Tesla X Vs BMW i3

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by PRESSTOG, Aug 8, 2017.

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  1. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Well First let me say I was really looking forward to getting hold of the Chargemaster Tesla X 90D for a week.

    There seems so much hype over these things (Reminds me off Apple) so was really looking forward to seeing this glory machine perform

    Well Wow, Its different from the i3 in many ways. Not all of them good.

    Its fast Very fast, makes the nippy i3 seem like its standing still away from the lights, and the pull away at motorway speeds is enough to have your licence taken away very quickly.

    But where is its mojo, the i3 makes me smile each time I get in, sliding in the Tesla is a bit like getting in a 1980s Granada. (Fake Wood Really!!!!). Its just so cheesy (American maybe). All the plastic stalks etc look like the cheapest bits they could get out of an old car parts bin.

    The i3 is done with flare I just feel the Tesla is lacking,.

    And the creaks! The Back doors moan like teatime in the old foggies home, It drips water from every seam in the rain when doors are opened.

    Range. Its averaging 240 Miles on a 90Kwh battery. What really.. The 19kw i3 manages 100.. 3.5Tonnes of Lumbering Iron vs a Carbon Fibre and Aluminium Frame. Can really see where the weight saving wins.

    Ok it sounds like I am being really negative, I dont mean to be its a great technical car. But it does not have the soul of the BMW. I wont be sad to hand it back, (Unlike the BMW i8 that may have been hybrid but that made me smile as much as the i3 and I didnt want to hand that back)

    This has been a great lesson for me as now when I drive past the large bank of Tesla superchargers in hunt of my lonely CCS Rapid Charger I wont have that feeling that I am missing out of something that I have been feeling till now.
    20622074_454493594932117_2735630834296222533_n.jpg
     
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  2. SourKraut

    SourKraut
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    @gangzoom will be along shortly to put you right :p

    Seriously, it was an interesting and surprising read, thank you for posting:)
     
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  3. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Honestly its a very very good car, it just was a bit like getting a new iPhone, shiny shiny but nothing special.

    IF (and its not likely) that I had £90k to spend on a new EV It defiantly would not be my EV of choice.

    My i3 Rex cost me £21k as an exDemo and although it lacks range I dont mind stopping for rapid charges (I dont tend to use the rex even though I have it for emergency).

    Maybe its my perception but when I stopped at SuperChargers with the Tesla they were all occupied by "Men of a Certain Age".
     
  4. SourKraut

    SourKraut
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    I have a Nissan Leaf Tekna, and I love driving it, but would like to have a longer range than the ~130mls, just for those longer journeys. Will see what the 2018 Leaf offers.

    Not having anywhere near the finances to own a Tesla, but I am interested in following any news items on it.
    Is your loan Tesla just the basic model?
     
  5. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Yes its the 5 Seat 90D. Reasonable Spec, its the one you get by charging on Chargemaster Polar Points and then bidding on it for a weeks free use.

    Totally agree about range. My i3 goes to London 3 days a week, so have to stop in Milton Keynes on way down and way back which adds 30mins each way, I have adapted to it. But have put an order in for a brand new Renault Zoe 41kw. Which will be delivered late Nov (Who would thnk there would be such long waits for a renault!!!!) That will mean I can do the trip with no stops just charging at the office in London during the day. Saving an hour or so.

    The Zoe is a top of the range Signature Nav With Rapid Charge (Owned Battery), and after the £4500 OLEV Grant and £7880 Dealer Discount it came in at £19480 which I think is really reasonable for a 40+kw EV. But thats my limit money wise for a car. The i3 and the Zoe pay for themselves with work mileage allowance but I could never recoup the costs on a Tesla
     
  6. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    This is why personal choice is so important, and why the future isn't just one manufacture, it'll continue to be lots of different brands for different people, just like now, expect everything will be electric drive :)

    I really really tried to like the i3, took two separate 24hr test drive in them. But for me I just didn't get the i3, its quicker than a Leaf 0-60 but skinny tires and short wheel base makes its very unstable at higher speeds. If you don't believe me try giving it 100% throttle half way around a roundabout, you better be ready to catch the rear end.

    Interior quality for me is worse than even the Zoe, hardly any sound insulation the only nice bit is the steering wheel, the rear doors are very hard to use in supermarkets if your trying to get a baby/small kid out, and its cannot carry any where near as much a stuff as a Leaf, but costs nearly double on PCP/finance deals.

    Personally for me I rather have a Leaf than an i3, when our X was written off and I thought about other possible EVs to replace it temporarily the i3 never even made it to the short list. But I also understand why people like it.
     
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  7. PRESSTOG

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    Agree its great there is choice,

    Cant agree on the i3 interior, at least its real wood, what is this fascination with US cars and plastic wood, at least if you are going to use plastic be imaginative with it rather than trying to imitate a tree!

    As for the handling, not sure maybe you chicken out too quickly but I throw the i3 off roundabouts full pelt all the time and it never gets skittish to the point that it worries me. (Maybe I am just numb to impending death I dont know but I find it more fun to throw around than anything else I have had).

    Would agree the rear doors are a pain if you had kids luckily mine left home and I changed the locks so they cant get back in so dont have to worry about that now.

    As for finance costs I would not know I only buy cars I have the cash in the bank to pay for. (1960s/70s Yorkshire upbringing. Deep Pockets Short Arms), and I despise putting a profit in a bankers bonus.

    As I said I a paid £21k for mine as an ExDemo at 4 months old, (Was OTR Price New at £42k) so was more than happy with a 50% Depreciation in 4 months. (Ok so £4500 of that was the OLEV grant).

    For me EVs are about cutting motoring costs, (Not saying I dont care about the Environment but the financial side is what made me buy it). I just cant see the financial sense in the Tesla. (Its probably there but I just cant).

    But as you say there are a good range of people out there and its so nice there are a good range of cars to suit. (They still even do Petrol cars for the type that drag knuckles ;-) )
     
  8. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Well I have found one member of the family prefers the Tesla to the i3

    IMG_2072.JPG
     
  9. Clem_Dye

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    My wife and I really didn't like the BMW i3 that much. There were some good points for sure, but the almost eye-watering price for something that's supposedly made from recycled stuff just didn't cut it. It certainly didn't have the feel of a BMW, and our last four cars were BMWs, and we were expecting something along the same lines. £40K for a car that would do ~150 miles tops (OK, a bit more with the range extender) was too rich for us.

    Clem
     
  10. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Only parts of the interior are from Recycled Materials, (And doing that often works out more expensive than new stuff with the processing), The Frame is Carbon Fibre Composite which is hugely expensive.

    As for the drive, its Rear Wheel Drive and Knocks the spots off anything away from the lights, personally find it very engaging to drive, similar to previous 3 series owned, despite the height the low centre of gravity keeps it very planted.

    As for price, its a low production high spec BMW its never going to be cheap and specs up similar to a well specced 3 series

    Although there are very good deals on nearly new ExDemo, With a £42k version coming in at £21k only 4 months old with a couple of thousand miles.

    The saving come from driving them with no ongoing fuel purchase and very very limited servicing.

    My savings are averaging over £300 a month at the moment, so more than covering the purchase price over expected use time.

    They wont suit everyone, but there are a growing list of alternatives out there apart from the massive Teslas, For those wanting 5 seats and a long range but without the Tesla Price you can pick up a Renault Zoe 41kwh Version with an owned battery for £19k (Brand New Built To Order) Top of the range Full Leather etc and an NEDC Range of 250 Miles (200 Real World)
     
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  11. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Just to prove am not 100% negative on the Tesla, here is the review I put together for the BMW i3 forum after the week and just over 2000 miles driven. (There are some very impressive parts to the car and system, and I honestly said that the supercharger network alone ALMOST had me pressing the buy button despite my overall reservations about the car)

    ---------

    A few people asked for my thoughts after our week with the Tesla X so here you go (Just over 2000 miles done), I really wanted to try the X as Richard has been badgering me to upgrade the i3 to a Tesla, and I have been digging my heels in loving my i3 too much and having reservations about the Tesla (Cost & Size).

    So first lets start with the positives of the Tesla, and the first is a real biggie, not car related but the charging network,

    The supercharger system is just out of this world, and makes using the EcoT and Polar etc Rapids around the UK seem like a 3rd World experience. I have always envied the big bright (Empty) Tesla Chargers as we drive past hunting for the solitary CCS that will probably be ICEd, and this experience has just reinforced that, They are brilliant, they are fast they are easy to use. THEY ARE THE ONLY WAY FORWARD.

    Unless General Access Charging Stations like this spring up on major motorways/routes the Long distance EV is going to stall. It needs centralising and it needs doing now.

    For Example. Coming up the M1 Northbound, I know there are only Superchargers on the Southbound side at Woodall Services, so was going past them to the Tankersley ones, but the car indicated they were in use, the satnav rerouted and came off the motorway the junction before Woodall, diverted down a couple of country lanes and into the southbound services by a backroad, on the backroad were No Entry, Staff Only and Tesla Supercharger signs, Sure enough the lane popped out at the services staff car park and Supercharger station. Charge done back down lane and onto M1 North again, Fantastic, and just not possible when hunting a CCS or other rapid.

    So Supercharging is a MAJOR PLUS for the Tesla, (And being honest the one that almost swayed me on the spot to say Get the Tesla)

    Now The Actual Car, the Tesla X 90d. (The Big Blue Whale)
    Blimey Its Big, Blimey Its Heavy, Blimey Its Ugly (Subjective Sorry but it is).

    The Tech on the whole is very impressive, the SatNav is Good the touchscreen is very responsive on the whole and stuff easy to find in the menus, the Entertainment integration is good, But Tech alone does not make a great driving experience.

    The Design, The Plastic Wood on the Dash, The Interior, Personally I felt I was stepping into a 1980s Granada Scorpio, some of the switchgear was truly awful, the plastic Drive/Reverse Stalk etc, all looked and felt like the cheapest of the cheap.

    The car was a few weeks old with a few hundred miles on it and already the Drivers seatbelt height adjustment had jammed the Passenger headrest adjust was broken, the Falcon Wing Doors Moaned and groaned on opening like Pill time at the old peoples home. Everytime you opened a door or the boot in the rain water rushed down the seals the wrong way and you got soaked. It just felt the general build quality was cheap, the way it was put together and looked was secondary to the tech.

    Performance. It was fast so much faster than the i3. But in a way different way, Richard said it was like the i3 is a nimble cat, you can thread in and out of traffic and lanes, always there and ready to pounce. The Tesla was like a manic elephant crashing through the brush, it ran in a straight line like nothing on earth, but try and weave it around something and it is not happening.


    Energy Consumption!!! We are both sedate drivers in the i3 happy to sit at 60mph on the Motorway to maximise range. Our lifetime power on the i3 over 30k miles is 4.6 Miles to a Kwh. And we regularly get 5.5 to 5.7 on long motorway runs, with fun country road driving bringing the average down to the 4.6 Doing a Similar work run to London in the Tesla the power consumption was 2.7 Miles to a Kwh (Cruise set to a steady 65 all the way apart from a couple of 50 sections and central London)

    Ok the extra consumption is more than offset by the massive 90kwh battery and the superb fast superchargers. But if you are concerned about the amount of energy you use its at least double the i3, so being honest an i3 with a 40 to 45kwh battery should be putting in the same range as the 90kwh X (The Estimated Available range when 100% full was 247 Miles) And I would say it was not far off being accurate.

    CONCLUSIONS (Finally Sorry for the waffle)

    Richard turned round to me yesterday, and said I am really glad we had this to try and if I had bought one I would have been gutted.!!!!! I smiled and knew my i3 was safe. (For now)

    Superchargers Speed and Availability. I have to admit almost made me want a Tesla (But only for the chargers not the car)
    Raw Speed the Tesla is King, but The i3 is the Nimble Agile Choice

    Design Only one winner here the i3 is a piece of art compared to the Tesla

    Build Quality, I doubt the Tesla will have major Tech or Drive issues, but it’s the little build quality issues that concern me and how well it will fair with age worries me

    Power Consumption. The i3 wins this for me, yes the Tesla has the massive battery and quicker charging, but it’s the amount of power its burning to do the same thing. Massive Consumption for mid gain.

    I got back in my i3 this morning and felt happy and comfy and the Solid feel of the Drive selector etc it all just felt so right.
    So hopefully safe now till Richard finds something else (Model 3 maybe) but luckily he is not prepared to dump money down on an unknown car with an unknown delivery time, so maybe when chargemaster has one to loan things may change.

    FINAL FINAL THOUGHTS

    DESIGN TRUMPS TECH
    HAPPINESS TRUMPS RANGE

    drive.jpg
     
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  12. lovegroova

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    Really good to read a non-fanboy/realistic review of the Tesla.
    The comments on sorting the charging network make for very interesting reading, especially when combined with Gordon's Ioniq experiences
     
  13. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Just to point out all the switch gears/stalks are supplied by Mercedes. So I guess what your saying is you prefer BMW switch gears/stalks to Mercedes one :).
     
  14. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    The i3 Stalk has a solid latch as it goes into drive or reverse as well as the stalk lighting up with the D or R. The Tesla one is just a floppy stalk with no feedback, leaving you wondering if its engaged and hunting for the drive readout on the speedo which is hidden in the bottom corner.

    The Tesla one is unlit and has no solid feedback

    TDRIVE.jpg

    The BMW One is lit showing what is selected and clicks into each position

    bmw selector.jpg

    Again personal preference but its a choice between a 2 buck plastic stalk and a solid specially designed selector for a new type of vehicle. Telsa Cheaped out.
     
  15. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Instead of blaming Tesla maybe you should take this up with Mercedes as its a design they feel good enough to go into a S class ;)

    [​IMG]

    It is all personal preference but the things you love about the i3 I really hate, especially the interior which has less sound insulation than the Leaf/Zoe. For the price premium the i3 commands over the Leaf/Zoe BMW really needed to deliver better. Even my mother-in law whos a badge snob didn't like the interior of i3, and choose a Zoe instead to replace her Mini. Her Zoe PCP deal is now up, and she still have no interest in the i3, and will be looking at the Hyundai or next gen Leaf.
     
  16. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    @PRESSTOG Your strong views on the switch gears on the X made me look into just what Tesla have borrowed from the Mercedes parts bin.....It appears even the indicator stalk, cruise control stalk, and window buttons on the latest S class is exactly the same as on the X.

    Just goes to show how subjective 'feel/quality' is, as clearly Mercedes has no problems with using the same switch gear in their most 'luxury' car. As much as you love the i3 even you have to agree the S class is suppose to be built to a higher quality ;).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  17. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Maybe it's just me. If you are designing the car of the future from the ground up do it don't raid the bits bin

    Dont get me wrong bmw did it as well the centre controls came straight out the 3 series in the i3 lazy engineering

    Again its subjective but I personally feel if we are changing motoring do it properly and design from ground up.
     
  18. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    And as for badge snobbey

    We certainly don't have that

    Have 2 i3s Daughter has a leaf and we have a Zoe 41kw on order for Nov delivery so the whole family is EV

    I just feel the whole EV market is to Tesla centred as its seen the be all and end all of EV

    And that hurts the market as there are better and cheaper options (to suit many) available that are drown out by the Tesla Hype
     
  19. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Where do you think the EV market will be without Tesla?

    Regardless of what you think about Tesla' s products you cannot deny they are almost single handily forcing everyone else to develop full battery EVs.

    The like of VAG would love Tesla to fail so that they can go back to making diesels and putting tiny batteries into their cars so they can slap on a 'hybrid' badge.
     
  20. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Geez this is worse than a bloody Apple Fanboism.

    Markets change under their own steam and time. Apple were not first to market with a PDA phone (I used the XDA and others years before) but marketing and hype change history

    Tesla are the same hype running a company on the knife edge of bankruptcy relying on the gulable worshiping masses to place deposits years in advance. To get the latest shiny shiny holy grail.

    Electric Traction was around before Tesla yet it becomes some god like creature the fambois see as the beginning of a new age of motoring

    As far as I can see gangzoom you would follow Tesla if they changed tack and made ride on brooms as long ad it has a Tesla badge

    For me my "enthusiasm" is for the whole future of ICE free motoring and where it takes us

    I will leave it there.
     
  21. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Blimey I've had this stalk in my Mercedes GLS AMG and never ever found it feeling cheap or uncertain about its action. Likewise I have it in my current GLC AMG without any issue either...Besides you pop it in gear by pressing it downwards and then I never touch it again...

    Granted, no idea whether Tesla is using the version that is in the S class and GLS...or whether they use the version out of the A class. Mercedes does have a habit of using the same look but totally different materials. Very noticeable when you get a loan vehicle lower down the range from Mercedes...
     
  22. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    Just remind us how awful you found Tesla version of EV charging versus everything else there is? ;)

    Don't confuse me with been tied to any brand. I've owned BMW, Nissan, Honda, Ford, Peugeot.

    But I am happy to pay for progress and support companies that drive that progress.

    As you say we'll leave it there, personally the next EV am most looking forwards to is the iPace but I fear the price will be too high for us to justify it as the second car.

    We are both aiming for the same thing, let's agree any EV regardless of brand is better than ever the best combustion car....which in effect is what your trying to say with the i3, it feels better built than the S class :).
     
  23. Bl4ckGryph0n

    Bl4ckGryph0n
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    Actually it wasn't marketing and hype. It was proper application of the technologies that were available, raided the parts bin if you like, and making it work in such a way it is attractive to all opposed to the enthousiastes. The XDA and A1000 etc weren't even close, hence that format simply doesn't exist anymore.
     
  24. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Totally agree and I was honest when I said the Tesla Supercharger network is worlds apart from any other. And yes the whole push to EVs is picking up speed now.

    I think the way things are going (And this again is personal conjecture), that over the next 10 years the sub £15k New car market will dissapear. (Be no bad thing to see the back of those cheap as chips Dacias etc).

    Taxation will increase to force the final demise of the ICE. In the long term general car ownership will decline, and we will see a new market of "Buy To Let" owners of EVs buying them to send out as fleets of transport (When the Autonomous revolution happens). (Lets face it 80% of the cost of using taxis is the drivers wages & fuel) remove that and cheap autonomous transport becomes feasible.

    Anyway thats years off yet, but being honest all this fuss about people not being able to charge at home is a bit of a non issue as I personally feel when motoring moves to EV and autonomous then they general owner will be priced out.
     
  25. rousetafarian

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    Mod Comment

    Haven't you been politely warned and advised about this type of post?

    Seriously it's becoming ridiculous and frankly repetitive, I implore you to give it a rest (notes added)
     
  26. gangzoom

    gangzoom
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    You clearly have a problem with me for some reason, that's fine.
     
  27. rousetafarian

    rousetafarian
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    Untrue, I have an issue with the incessant preaching style of your posts concerning Tesla, which other Mods have also asked you to refrain from.

    Telling another member above that he must admit accepting that Tesla has achieved x,y or z (I paraphrase) isn't on, sorry.
     
  28. AdrianMills

    AdrianMills
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    I think it's going to be quite the opposite. More and more cars will get cheaper and cheaper. Once economies of scale kick in for batteries it will be difficult for manufacturers to keep car costs so high for much less complex mechanics and higher reliability. Also, in the first years of this EV revolution, as each manufacturer tries to gain market share, they will attempt to aggressively undercut the others - and they will have larger margins to cut into. I think I read that Tesla is aiming at 25% profit margins for the Model 3. That's a good amount of margin to cut into right there and that's with current battery/EV tech costs which will undoubtedly fall.
     
  29. PRESSTOG

    PRESSTOG
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    Will be interesting times going forward, hopefully you are right (I think it would be a very dull world if the majority were excluded from personal transport ownership)... ,

    It just seems with the ever moving towards packed in city dwelling, and so many of the younger generation having no interest in car ownership (A lot due to the cost of insurance etc) when autonomous becomes widespread they will accept non ownership as the norm.

    Sad really I remember my 17th Birthday, waiting to start my driving lessons (Already had a car purchased ready for me to pass test and Alfa Romeo Sud I think you could actually watch it rust while it was parked )

    It seems a lot of the kids now dont have that enthusiasm for personal transport anymore, maybe its the cost or maybe they would rather be driven around so they can keep their eyes on facebook!
     
  30. AdrianMills

    AdrianMills
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    I agree that as soon as full self-driving works reliably and you can click on an iPhone app to get an autonomous car to your door within a few mins there will be a drastic drop in car ownership - that is assuming it's inexpensive (much less than taxis and much less than self-ownership too).

    But there's the rub - I just don't see the current self-driving tech as being able to provide that. On motorways, yes, they can do that now. But motorways are clearly marked and fairly straightforward to negotiate. Town driving is a different kettle of fish and I wouldn't be surprised if tech enclosed in the car itself is just not enough to do it 100% and we'll need outside infrastructure to assist the car to make the correct decisions. That will take time and standards that companies agree upon - or the government forces them to agree to.
     

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