangerous, and had the ban been in place, Manchester would not have happened.

 

[apolloa]

It's not a difficult conversation at all, it's just one that no political party in the UK will have as it may mean lost votes.
This morning an ex metropolitan high ranking officer on Sky news stated May was flat out lying over her increase in security services, how these extra armed Police officers are ones who have had their holidays cancelled and their shifts extended to 16 hours, he also said the extra people May claims the security services have are actually CID officers they've told to help out, no new man power at all, just shifting what's their already round. All politicians do is spin and lie and May is a great talker. These attacks will just continue, nothing will be allowed to change. I mean getting rid of all Shira laws in this country would be a start.. but I can not even imagine the backlash and riots that would be allowed to happen.. remember we are not changing the EU Human Rights act for at least another 7 years.

 

[Rasczak]

After last night's London Bridge attack- which is covered in GC- the Prime minister has said
"We cannot and must not pretend that things can continue as they are."

She said that we are now going to have difficult conversations. We have been too tolerant. We already have 3000 potential extremists on watch list but it looks like these attacks are on the increase.
So what sensible measures do we need to take.
I have already suggested elsewhere that Jihadists returning from an IS zone should not be allowed back. Even if they have a British passport (they should stay in Islamic State). That would have prevented the Manchester attack.
I would also ban foreign funding for mosques and madrassas, and visiting Immams.
As I said, these are going to be difficult measures, but we cannot carry on as normal when the attacks are on the increase.

I disagree - we should take responsibility for our own people. If they have committed terrorist acts or illegally participated in foreign wars, there are crimes already on the statute book to deal with that. Dumping our garbage on others is never the answer.

I would also say the nature and tone of your post suggests the terrorists have beaten you. They want to harm our quality of life. They want to disrupt our democracy. This an ideological war and free, western values will win in the end. Throwing out our values will not save lives, will sacrifice our identity and allow the terrorists to win. Just keep calm and carry on.

 

[Cliff]

It's not a difficult conversation at all, it's just one that no political party in the UK will have as it may mean lost votes.
This morning an ex metropolitan high ranking officer on Sky news stated May was flat out lying

Firstly, your first point is on the money. No political party wants to upset, Muslim voters. Therefore, it becomes difficult as it may be seen as a restriction on normal peaceful families

As for police resources, that is a point, but we need to get to stop these attacks well before the idea is hatched.

 

[Cliff]

I disagree - we should take responsibility for our own people. If they have committed terrorist acts or illegally participated in foreign wars, there are crimes already on the statute book to deal with that. Dumping our garbage on others is never the answer.

I would also say the nature and tone of your post suggests the terrorists have beaten you. They want to harm our quality of life. They want to disrupt our democracy. This an ideological war and free, western values will win in the end. Throwing out our values will not save lives, will sacrifice our identity and allow the terrorists to win. Just keep calm and carry on.

Nice one! I hope you believe that yourself and are not preaching to others. Try telling those families affected last night, that we should carry on as normal and accept the increase in attacts. Make no mistake, and I think you are way off the mark, the usual "carry on as usual -we will not be beaten" is all very well but we need a new approach to tackling the problem. Yes, as people in London, we may carry on as usual but to suggest the authorities carry on as usual is irresponsible in the extreme.
I don't know what we should do. That is why I opened up the thread. But what I do know is that accepting attacks and carrying on as though it's part of our daily life is not good enough.

 

[Rasczak]

Nice one! I hope you believe that yourself and are not preaching to others. Try telling those families affected last night, that we should carry on as normal and accept the increase in attacts. Make no mistake, and I think you are way off the mark, the usual "carry on as usual -we will not be beaten" is all very well but we need a new approach to tackling the problem. Yes, as people in London, we may carry on as usual but to suggest the authorities carry on as usual is irresponsible in the extreme.
I don't know what we should do. That is why I opened up the thread. But what I do know is that accepting attacks and carrying on as though it's part of our daily life is not good enough.

There will always be attacks of one description or another. It is the fundamental price of being a liberal democracy. Selling out to the wishes of terrorists will only encourage more terrorism, more attacks.

 

[apolloa]

Firstly, your first point is on the money. No political party wants to upset, Muslim voters. Therefore, it becomes difficult as it may be seen as a restriction on normal peaceful families

As for police resources, that is a point, but we need to get to stop these attacks well before the idea is hatched.

But with the cutbacks, nothing will change, the chap On Sky News just repeated what others have stated. And May is the one who has done and is doing those cutbacks.

I see little point discussing it though, because it's not us who need to be discussing the issue, and it's why I don't believe anything will change.

 

[apolloa]

There will always be attacks of one description or another. It is the fundamental price of being a liberal democracy. Selling out to the wishes of terrorists will only encourage more terrorism, more attacks.

Wrong, is the fundamental price of being a weak and greedy democracy that cares little about the people. What did Blair do, gave the IRA exactly what they wanted and pardoned all those IRA members who murdered innocent lives... he gave in to their demands. That's a weak and pathetic democracy not willing to fight for the people's rights!

 

[apolloa]

Ah here we go, the first part of the video is May defending her endless cutbacks, and the second half is the interview I mentioned from this morning, he rips May apart.. how can you think anything will change? It won't. Politicians are involved..

 

[tapzilla2k]

After last night's London Bridge attack- which is covered in GC- the Prime minister has said
"We cannot and must not pretend that things can continue as they are."

Says the PM who was Home Sectary and oversaw years of cuts to police numbers (ignore the source of the video, I saw the interview live on Sky News and it's not been changed) -

She said that we are now going to have difficult conversations. We have been too tolerant. We already have 3000 potential extremists on watch list but it looks like these attacks are on the increase.

Most of that tolerance has stemmed from the Political class who've avoided engaging in the right areas to identify and stop people from becoming radicalised where possible. These attacks are not new, we are seen as a soft target for various reasons. If anything like this happens in parts of the Country where Police Numbers are thin on the ground, it will be a whole lot worse and it won't be bought under control as quickly as we saw last night. That's the fear plenty of frontline officers share if you look on social media and elsewhere. This is a good place to start Inspector Gadget (@InspGadgetBlogs) on Twitter

So what sensible measures do we need to take.

I have already suggested elsewhere that Jihadists returning from an IS zone should not be allowed back. Even if they have a British passport (they should stay in Islamic State). That would have prevented the Manchester attack.[/quote]

In which case we need to spend far more on border control and sea patrols. It's pretty easy to get into the UK if you are determined and know where the weak spots are.

As for the Manchester attack ? It appears the Government and MI6 released various Libyan Jihadists from watch lists or court orders and actively helped them fight in Libya and allowed them to return. Warnings about the Bomber were also seemingly ignored.

I would also ban foreign funding for mosques and madrassas, and visiting Immams.
As I said, these are going to be difficult measures, but we cannot carry on as normal when the attacks are on the increase.

Anyone who wants to speak in the UK should be vetted properly and rejected if there views are deemed not to be in the public interest. Though perhaps we need a new law to imprison British born Hate Preachers if they incite Terrorism or deport them if they were not born here.

His family were religious extremists initially against Gadaffi and that is why they sought asylum in the UK. Subsequently, that part of Libya has become an IS friendly province. And the fight in that country is still on going.
There were reports that the bomber travelled to Syria but I'm not sure if that has been verified. But anyone visiting Libya, frequently and who is a danger to us should be banned from returning. He was already on the watch list, so assumed dangerous, and had the ban been in place, Manchester would not have happened.

There have been plenty of reports from various sources that describe MI6 not caring about blowback from those Jihadist as in the short term it helped with the goal of toppling Gadaffi, so they were allowed to go to and from the UK to fight in Libya. Might be time we looked at how MI6 has been operating in recent times and see if changes need to be made there.

 

[Cliff]

There will always be attacks of one description or another. It is the fundamental price of being a liberal democracy. Selling out to the wishes of terrorists will only encourage more terrorism, more attacks.

Haven't you noticed an increase in attacks? No one is selling out. But we cannot standby and do nothing. What is acceptable in our free society? One attack an month OK with you ? Or perhaps when it reaches one a week, then you might l get involved in the "difficult conversation", and stop with the Huffington Post quotes.. It is not going away. The attacks are on the increase everywhere and lives are being lost.

Just on a personal note, I was in London yesterday at the Natural History Museum with my wife and two children yesterday. Of course the youngest wanted to see the big Dinosaur (Dippy) and Daddy had to explain that he had been taken down and will be replaced by a whale which is more valid . My 5 year old didn't agree and was visibly upset... I digress...

My point was about changing our way of life.
If I had said let's go to the museum today or tomorrow- my wife would say- You are joking !!

 

[Marv]

Made me think of this,

Maybe things will change from now on though.

 

[silent ninja]

It's not a difficult conversation at all, it's just one that no political party in the UK will have as it may mean lost votes.
This morning an ex metropolitan high ranking officer on Sky news stated May was flat out lying over her increase in security services, how these extra armed Police officers are ones who have had their holidays cancelled and their shifts extended to 16 hours, he also said the extra people May claims the security services have are actually CID officers they've told to help out, no new man power at all, just shifting what's their already round. All politicians do is spin and lie and May is a great talker. These attacks will just continue, nothing will be allowed to change. I mean getting rid of all Shira laws in this country would be a start.. but I can not even imagine the backlash and riots that would be allowed to happen.. remember we are not changing the EU Human Rights act for at least another 7 years.

There is no Sharia Law in this country.

The rest of what you said makes sense. May has been in power for 7 years in the Home Office to make us safer. She has utterly failed and now she is distancing herself from blame. "Enough is enough" - wasn't it enough after 7/7? She hasn't done a job since 2010, and nothing will change under her.


Let's not forget ISIS kill more Muslims than anyone else. They are toxic, and liek Al-Qaeda, their very existence is very much due to the power vacuums created by British and American interventions in the Middle East. Every one has been an utter failure. It's political suicide to admit foreign interventions are making us unsafe at home, but anybody with basic common sense can figure that one out.

 

[Rasczak]

Just on a personal note, I was in London yesterday at the Natural History Museum with my wife and two children yesterday. Of course the youngest wanted to see the big Dinosaur (Dippy) and Daddy had to explain that he had been taken down and will be replaced by a whale which is more valid . My 5 year old didn't agree and was visibly upset... I digress...

My point was about changing our way of life.
If I had said let's go to the museum today or tomorrow- my wife would say- You are joking !!

I guess this last bit of your quote - when our society has become paralysed and unable to conduct normal life, then change is a necessity. I am sorry your family is in that space but, with the greatest respect, I think you are in the minority. The populace of London and Manchester are rolling on - a handful of terrorist attacks irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. It is a tragedy for the families that have suffered - but it would be unforgiveable if we curtailed rights and lost who we are as a society as a result. In such circumstances the terrorists would have won.

PS - I agree about the dinosaur and even started a thread on the subject!
One of our Dinosaurs is missing....

 

[tapzilla2k]

Haven't you noticed an increase in attacks? No one is selling out. But we cannot standby and do nothing. What is acceptable in our free society? One attack an month OK with you ? Or perhaps when it reaches one a week, then you might l get involved in the "difficult conversation", and stop with the Huffington Post quotes.. It is not going away. The attacks are on the increase everywhere and lives are being lost.

What we need to do is have a rethink of how we are tackling this, listen to those who are dealing with it on a day to day basis (it does sound like it's been underfunded to the point where they can only monitor so many individuals 24/7) and hold all Politicians to account regardless of them being in or out of Government. They've had the power since 2015 I believe to exclude individuals from London, ban them from owning offensive weapons and it being mandatory for them to check in with the authorities. As far as I know those powers haven't really been used if it all. I think it's not unreasonable to say that May has some serious questions to answer about her role as Home Sectary and as PM. Not blaming her for the demented ideology of the attackers or the attacks. But I believe it's crucial we have a proper debate about everything. Regardless of the Election campaign, I do not think Theresa May has a proper grasp of the problem to keep us safe. She was more or less campaigning for her long held desire to restrict the internet under the guise of fighting Terrorism. We all know that Terrorists who are tech savvy will be using the dark web and customised apps to communicate. That's the other part of all this - How far do we go in terms of security before it curtails freedom - another aim of Jihadists - Attacks cause fear, fear causes loss of freedoms through security measures. It was laid out in one of Osama Bin Laden's diatribes on Jihad.

But I believe the immediate course of action to take is to resolve the wars in Libya and Syria (easier said than done). Which means crushing IS and talking to the various sides to reach a political settlement that will stabilise both countries and then begin reconstruction. That has to be a global initiative. It's not something the UK can do alone.

Just on a personal note, I was in London yesterday at the Natural History Museum with my wife and two children yesterday. Of course the youngest wanted to see the big Dinosaur (Dippy) and Daddy had to explain that he had been taken down and will be replaced by a whale which is more valid . My 5 year old didn't agree and was visibly upset... I digress...

My point was about changing our way of life.
If I had said let's go to the museum today or tomorrow- my wife would say- You are joking !!

I think it's natural for your wife to react in that way, her instincts to protect are on show. As for me ? I don't worry about Terrorism, I just get on with life. But I know if I do get caught up in a terror attack it'll be down to sheer dumb luck if I survive or not. I'll not change how I live out of fear of what Terrorists might do. They've already won if you do that.

As for the Election itself ? I know some have said it should be postponed. But I firmly believe that's giving in to the Terrorists. The best act of defiance ? Vote on Thursday and exercise our freedom to choose the path of our democracy. So If you are registered to vote, do so. I don't care who for either.

 

[Cliff]

I guess this last bit of your quote - when our society has become paralysed and unable to conduct normal life, then change is a necessity. I am sorry your family is in that space but, with the greatest respect, I think you are in the minority. The populace of London and Manchester are rolling on - a handful of terrorist attacks irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. It is a tragedy for the families that have suffered - but it would be unforgiveable if we curtailed rights and lost who we are as a society as a result. In such circumstances the terrorists would have won.

PS - I agree about the dinosaur and even started a thread on the subject!
One of our Dinosaurs is missing....

I am certainly not in the minority! Of course most have no option and we have to go to London to work etc. But every family thinks about the safety of their children. When it comes to a trip to the museum, which is not essential, then I think you would be a foolish man to ask your family to go today. I can just imagine the scenario. Rasczak to wife. We must go to see the museum today otherwise the terrists have won!
Wife to Rasczak.. Fight that battle on your own! Kids are staying home with me today.

PS. It wasn't a coincidence my post wandered on to dinosaurs

 

[Sonic67]

I guess this last bit of your quote - when our society has become paralysed and unable to conduct normal life, then change is a necessity. I am sorry your family is in that space but, with the greatest respect, I think you are in the minority.

Depends. You can go to Turkey for peanuts now. Tunisia and Egypt, probably the same. Holidays in places like that have dropped by a huge amount.

Last time I was in Egypt was a couple of years ago. A local Bedouin used to have about twenty camels for tourist rides. He was now down to two. Tourists and flights and stopped coming in. Not just from the UK but across Europe.

Individually blokes will carry on and know the chance of being caught in an attack is slim. From a family point of view, people will be careful about putting their kids in harm's way and try running stuff like that past your missus.

The populace of London and Manchester are rolling on - a handful of terrorist attacks irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I always find that strange. Of course things will go on. People have jobs. People still have to get to work. It's not down to defiance. It's paying the bills.

 

[Rasczak]

I am certainly not in the minority! Of course most have no option and we have to go to London to work etc. But every family thinks about the safety of their children. When it comes to a trip to the museum, which is not essential, then I think you would be a foolish man to ask your family to go today. I can just imagine the scenario. Rasczak to wife. We must go to see the museum today otherwise the terrists have won!
Wife to Rasczak.. Fight that battle on your own! Kids are staying home with me today.

PS. It wasn't a coincidence my post wandered on to dinosaurs

I wouldn't change my plans. I am equally sure neither would my wife. And it didn't seem to deter however many thousands signed up for the charity concert that followed the Manchester bombing. Most aren't so easily cowered.

 

[Sonic67]

The Manchester Concert will have wall to wall security... Nothing to do with being cowered. It's probably the safest place in Manchester right now. Terrorists never seem to go after the exact same target either. Too predictable.

 

[Cliff]

. I'll not change how I live out of fear of what Terrorists might do. They've already won if you do that.

I actually object to this message that gets repeated by our politicians. We carry on life anyway but are much more vigilante. We can't change our work place or where we live, so have no choice but to carry on. But some how saying this, is one in the eye for the terrorists is guff. They will continue whatever we do.

By the way, those that know me will also know that it is not something I personally fear. Work commitments and all that.

I noticed today, commentators on TV and radio are actually saying Islamic terrorism. It's as though this taboo has been lifted.

 

[r1ecn]

BBC news just now. A Muslim chap said he'd called the Anti Terrorist Hotline several times worried that one of the attackers was radicalised.

Can we expect the authorities to investigate and keep tabs on everyone reported?
Do they have enough resources?

No easy answers unfortunately.