Terrible results from Denon 3805 auto-setup

[Rob100]

Okay I've owned my Denon 3805 for a few years now and it has served me well.

In our old house (when in the lounge) I ran the set-up and normally settled for either 'normal' or 'front' EQ modes and was happy with the sound.

Ever since moving the 3805 into my new room (different house) about a year ago I've struggled with the sound and have found it sounding best (by a mile!) with EQ off, something I have to do anyway when using ext-in from HD-A1.

I don't know if it's something funny affecting the results with my (dedicated) room, but I've tried using the supplied mic and also using the phono output from my SPL meter into v.aux L and in both cases get very similar results. The results are terrible. Distances and speaker types and reasonably well detected, but the EQ is cr*p.

To my ears, just increasing the top end (top 4 frequencies in manual EQ list) by 0.5 to 2db (when in manual EQ) adds a little extra sparkle and clarity to vocals without sounding over bright or harsh.

Front speakers are AE 309 floorstanders and AE 307 centre.

For example, these are the results for Front L on 'normal' after running the set-up:

50Hz / Q 0.5 / Gain -2
110Hz / Q 0.5 / Gain -2.5
200Hz / Q 0.9 / Gain +7.5
1.4kHz / Q 0.5 / Gain +3
5.1kHz / Q 0.9 / Gain -7
7.2kHz / Q 0.9 / Gain -2.5
10kHz / Q 0.9 / Gain +9
14kHz / Q 0.5 / Gain +6

There seems to be big swings in + and - gains, seems odd to me?? Sounds awful.

Any ideas?

Thanks,


Rob

 

[Deleted member 30535]

Unless the new room you have moved into is of exactly the same size, shape and has the same furniture and wall coverings, then you will bound to get a different result. The EQ is an attempt to compensate for in-room modes where you may get some troughs and nulls at certain frequencies. Of course there are biases to this (Normal, Front, Flat) but on the whole the principal is the same.

I'd not worry about it! Your EQ settings look similar to mine.

Changing the crossover also affects the EQ.

You can get EQ on Pure Direct mode and Pure Direct is available on EXT-IN. You just need to set up the menu to say EQ on or off for Pure Direct.

 

[Rob100]

Unless the new room you have moved into is of exactly the same size, shape and has the same furniture and wall coverings, then you will bound to get a different result.

Yes, I realise that.

I'd not worry about it! Your EQ settings look similar to mine.

Well I can only hope yours sounds better than mine when using the EQ modes as mine is terrible.

Point is that the EQ modes are meant to make it sounds better (which it did before). The only way I can get a good sound is to switch off the EQ all together or use my crude manual adjustment.

I just can't believe it can get it so wrong!

 

[Cable Monkey]

They say that the biggest influence on your sound is the room you listen in. What is different about the two rooms? Floors? floor covering? Room size? Also how does your speaker positioning differ in terms of distance from walls, front or rear ported etc?

 

[Deleted member 30535]

You can get EQ on Pure Direct mode and Pure Direct is available on EXT-IN.

.... but EQ cannot be applied to the Pure Direct mode when having EXT-IN. Thanks to Jase for pointing me in the right direction, as usual!

TBH some people have had similar "results" to you in that any EQ mode actually sounds worse than without. Many run without any EQ, as I do. I do not like any of the EQ modes that the amp has calculated.

 

[Rob100]

Appreciate the room makes a big difference. Old room system was across the room with side walls many feet away, block construction, curtains etc. New room is longer (system at one end) than the other room was wide, but side walls are close, construction 2 x 4 studs with two layers of plasterboard (different densities), rockwool etc.

Fronts and centre are rear ported and approx 18" from all walls and I have the bungs in.

My question really is not so much about my room, but about the EQ system getting it so wrong. I'm sure my room is far from perfect, but I'm suprised what a total hash the auto-setup makes of it.

Is the EQ system in newer receivers such as the 2307 any better?

I would like to "upgrade" some time soon as I could do with the HDMI audio for PS3. I am using analogue 5.1's for HD-A1, but using ext-in I loose all (manual) EQ control, so HDMI multichannel audio in the receiver would help that as well.

Thanks,

Rob.

 

[Deleted member 30535]

Are running a sub with this set up?

 

[Jase]

Is the EQ system in newer receivers such as the 2307 any better?

The 2307 EQ system is pretty much the same as the 3805. You need to move up to the Audyssey equipped Denon's (2807 and upwards) for a different EQ system.

 

[Rob100]

Yep, running with a sub. Have tried without, but don't get the same kick from LFE effects.

3805 is set to LFE only (not LFE + Main), floorstanders and centre set to large. Have experimented with them set to small, but doesn't sound as good (to my ears).

I was under the impression that the 2807 didn't support multichannel PCM over HDMI?

 

[Deleted member 30535]

Just to see whether your seating position just happens to be in a non-optimum spot, have you moved the MIC to a completely different spot to see if the EQ changes in the right direction?

If you are running LARGE with sub set to LFE, and although I know crossover will have little if no effect other than routing the frequecies from your "SMALL" speakers to your "LARGE" ones, try running the autosetup with the XO set to 40Hz. Just an idea!

 

[Mr. Nice]

I was under the impression that the 2807 didn't support multichannel PCM over HDMI?

It does, up to 7.1 just like the 2307.

 

[Jase]

3805 is set to LFE only (not LFE + Main), floorstanders and centre set to large. Have experimented with them set to small, but doesn't sound as good (to my ears).

If your Fronts are set to Large then set the SW to LFE+MAIN, not LFE only.

 

[Marcd51]

Hi Their , I would like to pick up somthing that has been mentioned on this thread ... I have ran the autosetup on my 3805 and it has set all my fronts to large and my rears as small which is no problem at all .

The speakers that I have are Mission V61 fronts and centre and mission M5DS as rears . I do not have a sub woffer on my system as I find the bass is more than enough for me however should I check also to see if my settings are set to LFE+Main or just leave it on LFE only what setting should I have it set to unless the autosetup does that for you . My crossover is set to 80khz I was told by my dealer that I can leave it on that and that the missions should be fine left set at 80khz on the amp ...

Please advise ???

 

[Deleted member 30535]

Hi Their , I would like to pick up somthing that has been mentioned on this thread ... I have ran the autosetup on my 3805 and it has set all my fronts to large and my rears as small which is no problem at all .

The speakers that I have are Mission V61 fronts and centre and mission M5DS as rears . I do not have a sub woffer on my system as I find the bass is more than enough for me however should I check also to see if my settings are set to LFE+Main or just leave it on LFE only what setting should I have it set to unless the autosetup does that for you . My crossover is set to 80khz I was told by my dealer that I can leave it on that and that the missions should be fine left set at 80khz on the amp ...

Please advise ???

If you have correctly configure your set up with Subwoofer = No, then the option to change to LFE or LFE+Mains won't be there. These are options ONLY if you have a subwoofer in place.

 

[Rob100]

If your Fronts are set to Large then set the SW to LFE+MAIN, not LFE only.

Why's that?

 

[Rob100]

Just to see whether your seating position just happens to be in a non-optimum spot, have you moved the MIC to a completely different spot to see if the EQ changes in the right direction?

If you are running LARGE with sub set to LFE, and although I know crossover will have little if no effect other than routing the frequecies from your "SMALL" speakers to your "LARGE" ones, try running the autosetup with the XO set to 40Hz. Just an idea!

Tried all that and it still sounded like a bag of old spanners. Did get different results, but all were rubbish.

No EQ or my manual tweaking is so much better than any of the auto EQ modes.

 

[Jase]

Why's that?

Unless you have speakers capable of going down to 20hz or below then you'll be losing out on bass. With speakers set to Large and LFE only then ONLY the LFE content of 5.1 tracks will go to the subwoofer. Setting it to LFE + MAIN splits the bass between the speakers and the subwoofer. They'll both get bass down to the chosen crossover point but from the crossover point below only the sub will get bass e.g the summed bass from the speaker channels and the LFE track.

Setting them all to Small and LFE means that all the bass below the chosen crossover point goes to the sub as well as all the LFE content of 5.1 tracks.

 

[Rob100]

Unless you have speakers capable of going down to 20hz or below then you'll be losing out on bass. With speakers set to Large and LFE only then ONLY the LFE content of 5.1 tracks will go to the subwoofer. Setting it to LFE + MAIN splits the bass between the speakers and the subwoofer. They'll both get bass down to the chosen crossover point but from the crossover point below only the sub will get bass e.g the summed bass from the speaker channels and the LFE track.

Setting them all to Small and LFE means that all the bass below the chosen crossover point goes to the sub as well as all the LFE content of 5.1 tracks.

Thanks, I always took it that this was the other way round and that LFE+Main meant that LFE content would also be sent to the large speakers

 

[Jase]

Thanks, I always took it that this was the other way round and that LFE+Main meant that LFE content would also be sent to the large speakers

Having said that. I think I've just given you duff info as the older Denons worked differently. What I've posted is how the new models do things.

Try all the different combos. One of them will give you the best bass output and most even spread of bass throughout the room. On my current Denon and speakers that's the LFE+MAIN setting with speakers set to Large. On my old Denon it was all speakers set to Small, all bass to sub.

 

[KelvinS1965]

I have to agree with the OP. I have tried using 'Front' and 'Flat' and end up going back to 'OFF'. Considering my centre is (theoretically) a perfect match for my left/right pair, the Denon EQ when set to 'Front' applies too much treble boost and also sucks out the bass (100-200Hz area) to the centre and pointlessly EQs below the crossover point on all channels.

I tried to fool mine into allowing me a non eq'd front three by unplugging the centre during the setup, then manually switching the centre back in. This would allow the front PMCs to be unEQ'd, but use the EQ set to 'front' to get my M&Ks matched to the PMC sound. However in this mode (confirmed by the manual) after manually adding the centre in config there are now only 2 options for EQ: OFF or MANUAL.

It's a shame that you can't edit the settings that the Denon applies, which is how I read one the original reviews as saying. I'm reluctant to upgrade to a 3806/4806 just to get this extra bit of EQ. Does anyone know if the EQ settings are applied over the phono outputs? If the aren't, then I have a spare NAD350 that could be used to power the centre (even biamp it if I wanted). I could use my trusty Tandy meter to reset the levels after.

FWIW The M&Ks are quite a good match to the front PMCs anyway (even using the EQ as 'OFF'), but this is a Denon thread so I'll say no more.

 

[Deleted member 30535]

However in this mode (confirmed by the manual) after manually adding the centre in config there are now only 2 options for EQ: OFF or MANUAL.

I think the same will happen if the crossover is changed from what it was at the auto EQ run through. Or perhaps if the speaker size is changed. One or t'other or both perhaps!

 

[KelvinS1965]

Malice,

As you are using a separate power amp, do you know if the EQ is effective through the phono outs? Does the tone change through your POA10 driven speakers when EQ is engaged? Even if it is I might use my NAD350 anyway to take the load off the 3805: PMCs and two pairs of 4ohm M&Ks make it work hard.
I've seen extension leads that use one device as 'Master' eg a PC, when that is turned off, all the other devices connected to the same extension strip go off (just don't plug your PVR/VCR into the same extension. This way I could use the 3805 as Master as when that's off I wouldn't be watching/listening to any other devices and the NAD, etc would be turned off, much easier than crawling behind the cabinet and turning off the power point.

 

[Deleted member 30535]

AFAICT the pre-amp out stage is after all EQ processing, and as far as my ears are concerned, yes the EQ is applied through the power amp. Not only that the auto set up also works with biamping, i.e. the test tones also appear on the phono pre outs.

Re the plug, see this anecdote

 

[KelvinS1965]

I didn't want to start another thread, so I'll ask here: When using the back surrounds with a DD 5.1 signal, is it better to use the PLIIx Cinema mode for the rears? Note I am talking about when using 'non flagged' material.

Am I right in thinking this gives a 'stereo' signal to the surround backs rather than a mono signal from say the 'Matrix' setting? As I'm using 4 tripoles for the surrounds I'm wondering which mode should be used.

 

[Jase]

I didn't want to start another thread, so I'll ask here: When using the back surrounds with a DD 5.1 signal, is it better to use the PLIIx Cinema mode for the rears? Note I am talking about when using 'non flagged' material.

I'd use PLIIx Cinema for everything, flagged, non-flagged, EX, non-EX...

Am I right in thinking this gives a 'stereo' signal to the surround backs rather than a mono signal from say the 'Matrix' setting?

Yes. PLIIx produces a stereo signal for the surround backs.