Terrorist Bomb Plot- What can be done to stop this?

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Cliff, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. Cliff

    Cliff
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    As a country, what can the government do or not do, that will reduce this kind of attack or attempted attack on British society.
    These were British born Pakistanis living a respectable life but had undergone terrorist training in Pakistan and really wanted to create mayhem in the UK (probably Birmingham).
    Now my question is why would they do that?
    The usual causes are.
    Iraq: not an ongoing issue now,
    Afghanistan the same – pulling out and we cannot change history.
    Middle East: This question is not something Britain can do much about.

    Is there something as a nation we are missing? Why the anger? What can we do to stop this in the first place
     
  2. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Give more money to MI5?
     
  3. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Yes, more money to foil the plots is important. Apparently there are a surprising number of ongoing surveillance operations . This kind of thing is not just a one off by fanatics. But that is the Band Aid solution.

    How can we tackle the root of the problem?
     
  4. pragmatic

    pragmatic
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    Cultural, except if they are unhinged loner in which not much can be done.
     
  5. karkus30

    karkus30
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    We should stop invading countries that don't directly and openly threaten us. We should stop propping up dictators and supplying arms to rebels. We should stop putting up barriers to trade and using blockades and other instruments to destabilise regimes and countries.

    We have made ourselves a target and the only way to fight that is walls, secret police and surveillance. Interestingly the same tactics a totalitarian regime requires to retain power.
     
  6. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    We have to fight Al Qaeda and those inspired by his ideology wherever we find them, but we have to stick to the rule of law where possible. What karkus mentions won't happen until we ween ourselves off our Oil addiction (be that through renewable energy, nuclear energy or oil grown from algae etc). The Police and security services are doing a very good job at tracking these groups and the loners. However the terrorists only have to be lucky once to carry out an attack (as in 7/7) and we have to be lucky every time. So when mistakes are made, then the consequences will be massive.

    We would be a target no matter what we do, Osama Bin Laden's goal was to create a new Islamic Caliphate and to crush the West completely as he believed happened to the Soviets in Afghanistan. And that sort of thinking carries on even after his death. We are in the infidels to the Extremists. The psychology of how somebody gets turned into a terrorist is fascinating yet very simple in some cases.
    Clark McCauley: The Psychology of Terrorism
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/10/weekinreview/10kershaw.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
    etc
     
  7. jono987

    jono987
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    For a start every person from britain who flys out to pakistan etc for an extended amount of time should be vetted on their return. However i think the police may already monitor the people who do this, it says they underwent training in pakistan so perhaps the police monitor people who go over to.countries like this.
     
  8. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Couple of points. Weening ourselves off oil will probably never happen. We may reduce our reliance, perhaps in Europe and the US but there will still be huge amounts sold from Saudi to other markets including China. The Madrassas will be well supported.

    Our own problem here in the UK is home grown terrorists (which is how they are referred to these days). It does not take much money to make a DIY device and in yesterday's case, it appears a lot of the funding came from charity collection boxes (just like the IRA did in the US).

    I agree with Karkus about our overseas adventures- but it should be remembered that the public were initially behind the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Benghazi, even Syria. I know the BBC are a player in this and when we see people being killed there is always a call to do "something".
    (except Palestinians of course ;) )

    We are and can fight it with intelligence but at some point one attack will be successful. What we really need to do is somehow make it pointless for the terrorists to think about doing it in the first place?
     
  9. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Actually the BBC tend to come down on the side of the Palestinians despite their awful human rights abuses.

    The wars were never about oil. They were about petro-dollars, armaments, power and control. A common enemy has always served Governments well. Once Russia was over then they had to find a new enemy in order to keep punching the cash machine.
     
  10. Cliff

    Cliff
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    Sorry I attributed that point to you whereas it was Tapzilla who made the oil link. I agree the wars were not about oil but I understood that the point Tapzilla was making is that until we ween ourselves off oil, petro dollars will flood the middle east, indirectly supporting this kind of fundamentalism?

    As for the BBC, while the reporters are usually quite left wing, I will always remember the BBC management over its refusal to broadcast a charity appeal for Gaza. ... food, shelter and medicines which was as a result of Israel's military action in the Palestinian area. Usually when we see starving families and children the politics are removed but not so in this case.
     
  11. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    All of the easily extractable Oil has probably been found, which means Oil is going to get a lot more expensive in the long term (Gulf of Mexico is an example, it poses the same technical challenges as space exploration). Which means we will be looking for cheaper sources of energy in the future (shale Oil and so on will be gobbled up quickly). As for Saudi Arabia ? The Saudi Oil fields have probably hit their peak production levels or soon will. The cable leaks were most illuminating in this respect -
    WikiLeaks cables: Saudi Arabia cannot pump enough oil to keep a lid on prices | Business | The Guardian

    So what we may see is an Oil Crunch, whereby the Economy based on cheap Oil crashes due to the increased costs of Oil. It'll make the Credit Crunch look like a minor crisis.

    Of the course Irony for Saudi Arabia's royal family is that if they are overthrown by Jihadists, they will have funded their own downfall through the extreme version of Islam that is taught in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries. All Saudi Arabia will have after the cheap Oil is gone is the pilgrims to mecca etc and a lot of useless skyscrapers.

    You don't need to go to Pakistan etc to learn how to make bombs, as the information is easily available on Jihadist websites. Terrorists will use whatever means they can to fund their activities. That has always been the case. The thing about these terrorists is that the Police and security services started tracking them the moment they arrived back from Pakistan and planted bugs in the house/flat they were using to make bombs. Had they not done that ? They would have eventually produced viable bombs and would have probably carried out their attacks.

    You have to weigh up the pros and cons of Military action up very carefully before you make a decision about going to war. Afghanistan was fully justified (Al Qaeda base of operations), it was however messed up by Bush deciding to launch a war against Iraq for the Oil. That basically took the focus off the fight in Afghanistan (and the hunt for Bin Laden). The BBC and Sky News are as bad as each other on trumpeting for Military action. Prime Ministers tend to get hooked on Military interventions given the temporary poll boost it gives them.

    The only reason as to why nothing has been done about Syria is that Obama is reluctant to act, but that may not be the case now as he has no more elections to win for himself. Libya went ahead with the support of the US (political support at the UN and initial bombing raids), basically giving us and the French the greenlight.

    You have to defeat the Ideology of Osama Bin Laden. Which means the Muslim community has to face down those who have hijacked their religion (they seem to be in denial about it) and we have to think more carefully about how we project power around the globe (The US leads the charge there). You do realise that Osama Bin Laden's ideology is basically a franchise model now, you don't have to be directly affiliated with Al Qaeda. Defeating Al Qaeda is only half the job.

    There is no some point, 7/7 happened due to lapses between the Police and MI5 etc (and yes I looked into the conspiracy theories, as I did with 9/11). It's as I said - We have to be Lucky every single time, Terrorists only need to be lucky once.

    As for Palestinians ? The BBC and other parts of the Left Wing Media are biased against Israel (yes before people start squeaking I know about Israel's abuses of power). They tend to turn a blind eye at the excess of Hamas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  12. karkus30

    karkus30
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    There is loads of the black stuff and all the worries about running out are false. There's loads of gas as well. We have got better at looking for it and have developed high accuracy drilling which reduces the cost of finding the right sites far easier.

    The USA have had to cap production because they had nowhere left to store it . The money is in controlling the oil supply and not in the amount of oil available. It becomes a stock,racket plaything for those in the know.

    The recent oil reserves and new techniques have suggested we may well have hundreds of years worth of oil and gas left, maybe even more. Even when oil does eventually become less easy to extract, then the market will begin to increase the cost, it won't just stop, the value will climb. As the value climbs it will make the move to other technologies more profitable and the technology will move in that direction.


    Jimmy Carter 1977

    “The oil and natural gas that we rely on for 75 percent of our energy are simply running out.… World oil production can probably keep going up for another 6 or 8 years. But sometime in the 1980′s, it can’t go up any more. Demand will overtake production. We have no choice about that.”

    “To some degree, the sacrifices will be painful—but so is any meaningful sacrifice. It will lead to some higher costs and to some greater inconvenience for everyone. But the sacrifices can be gradual, realistic, and they are necessary.”

    “We must not be selfish or timid if we hope to have a decent world for our children and our grandchildren.”

    - Jimmy Carter, Energy Address to the Nation, April 18, 1977


    Since 1977 demand has climbed and climbed and yet we are still supplying. Now Fracking is underway the US have cheaper and more abundant energy than ever before. They are even converting vehicles to run on natural gas.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  13. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    It's never been a question of it running out (that's just an easy/lazy phrase to use). It boils down to Demand, Supply and Production in Oil fields hitting their peak and then declining over time. There is plenty of Oil in the Gulf of Mexico. The only problem being, to extract the oil it's pushed our technology and know how to the absolute limit. It's been compared to the difficult nature of early Space Exploration. If Peak Oil holds water, then it will likely be seen in the Saudi Oil fields first.


    That's part of the reason, the other reason being it was cheaper to import it from the Middle East than to spend the money on building the required infrastructure to deal with the US supply. Obama is likely to allow oil exploration in Alaska soon. Drilling has already started up in other parts of the US. OPEC near enough controls Oil Prices either through increasing or decreasing Oil production.


    That's the spin put on it by the Oil Companies, I tend to be cynical when they start boasting about new Oil reserves (given their track records in the past i.e. overstate reserves to boost share prices). As for Shale Oil and Gas, there are a lot of factors that may make or break it as a cheap energy source. The litmus test for Shale Oil is a rather simple one - Will you get more energy out of the extraction process than you put into it. Basic chemistry there. There is also the geological questions that fracking brings up. We probably won't know the full effects until it's too late.

    Also consumption rates may well outstrip supply, regardless of the games OPEC gets up to. It is sensible to start using alternative Energy supplies while cheap oil is still around. As it will just make the change over more expensive the longer you leave it.

    Of course if they ever get algae oil to work in a commercial sense, then we won't need to extract as much oil (promising research in that respect is going on, including a novel method of making sure the algae cells get the right amount of light). Also if they ever crack Nuclear Fusion then that dents the need for Oil further (it's a big If). Though we need to come up with ways of cleaning up the CO2 emissions. What we don't want to do is reach a point where the world's Permafrosts start to melt rapidly and the stored methane gas is released. Thus causing runaway climate change, nothing we can do about it. It is again basic Chemistry and physics.

    Personally we should be spending more on Space Exploration so we can exploit the resources in the solar system and beyond. The Moon is an obvious first step.

    Moving to renewable energy sources is a sensible step to take for the UK specifically, as it's an area where we could compete with the rest of the world quite well. Germany is doing very well out of it. Obama wants the US to get a slice of the Economic pie.

    (I'm aware we need to include Nuclear power in the mix).
     
  14. karkus30

    karkus30
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    You can't deplete the oil because of supply and demand. The price will simply rise as the supply becomes scarce. That's the time when we will move over to alternative energy, or completely alternative ways of living and working.

    Its OK to start looking at alternatives but its important that no subsidies or penalties are imposed otherwise we will waste resources before we need to. Its best not to get on the bike before you have run out of petrol or you waste the resource, time and effort at the wrong point.
     
  15. Cliff

    Cliff
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    You say you don't need to go to Pakistan, but a surprising number of British terrorists do. The camps provide a lot of field training.
    Put it this way - a visit helps!

    The action in Afghanistan was not just because of OBL but because of the training camps and the leftover Jihadists from the Russian invasion.

    All that has happened is that the camps have moved to Pakistan. What do we do now?
     
  16. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    Or we have an oil crunch and civilisation crumbles, as some of the more fruity fringe of the internet believes. Preppers gotta love em.

    You have to look at the signs the planet is giving us and take action accordingly. But we are not doing that, we are carrying on as though nothing is changing with the climate.


    That I know, but I was merely pointing out you don't need to visit a training camp. All it would take is a few bright people who have been radicalised to use Jihadist websites to learn how to make bombs etc to pull off an attack undetected by the Security Services.

    It's what inspired Osama Bin Laden to formulate his Jihad against the US and the West. Mistakenly believed Jihad had bought the Soviets to their knees when in reality it was US Policy that crushed the Soviet Union. Most of the Jihadists coalesced around the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

    Have you not noticed that Obama has authorised ever increasing drone strikes in Pakistan targeted on the camps and Militants on the move ?
    The bigger worry about Pakistan is that it will become a failed state that is over run by militants. Which means Terrorists with a nuclear edge, unless the US manages to grab Nuclear warheads before they fall into militant hands. The pentagon apparently has plans in place for that eventuality, by the looks of things. Iran is another issue when it comes to terrorism. There is no reason as to why they wouldn't give Terrorists nuclear materials to make dirty bombs. They will reserve the Nuclear weapons to point at Israel and European Allies of the US.

    As to what to do about Pakistan ? I think it's pretty much out of our hands, given our history in the region. The US is calling the shots on this one. All we can do is monitor those who visit Pakistan and take steps to prevent a terrorist attack when the intelligence comes to light.
     
  17. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Well the planet tells me its bloody cold in winter and quite often summer as well. Its also dark in winter months. It tells me I need to put heating on, have home and street lighting and that I have to earn enough to pay for it. It also tells me that green alternatives are both unreliable and extremely expensive and might end up with people shivering in the dark because someone thought that people being uncomfortable, miserable, ill and dying was a great alternative to climate change.

    The Government is allowing this green subsidy to be tacked onto our energy bills. There is no choice.

    To me, if you think you want to save the planet, do exactly what others do when saving something and start a charity where people can choose to pay in if they think its worth doing instead of saddling everyone with the cost.
     
  18. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    While I look at the peer reviewed Science and get nervous.
     
  19. Wild Weasel

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    Pal reviewed you mean.
     
  20. Toko Black

    Toko Black
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    Your method of what ever Fox News tells you to think and reading tea leaves is far more rigorous and effecient at discerning the truth :)
     
  21. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Yes, because no serious issues have been identified with the way the 'peer review' process has been abused for the purposes of exaggerating man-made (up) warming....
    :facepalm:

    And as if to prove the point.....

    Prof Roger Pielke Jr said:
    Five days ago I critiqued a shoddy paper by Brysse et al. 2013 which appeared in the journal Global Environmental Change. Today I received notice from the GEC editor-in chief and executive editor that I have been asked to “step down from the Editorial Board.” They say that it is to “give other scientists the chance to gain experience of editorial duties.”

    Over the past 20 years I have served on the editorial boards of about a dozen or so academic journals. I have rolled off some when my term was up, and continued for many years with others. I have never received a mid-term request to step down from any journal.


    :nono:
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
  22. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
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    I don't get fox news. I live in Britain.

    What is this lefty obsession with fox news anyway?
     
  23. Toko Black

    Toko Black
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    Yet Pielke still agrees with the underling science of the IPCC view.:lesson:
     
  24. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Hmm:

    From his wikipedia page....

    Pielke has criticized the IPCC for its conclusions regarding CO2 and global warming and accused it of selectively choosing data to support a selective view of the science.

    In 2010 Pielke revisited a question provided by Andrew Revkin "Is most of the observed warming over the last 50 years likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations", Pielke stated that the answer "remains No", and that "The added greenhouse gases from human activity clearly have a role in increasing the heat content of the climate system from what it otherwise would be", but "there are other equally or even more important significant human climate forcings" and furthermore "We now know, however, that the natural variations of atmospheric and ocean circulation features within the climate system produces global average heat changes that are substantially larger than what was known in 2005. The IPCC models have failed to adequately simulate this effect."

    :lesson:
     
  25. Toko Black

    Toko Black
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    I'm not sure about the 'lefty obsession' since I am apolitical and regularly critised the last Labour government on these forums, but as for Fox News:
    It's their unabashed and overt partisan approach that is essentially propaganda rather than news. All news sources and individuals have biases, it's only natural, most news and media outlets attempt to stay as centred as possible with slight leanings to the left or right.
    In the UK we have the Daily Mail which is known for it's rather biased approach to the point of being a rather well known and oft commented on joke.
    On a scale of 1 to 10 where 5 in the centre, most UK press tend to be between 4 and 6 with the likes of the Daily mail pushing to a 7 or 8. Fox News would easily hit a 9 and possibly a 10.

    From your posts, I have you pegged down for an 8.
     
  26. sidicks

    sidicks
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    I feel it important to point out that on a scale of 1-10, 5.5 would be the centre not 5.
    :lesson:

    I'll put you down for a 2.
    :smashin:
     
  27. krish

    krish
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    I think you're wasting your time TB .... WW has never hid his leanings, and he made you bite with the 'lefty' comment ;)
     
  28. Toko Black

    Toko Black
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    Explains a lot about your views :lesson:
     
  29. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    Read the journals yourself and employ the scientific method, rather than going by what the newspapers and other media say.

    Sites like this are a good place to start - Bad Science

    I read the science journals when I can, look at the evidence in an objective fashion as taught at college and then form my view after I've tried to remove my own bias as much as possible. There has always been an element of horse trading in Science Journals, but usually other scientists rip it to shreds with evidence. Also the Oil Companies have spent a lot of money trying to rubbish climate science, even when it's not directly related to the climate changing. Put simply they are vested interests on all sides, like most scientific endeavours.

    As for the Climate ? It's changing, the only question is to what degree is human activity having on the process. Climate change (caused by man/accelerated by man or a natural process) will have huge implications on humanity no matter what the cause is. You may see wars fought over resources in the future like water (Egypt vs Ethiopia over the Nile). Food shortages and so on. Which means you'll have a lot of disaffected people ripe for recruitment by a variety of terrorists.
    It is therefore sensible to start looking at ways to become more energy efficient and developing ways of negating the effects of a changing climate where possible. Or we can do nothing and then whine about it, when the poop hits the fan.
     
  30. sidicks

    sidicks
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    I enjoyed his 'Bad Science' book.
    :smashin:

    :smashin:
    Agreed!

    :smashin:
    Agreed!

    :smashin:
    Agreed!

    Before we can do something about it, we need to understand what the causes are, what the implications are and realistically what we can do about it.

    We are a long way from that point and plunging thousands into fuel poverty and handcuffing UK industries while other countries carry on regardless is nonsensical. Particularly at the current time when UK industry can least afford random extra green taxes....
    :smashin:
     

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