The biggest problem facing the AV industry and its customers today?

gandley

Well-known Member
Sorry but some of that reads as pure speculation and drivel at the same time some truth.

Not every etailer is the same, i can pic up the phone and talk to many etailers, more so if they have a B&M store. I have called my etailer with an issue before and the next morning the courier is here picking up the faulty item, that kinda screws your argument. you can not lob all etailers into the same pile and generalise, yes some are pants, some are truly outstanding.
I could not make up my mind on one product, the guy shipped it to me and said if i was not happy i could just ship it back, a home demo if you like. so that's not bad service is it?
Why should B&M dealers be given a break, total crap, business is business a price is a price. if you can get it cheaper then do so. Some of my bests deals have come from retailers WHO ALSO HAVE B&M stores, why should they be punished for that? total rubbish

There's nothing wrong with B&M as with retailers some are good some are pants, i just dont see any point B&M and there whining. Business changes, like a lot of manufacturing going over to china etc. You cant stop it, change will effect every sector. Britain is almost always slow at adapting to modern markets.
Yes the USA market is a lot bigger, so quantities will be ordered in larger sizes hence lowering the price, but there online service is very sound and as said you can buy anything you want including the premium models. However they are more flexible as regards returns, if you are not happy they will take it back with zero fuss as long as you dont exceed the 7day period. so you do get a couple of days demo time. you may in some cases pay a small restocking fee but it works out worth it.
having a demo at shop does not guarantee you will be happy, how many people have bought a product and the Issues only start to show up week or 2 down the road once the wow factor goes.

Im quite happy to spend £400 pound with out seeing the product in action, i admit i have a good feel for whats good and bad. I spent £7000 on a projector i had not seen in action before, turned out ok, i had done a good bit of research ONLINE and it was a premium model from a good make.
Just because you may need to demo everything doesnt mean every one else does, i just dont have that kind of time. if it was truly bad it would of gone straight back within the 7days you have or i would of sold it on.
and would my environment replicate the demo room? a demo is after all just a loose guide.

P.S i meant that in a friendly type of way, please dont take offense, i just tend to speak my mind sometimes:suicide:

If B&M shops offer an online service in addition to there fixed shop this discussion ends right now. You get the best off both worlds, but perhaps wont be able to maintain inflated margins. Some of the most successful etailers have B&M stores with demo facilities, why is that always ignored?
 

Helicon

Banned
gandley said:
However they are more flexible as regards returns, if you are not happy they will take it back with zero fuss as long as you dont exceed the 7day period. so you do get a couple of days demo time you may in some cases pay a small restocking fee but it works out worth it.
Would you pay £700-1000 for someone to restock the projector if you didn't like it?!!

having a demo at shop does not garentee you will be happy
EVERYTHING i have purchased has sounded better, or in the case of a visual product, looked better, at home. A demo in store allows you to evaluate, let's say, a group of speakers in one place and choose your preference. Once home and they're settled in, if they sounded different or just wrong, you will be able to work out from that how the other speakers would sound and choose the speakers that would suit.

Im quite happy to spend £400 pound with out seeing the product in action, i admit i have a good feel for whats good and bad. I spent £7000 on a projector i had not seen in action before, turned out ok, i had done a good bit of research ONLINE and it was a premium mode from a good makel.
In the mortal words of the late Hunter S.Thompson, "crazy b*st*rd"!! (and i mean that in a nice way :)) There is no way on earth i would, or expect anyone else, to buy a projector they had NEVER seen working before!! As good as most projectors are at that price point, there are big differences in their picture quality and presentation. If a customer walked into the store and asked for a £7k projector and he told me he was buying it 'blind', i would refuse to sell it without giving him a demonstration first. The new Sony projector at £7k looks promising, but there's no way i'd just buy one. The manufacturer doesn't guarantee a top class projector.
 

Helicon

Banned
gandley said:
If B&M shops offer an online service in addition to there fixed shop this discussion ends right now. You get the best off both worlds, but perhaps wont be able to maintain inflated margins. Some of the most successful etailers have B&M stores with demo facilities, why is that always ignored?
The "best of both worlds" only comes into play when you're talking about a retailer who sells his entire instore products online. But what i'm saying is that dealers with products like Cyrus, Naim, Sugden, Linn, Rega etc, won't put those products on the net anyway. So as far as a 'specialist retailer goes, you might see their products online, but you won't be able to buy them.
 

gandley

Well-known Member
Helicon said:
The "best of both worlds" only comes into play when you're talking about a retailer who sells his entire instore products online. But what i'm saying is that dealers with products like Cyrus, Naim, Sugden, Linn, Rega etc, won't put those products on the net anyway. So as far as a 'specialist retailer goes, you might see their products online, but you won't be able to buy them.
Understood but that needs to change, if someone wants just to click and buy let them, if they need to demo let them, dont dictate what a consumer can or cannot do....we dont like that. I would have bought some of those makes if they were available online. If there not, i dont tend to bother.
which is a shame for those companies, im not saying they should be cheaper just available to buy. that perhaps should be the compromise that needs to be reached. I dont always buy the cheapest price online if a site i trust or know to be trusted is a little dearer, the issue is not wholely cheap internet prices but internet availability, does that make sense?

As for the restocking issue, here its still a problem in some places but in canada they are much more forgiving, you dont pay anywhere near $700 or $1000 dollers if your not happy and that if you go past the 7day distance shopping return rules.
I did actually mean that as a failing of some UK etailers, so i was on your side with that one

I must say as its kind of been mentioned but i did order my last motorcycle without testriding it, and its the best Six grand i ever spent
 

Helicon

Banned
gandley said:
Understood but that needs to change, if someone wants just to click and buy let them, if they need to demo let them, dont dictate what a consumer can or cannot do....we dont like that.
I don't think any decent retailer would let anyone just order and take home a £7k projector without seeing it first. If for any reason the customer didn't like that projector, it would be coming straight back to them, a £7k refund, and a very expensive 2nd hand piece of stock. Only the greedy, uncaring retailers would take your money in that way. That's possibly a good way to find a good dealer. Walk in and tell him you want to order a £7k projector. If he says "ok, how do you want to pay", walk straight back out :)

I would have bought some of those makes if they were available online. If there not, i dont tend to bother.
which is a shame for those companies, im not saying they should be cheaper just available to buy. that perhaps should be the compromise that needs to be reached.
So you won't buy anything from those manufacturers because they aren't available online?!!

And once again....would you pay a 10-15% restocking fee?
 

gandley

Well-known Member
not unless i think its worth while. I just dont have the need to demo everything, its not crucial to my lifestyle. I dont like to have the polish taken off things.
I like to plug and go and see what hits me.

like i said i bought my motorcycle without testriding, i loved the look of it and just ordered it, 6K later and im wheeling down the road. 1yr later i will do the same again. theres somthing magic to that.
Same with my pio 505 plasma, looks great, the reviews were good forums were upbeat, Ordered.

that's not to say i have never demoed anything or test driven anything.
When i bought the BMW i spent a long and hard time looking at every detail, took a few different models out for a drive etc.

For my second projector(sim2 now sold) i did do a few demos, marantz S4, sim2 300E and the optoma H79. they had all 3 in this shop in Vancouver.
So somtimes im fussy.....:D

I just dont see the logic holding back products from the internet. Not when statistics show us crazy people are more than willing to take the so called risk.

Its not just me, many of my friend do exactly the same.Some are even worse than me. My close friend blew £35,000 on a car he had never drivin. Just went to the dealer and ordered it, but thats an extreme case and im not that brave.
 

gandley

Well-known Member
so if i walked into a B&M store and said heres 7K i want a marantz S4 please, and the guy says "do you want to see it first" and i say "no thanks i`ll just take it now", are you saying he will say "no, please leave my shop"?.

You as well as i know he will make that sale.
 

Helicon

Banned
I'm not saying he'll say "please leave my shop", i'm saying the unscrupulous dealers out there will just ask how you want to pay. The dealer who likes to look after their customers by giving them the right advice (and limiting the possibility of expensive 2nd hand items to clear) will want to make sure you are serious about the purchase, making the right choice, and not acting upon information given to you by unqualified people. At the end of the day, your mistake is the dealers problem. And it's a big problem if he struggles to sell £7k projectors, let alone 2nd hand £7k ones.
 

geeWcee

Active Member
potshot said:
Where do you get £600 for a top end graphics card, you don't mean $600 geeWcee the price is closer to £450. But the average high end card with 256MB GeForce 7800GTX is just over £300.
If you can get me the new 512MB GTX card for £450 then be my guest. Like I said, 'top end' mate. I'd like two while your at it ;)
 

potshot

Well-known Member
geeWcee

I have sent you a private message regarding the graphic cards so not to go off topic on this thread.

Pot
 

Knyght_byte

Distinguished Member
cant do a long post atm, managers around...hehe, i'll rejoin the debate later while im waiting for Smackdown to start.......

so what was in the pm about graphics cards?..*grins*...sorry,i follow them quite a lot....if you was some serious info on g-card reviews, check out www.anandtech.com, a USA site, those guys are pretty hardcore about it..but ignore the forum on g-cards unless you need specific help, its mostly an ATi vs nVidia debate...lol
 

Helicon

Banned
I wonder how the OFT investigation is going......... :)
 

potshot

Well-known Member
I couldn't tell you mate. When I hear anything I will post it here.
 

Knyght_byte

Distinguished Member
wow, we all got lethargic in our posting....lol...all our hot airs escaped and Richard Branson is doing a new journey.....heh

btw, not sure how much chance i'll get to post on here after today, so merry krimbo to one and all, happy noo yar, and look forward reinitialising the debate once im on the diet in January...heh
 

Chris Frost

Well-known Member
Steve.J.Davies said:
Supply side constraint at time of maximum demand ? give me a break. Supply side constraint is a standard articifice to maintain prices....A company has all year to get ready for xmas.
This had me laughing over my mince pies. Does Mr. Davies really believe that stock supply can simply be turned on or off like a tap?

Christmas is the biggest gamble that manufacturers and retailers alike face each year.
 

Steven

Senior Moderator
I've said it before, high street shops are only good to see products in the flesh

Online, more choice and better prices

The only thing I can't get online is accidental cover offered by the high street

P.S. I spent £350 last month on a new DAP and IEMs set. Both products unavailable in any high street store
 

Steve.J.Davies

Well-known Member
Chris Frost said:
This had me laughing over my mince pies. Does Mr. Davies really believe that stock supply can simply be turned on or off like a tap?

Christmas is the biggest gamble that manufacturers and retailers alike face each year.

Supply constraint can be managed to whatever level the manufacturers chooses - especially with stongarm agreements held over retailers.

This is really one of the major points about the fixed AV market
 

Knyght_byte

Distinguished Member
Steve.J.Davies said:
Supply constraint can be managed to whatever level the manufacturers chooses - especially with stongarm agreements held over retailers.

This is really one of the major points about the fixed AV market

i think you'll find it depends on the size of the company and the product in question.....

for instance anything that relies on ram or specific processing units rather than off the shelf stuff cant just be bundled up luvverly jubberly, what if a tape out goes wrong on a chip, or a batch of ram is recalled due to an error in the contacts or something, that delays the product, and these things are actually quite common, hence the fluctuating price of ram and suchlike, however now its mass produced far more than before thanks to solid state products becoming popular (USB keys, MP3 players etc) its a bit more reliable, but product specific processing chips still suffer problems, if not enough from a batch are usable then the run of that product will suffer, same goes for any problem obtaining the materials.....and this is just one type of problem that could slow down things.......

and as we all know, its all very well saying online shops have more products, but how many times do you go to an online store only to find the product you want is 'on order'....lol......some are happy to take your c/c details and let you wait for ever for it to come in, others dont let you leaving you wondering what to do........at least you walk in a shop, they cant get it they tell you, it'll be a few weeks, how about we give you a call, or would you like to try the alternatives?........

mind you, both online stores and massive chains like Dixons employ the 'super duper extra cheap sale price on this product'......which is never available when you go to buy it.....but they have something similar in stock, just nowhere near as cheap...oldest marketing trick in the book....lol.....whereas apart from end of line bargains, seldom have i known a proper hifi dealer (chain like sevenoaks or one off) to advertise stupidly cheap product that they dont actually have to get you to visit them........in fact most times they make it very clear its the last few left so call first just in case to save yourself a trip....

btw, happy new year all :)
 

Helicon

Banned
LFC_SL said:
I've said it before, high street shops are only good to see products in the flesh
Of course, quality demonstration facilities to personally compare the products you're interested in, knowledgeable staff who have experience of your products in question and others that maybe he doesn't sell, and the fact that they're local to provide you with the sort of quality back up service an online retailer can't provide counts for absolutely bugger all........

Think of it this way.......

Imagine there are NO retailers, only online etailers. Something new comes on the market......Hi-Def TV, SACD, DVD Audio, MiniDisc, whatever........how are you going to sample this new technology? How are you going to decide for yourself whether you're going to fork out thousands on this "supposed" better format? Are you going to order it on blind faith that a technology tv program claims it's the best thing since sliced bread?! Or because a website gives you the specs and claims the same thing?!

I order my dvd's over then net because they're cheap, sometimes. Although i choose to, i still use retailers when they have sales. But having used online retailers regularly for about 5 years now, i have experienced the bad side by being shafted by 2 online retailers going bust, making me out of pocket by about £150. A few dvd's i can handle, but if that happened with the electronics i was buying, could be quite costly.

There are many reasons why you need retailers, some obvious, some not so obvious.....but at some point you'll experience why you need them.
 

vileda

Standard Member
The quicker this scam is stopped the better, I've got the choice of driving down south to get a replacement amp (I want to replace a 12 month old Marantz SR4500) or pay at least £100 extra to get it somewhere in the north east.

I don't mind paying £20 or so extra for customer service but the local (15 miles away) shop said they'd offer less than £100px for the Marantz.:eek: :eek:
 

Helicon

Banned
Are you on the wrong thread by any chance? :)
 

vileda

Standard Member
Helicon said:
Are you on the wrong thread by any chance? :)

Quite possibly, is this not the one about Denon/Marantz etc stopping mail order sales?
 

Helicon

Banned
Nope...i read that one earlier, so i knew straight away where you were meant to be!! :)
 

vileda

Standard Member
:oops: I'll have to blame the internet gremlins again then:)
 

Knyght_byte

Distinguished Member
vileda said:
The quicker this scam is stopped the better, I've got the choice of driving down south to get a replacement amp (I want to replace a 12 month old Marantz SR4500) or pay at least £100 extra to get it somewhere in the north east.

I don't mind paying £20 or so extra for customer service but the local (15 miles away) shop said they'd offer less than £100px for the Marantz.:eek: :eek:


out of curiosity whats wrong with the 12 month old one? if you didnt cause the problem shouldnt it still be covered? or do Marantz not do what Denon do and give you 2 years?
 

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