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Tell Us all about it then....

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by speedbird001, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. speedbird001

    speedbird001
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    Hi guys....

    I have been told by my ol mate that a few forum members visited the HIFI Show at heathrow at the Weekend...

    I was planning on the usual pilgrimage but was unable too make it... :(

    I am lead to believe that the new £££££Sim was not all that...What screen size and foramts was it displaying.....?

    Also I have heard through the grapevine of a Projector Comparison between a Panel and CRT, I more than most would be very intrested to hear what you guys thought as a short while ago I was all set on installing a Runco DLP into my new home but have chosen a CRT instead...

    Looking forward to hearing what you guys thought about the show and the PJ comparison...

    Cheers....

    Gav....
     
  2. Thunder

    Thunder
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    Is that the three chip your on about mate? :)
     
  3. speedbird001

    speedbird001
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    Hi...Thunder....

    Yes...I beleive so...

    Cheers

    Gav...
     
  4. Godfather

    Godfather
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    Hi Gav,

    I was at the show on Sunday. I visited mainly for the AV Tech demo because I missed it last year. May be I was expecting too much but I was quite disappointed. The Sim C3X was projecting onto a 13ft wide screen and I was sitting about 20ft away, about 1.5x screen width. The pixels were very clearly visible and annoying. I asked Paul Miller about it afterwards and he said I'd have to be at the back of the room to not see the panel structure. That's some 30ft away and more than 2x screen width. He played a variety of only HD clips from his PC scaled to 720p to suit the projector: Super Speedway, a night time concert, Matrix Reloaded, Fifth Element, a space shuttle launch. The image was impressive in that it was big, bright, colourful and uniform. The blacks were acceptable but no better than the single chipped units I've seen (most recently the very good Optoma H78 courtesy of Gary Lightfoot). I was very aware that I was watching a processed video image as opposed to the illusion of projected film that a good CRT can produce. I saw the same space shuttle clip on Jimmythesaint's Sony G90 a few days earlier and was much more impressed by that, especially by the naturalness and depth of the image. I really don't think the Sim was even close in terms of sheer picture quality. Rob was there too and felt pretty much the same way. The KEF room also had a Sim3X but projecting onto a smaller screen. I didn't see it but Rob thought it looked better.

    Thanks to Yasin's hospitality and Gary's efforts I was able to compare the G90 and the Optoma H78 side by side. More about that later.... :)
     
  5. Rob

    Rob
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    I'd agree.

    The 13.5 foot screen was far to big. didn't show the projector off to its best. I sat in the row in front of Henry so was slightly closer, but not by much.

    Also, the hi-def clips suffered from quite a bit of stuttering, particularly the racing cars & shark tale clips. Not a fault of the projector of course, or even particularly the PC which was used as the source. I would think it was just theatertek. It seems to be impossible to get it running smoothly.

    The Sim projector in the upstairs room (Kef I think) looked much better. Plenty of detail in the clip I saw, (Doobie brothers concert) although the video processing did trip up a couple of times I don't think many people would notice, exept fussy buggers like me!

    I think quite a few people missed the other showing in the Kef room which is a shame, because it did look good, but I won't be trading my CRT just yet.

    Rob.
     
  6. crteaman

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    Most interesting,and a nice detailed report from Henry, every report I hear regarding the big sim at Heathrow was very damning indeed.....I am quite surprised, Rob's comment's are the only kind words I have heard yet.

    So looks like we can expect a full report on this comparison of the H78 against the G90 very soon, I know you guy's are normally very quick to get the news 'hot off the press' I hope Gary and Henry will offer their usual superbly long and detailed post's sound's very interesting this one.

    Hope Yas will add his opinions too, it will be interesting to see if the opinions of all three of you matched up, or were at least similar.
    Henry/gary did you ever do the same comparison with the H78 vs the 808, ie in the same room?

    Well I guess its my place sometime soon so you can get to see the ultra in action, Gary, Henry and Yas hope you can all pop along together, 'Speedbird and Rob dont worry I wont leave you out, who's going to do the Coffee's and the BBQ? :D

    James
     
  7. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Hi Guys,

    I used to go to all the hifi shows, but I haven't been since the kids came along. Maybe I'll get to take my son soon: he likes playing with all my toys.

    I was hoping to catch up with the latest gear at the weekend, but we had to go to Lancashire because the great-grand-mother-in-law was 85, so I missed out again. :mad:

    BTW, anybody fancy a cheap, mint Barco 1609?

    When's the next one?

    Nick :)
     
  8. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
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    Hi there guys, just thought I'd stick my head in regarding the new 3 chippers from Sim at the show.
    I managed to see both demos and the Kef one was considerably better, partly because they used a 6-7 foot screen, I believe. On the 13.5 ft 1.3 gain screen, the image was bright and punchy, as Henry said, colours were uniform, but I did notice that the reds seemed a little orange (very slight). The pixel structure was clearly visable and I don't mean on just the images of clouds and sky, but everywhere! The blacks were of comparable (if not slightly worse due to the screen size) quality to the current single chip dlps i.e no where close to a CRT, (but no CRT is going to display a bright image on a 13.5ft screen).
    The best thing about the unit was that my rainbow-sensitive eye could not see any (3 chipper obviously :D ). There was digital dithering present, could be the source and the image was far from three dimensional in my eyes, but it was sharp and bright.
    The second demo was better, but the image less bright and considerably smaller. Was too far away to make obvious comparisons (like 2.5-3 x screen distance), but black levels improved.
    However, both projectors are in no way a comparison to a good 8'/9' CRT in a light controlled room. There is an artificial quality to pans on digitals and a lack of image field and depth that I was astounded to see and the panel structure and pixels were glaringly annoying. Those digital boys will tout it's brightness and uniformity (which is why the demo's occurred in completely blacked out rooms ;) ), but for 'film' reproduction and a sense of three dimensionality, it IMHO, is no where close to a well set up CRT (should post this in the digital forums :D ).
    Just to show that I'm not completely bias, I went with a digital dila owner, who agreed with me on the above points, as after the show we went and compared the same HD clips on my PJ. Truely, no contest!
    It is possible that a 1080P 3 chip dlp will markedly improve on what we saw (dark chip revision xxx) and I was impressed with the Qualia I saw last year, but at an expected £20k retail, the new SXRD Sony Ruby seems the way to go............ that is if you can't get hold of a 9'! :smashin:

    Regards

    Yas :)
     
  9. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Yup, you can't beat a good 8" or 9" CRT.

    Having seen what Yas's G90 looks like in the flesh, I wouldn't mind one on my ceiling (logistics notwithstanding). I think they look absolutely stunning, and the best bit is, whe you turn them on, they produce a fantastic picture too. :)

    Gary.
     
  10. Godfather

    Godfather
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    We kicked off with the Optoma, using the component output of the Crystalio because we didn't have a DVI cable that was long enough. White and black levels were set using AVIA. We played clips from the following DVDs: Gladiator, Braveheart, Sin City, Star Wars (IV). After about 2 hours and a break for food (thanks Yas!) we switched over to the G90 and replayed the same scenes.

    The Optoma looked quite good, in fact it's the best digital I've seen. The filter Gary uses makes a very positive difference, cutting down the light output and making the picture more CRT-like. The G90 was MUCH better. The thing that put me off most about the H78 was the very visible panel structure. I could see the pixels from even 2x screen width and that ruined the picture for me. From about 2.5x screen width it looked nice and smooth. Intrascene shadow detail was very good, but absolute black levels are definitely not there yet – for example the opening black space of Star Wars looked positively grey. The colour/brightness uniformity of the H78 is excellent, and of course there's the perfect corner to corner sharpness that a CRT could never quite achieve, though Yasin's G90 certainly gets close.

    Overall, the G90 produced by far the more filmic and natural image with great blacks and depth. The Optoma produced a pleasing image and I didn't see any rainbows nor experience the fatigue/eye strain that I get with most over bright digitals. Based on what I saw I wouldn't want to replace my 808 with a digital just yet.

    Big thanks again to Yas for being such a great host and to Gary for making the side by side demo possible. :)
     
  11. speedbird001

    speedbird001
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    Hi Henry, Gary & Yas....

    Many thanks for the detailed reports and opinions....

    Yas...I hope to one day have a look at your G90, This is the ONLY top flight CRT I am yet to see in action...

    Oh Yeah....Get Mr Yeun to take you to one of his Awesome resturants called The Royal China and take a screw driver with you, When I took the missus there a couple of weekends ago I parked in the underground car park right opposite and there was a Car (Merc or Lexus, cant remember) with your number plate on it...

    YA51N

    I said to the missus, Look he's got a Flash car and a Flash Projector... :rotfl:

    Cheers

    Gav....
     
  12. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    That sounds like a very fair assessment to me there Henry, though I was a bit dissapointed that it wasn't seen in the same calibrated state I have it in at home (via DVI from HTPC). Even so, I think the comments are fair overall since the colour accuracy wasn't a big issue. Although we set the black level OK on the H78, we couldn't see the moving white bars so whites were being crushed. I did try my DVI RGB settings for the component input but I've no idea how close to D65 it was, but it did look a little muted.

    I didn't notice the pixel structure at all myself (on Yas's 8ft wide screen they're only 0.075ins wide), probably because I'm used to the type of images DLP produce and dare I say it, quite like it, but the smoothness of the G90 was evident without apearing soft or out of focus - still very detailed, smooth and filmlike. I think that makes the sharpness or 'image style' of the DLP more noticable if you're used to seeing CRT. I guess that's a preference thing. We could have defocussed the lens to smooth the image of the H78 to see if that would make a difference as that would have blended the pixel edges and reduced their visibility more. An Anamorphic lens does help a little here too though.

    When we compared the shadow detail of some scenes it was interesting to see that there wasn't more shadow detail visible on the Sony. I had been curious about this after seeing Henry's Barco, so wanted to see if there was anything extra to be had on a G90. The extra contrast gives much better blacks of course (that's what determines your black level from a given white level) and I believe that the sources we have don't have much more than say 3500:1 CR in them to start with. Apparently the lenses that movie cameras use don't allow for more than 1000:1 CR and post processing of blacks in the film stock can improve this, though of course it doesn't add extra detail. I would have thought a movie camera more capable than that (the jury's still out until I get more info from further sources), but the shadow detail that was equally visible in both displays tends to bear it out to a degree. Having inky solid blacks instead of hazy dark grey blacks can possibly make a perceptual difference perhaps, and add to the depth of field in those scenes that depict it.

    the G90 made everything it displayed look solid and pleasing to the eye, even the crappy Avia intro! At one point during my first visit we had some test patterns up (Yas forgot to pause :) ) and the white field uniformity was very impressive. No hint of colouration so the white looked white across the board, and the greyscale bars looked consistent from black to white with no obvious colour tints.

    I felt that the room added some additional light reflections from the light coloured walls on occasions, so the intra-scene blacks and contrast would improve further when Yas gets his dedicated room built. He's not the only one who's impatient for this to happen sooner rather than later. :)

    Yas is an excellent host and made us both very welcome, keeping us topped up with plenty of food and drink. In fact, had he offered us a wafer thin mint I think I would have exploded! :)

    This was definitely a David vs Goliath, except on this occasion David left his sling at home. :)

    Gary.
     
  13. Godfather

    Godfather
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    The G90 is awesome. After we've done the comparison Yas played some hi-def clips just to show off. Chronicles of Riddick looked absolutely stunning!

    Hopefully I'll be seeing another G90 soon....
     
  14. X3ELS

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    Interesting that you guys have now seen for yourselves the same as Gordon and I saw at Cedia.

    Believe me, SXRD is the future of digital!! (IMO) lol
     
  15. crteaman

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    Excellent guy's, it was an outcome which was a forgone conclusion to me, I must admit to be most confused by Gary's comments when he went to look a 'Godfathers' 808 and said he didn't think there was much difference, to me the 808 would still be showing a clean pair of heels to the dlp.

    But in fairness to Gary it just shows you cant always do these kind of comparisons from memory, you need to put them together. It also proves my point yet further that you can measure things all day long in as many different way's as possible, when all you need do is ....trust your eyes, c'mon guy's how many times have I said it?

    How many hours could a man spend comparing stats on for example 'Mike tyson' vs 'Jack dempsey' the tale of the tape tells only the most brief information, the truth is only answered when they step into the ring.

    The thing I like about Gary's approach to all of this is that it has been a genuine quest for knowledge, not a quest to shoot crt down, he just wanted to seek knowledge on these ol' dinosaurs, two thumbs up to you Gary.

    At least Yas has told it like it 'still' is, the HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMP OF THE SILVER SCREEN IS STILL CRT, every year they tell us the 'other' technologies are getting closer or have overtaken.

    Yas you sure shot straight from the hip, and were prepared to stand up and be counted on this one, just as I was at my 'event' so here it is yet once more, 'on a sensible sized screen, in 'sensible' conditions, and for your movies to look like film there is still only one technology at the top of the heap.

    Before anyone goes on about Size, dark chip, black chip mattahorn chip or fish 'n' chips, convenience, wife acceptance factor, quadzillion inch capability or anything else which has nothing to do with picture quality FORGET IT, I am only talking about picture quality here.

    So am I trying to say dlp/lcd are rubbish? no not at all, it's just that there has to be a better and a 'best' and that's what I have been saying these past few months, so Gary which crt is it for you now mate? :smashin:

    Good to hear from you too Nick, Gav and I were pleased when you told us at the 'event' that you had made up your mind on having a crt and getting it approved by the 'decorating commitee', which unit have you decided on?

    Hope all of the above get to make the pilgramage to Norfolk to see the ultra, Elliot hopes to pop along for a 'butchers' will you be attending too nick?

    James
     
  16. JimmytheSaint

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    Thanks for those very kind comments guys!
    Yes indeed, Gary's Optoma was by far the best of the dlp's I've seen. Even more filmic (dare I say) than the three chip dlp I saw.
    Gary used some filters on his pj that reduced light output and enhanced the black level to very acceptable levels. Although I spotted the odd rainbow, they were few and far between and the picture was sharp and vibrant. The panel structure was visible close up, but was not an issue from my seating distance (though it would be an issue if you intend to sit upto 1-1.5 x screen distance). Colours and uniformity were excellent, but some shadow detail was lost, I thought, due to the use of the filter.
    There was some digital dithering that was evident on the edges of sharp white images, that were not apparent on the G90, but overall I was impressed with Gary's dlp. IMHO, probably the best dlp available on the market value wise. Obviously, the filter improved things considerably and I would urge anyone sporting this pj to investigate using them, although light output is reduced markedly. The lack of brightness was an issue for me, but should not be in a controlled dark environment.
    A big thanks to Gary for making the effort of uprooting his equipment and giving us the demo and also Henry for his keen eye and bottle of vino! :D

    PS Gav, that's not my car, as I was in a bidding war for that number plate 5 years ago. Maybe I'll take the screwdriver! ;)
     
  17. JimmytheSaint

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    Missed your response there James, whilst I was typing the last one!!
    Everyone has their preferences, but you're right, CRT is still king if you want to create that cinema-film look in your home! (though the missus may take some convincing) :D
    Gary is a top bloke and a good sport to boot and knowledgeable in the art of video calibration and eating pizza! :D
    I must say though that the Optoma is truely 'whisper' quiet and will keep your pizzas and popcorn warm throughout the duration of the movie. :smashin:

    Count me in for the next event.
     
  18. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    James,

    Don't get me wrong, I still stand by view from previous comments regarding pros and cons etc and I'm still very happy with my DLP. After all, we all use our eyes at the end of the day, but I also like to learn and understand about things - I think that is a positive attribute not a negative one. Some people like to just drive a car, but I also like to know how it works and be able to fix it/improve it too. Much like yourself with your in-depth knowledge bordering on magic with CRTs. :)

    Which CRT would I like? Well, Yas might find his coffee table remarkably light weight one day. :)

    Thanks again for this remarkable opertunity Yas, and allowing me to bring the Optoma over. I thoroughly enjoyed meeting you and Henry again and it was a great atmosphere again just like last time when James came round. I agree with Henry that Riddick HD was certainly a stunning image (well, I thought everything we saw looked good to be honest...)!

    Gary.
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  20. crteaman

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    Hi Gordon, its said the Butchers is next to the crt shop, rumour also has it,those turning up with a small fixed panel were never seen again, yet the butcher has an abundance of pies? :rotfl:

    Gary, as you know, I too am very mechanical so next time we hook up lets shelve talking about crt/lcd, and instead talk about your old 944 and my even older? (1987) M535.....now there's a topic for you and I eh? :D


    Let me know when you can all make it up this way.


    ps, is your boot big enough for the G90?


    James
     
  21. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    James,

    I'm just looking for any excuse. Count me in if you want to show your Ultra in all it's glory. I'll try to leave the family at home next time.

    Nick :)
     
  22. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    I can always put the back seats down. :)

    Will an Ultra fit in a Ford KA? :rotfl:
     
  23. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Will it fit in your loft?
     
  24. crteaman

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    Don't forget crt's break down into a couple of large cardboard boxes of bits :smashin:

    Which unit have you decided upon then Nick?

    James
     
  25. Baggy

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    Sure it will,if he wants it enough. :devil:
     
  26. Gary Lightfoot

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    Unfirtunately, no. :)

    The loft access is approx 26ins by 24ins via a narrow set of steps, and even if I could get one up there, the ceiling isn't capable of that kind of weight. Hence why I went digital in the first place.

    Even so, I'm still more than happy with my cinemascope set-up and I don't feel the urge to change it, so don't feel sorry for me. :D

    If I had a double garage to convert I would consider my options, including 3 chip DLP, LCOS/SXRD as well as an 8" or 9" CRT. But that won't be for a while yet I wouldn't think. Is there a way to use a CRT for a fixed height variable width configuration?

    Gary.
     
  27. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    Well I've narrowed it down to a 9" CRT! There aren't that many to chose from, but I do get the impression from what people say that differences between individual units and set-ups are as significant as differences between models. I think there are going to be big changes in the AV world next year, so I might let the dust settle before taking the plunge. About the only things I've really decide on are Sky HD and a Vantage HD processor.

    regards, Nick
     
  28. speedbird001

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    Hi Nick....

    Theres no point in waiting for the dust to settle because all that happens is someone stomps their feet into the dust again and you will be constantly waiting...

    If you have decided on a 9" then get her up....Think of all that enjoyment you are missing out on :D

    Gav....
     
  29. Welwynnick

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    Hi Gav,

    I'm just mindful of all the 1080p sources and displays of one sort or another that will be coming out next year. Rightly or wrongly, I think a lot of people will be switching from CRT to digital, so I will be able to pick up a 9 incher for rather less then!

    Cheers, Nick :)
     
  30. crteaman

    crteaman
    Active Member

    Joined:
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    ?????? Missed that one Nick, I have a nine inch unit and have HI-DEF from three different formats, one of which I have been using for nearly four years......whilst others waited I have been enjoying ;) you have seen the results yourself.


    James
     

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