Tax cuts lead to the richer paying more?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 13294
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D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
Very interesting article in The Telepgraph from Fraser Nelson.

George Osborne wouldn't like to admit it, but the Tories are really milking the rich - Telegraph

It has been politically difficult – Ed Miliband chastises Mr Cameron for his “tax cut for millionaires”. But something remarkable has happened: those millionaires are now paying more tax than ever. The best-paid “one per cent” are spoken of as if they all employ clever accountants to wriggle out of paying any tax. Yet figures show they now earn 13 per cent of all paid income, and provide 28 per cent of the income tax collected.

This is higher than at any point under the last government, and twice as high as under the Callaghan government (when the top rate of tax was 98 per cent). We are witnessing what John F Kennedy called the “paradoxical truth” that lower tax rates can mean higher tax revenues. When people are taxed less, they tend to earn (or declare) more. It has taken Britain into a golden era of milking the rich.


The article goes on to contrast how Hollande's tax rises in France led to falls in the tax take.

Another point in the article is that the bottom 50% are paying a smaller share of income tax than ever before.

There is a lot of moaning that the 'nasty' tories only look out for the rich. But as well as inequality falling (at its fastest ever level) under this government, we now see that the tax burden has shifted off the poorer and onto the rich too.

This shift is a remarkable achievement given the terrible state of the economy and the constraints that the government has had to work within.
 

domtheone

Distinguished Member
There is a lot of moaning that the 'nasty' tories only look out for the rich.

Read that article earlier this morning.

In my experience, I always here this from the true hard-core Labour supporters that wouldn't dream of voting Tory even if the Labour party had a monkey as party leader.:D

The Tories will never shake that stigma off. Decades of brainwashing by the left wing parties/unions/media:rolleyes:

The low paid have had a good few years. Just look how the personal tax allowance has rocketed over the last few years compared to the decade+ under Nasty Labour.
 
Last edited:

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
I love the way the Torygraph shuffles figures around and tries to promote the less is actually more argument.Most of us dont buy it, though, any more than we buy the idiotic argument that the poor aren't poorer.Yes they most certainly are
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
I love the way the Torygraph shuffles figures around and tries to promote the less is actually more argument.Most of us dont buy it, though, any more than we buy the idiotic argument that the poor aren't poorer.Yes they most certainly are

Hmm, who to believe.

Official figures with proven and backed up methodologies.

Or a gardener in Sussex who is proud that he ignores facts, and who has an ongoing axe to grind with anyone to the right of Stalin.

It's a tough one.
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
In my experience, I always here this from the true hard-core Labour supporters that wouldn't dream of voting Tory even if the Labour party had a monkey as party leader.:D

They do, don't they? :)
 
D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
Unfortunately, the article starts off with:

"The biggest problem with the last government was its failure to realise what it was doing wrong. David Cameron, by contrast, often doesn’t seem to realise what his government is doing right."

I quickly lost interest after that. I did read it though and thought it was well written. I now feel very sorry for the rich: their taxes have increased because their income has increased - in many cases by a huge amount. The gap between the rich and the poor is forever increasing.

Strange that the Tory-led government hasn't highlighted the 'facts' and 'truths' mentioned in the article before now. Maybe they are holding back in embarrassment at what they have achieved.

I wonder when the campaign proper starts for the general election?
 

travid

Distinguished Member
Read that article earlier this morning.

In my experience, I always here this from the true hard-core Labour supporters that wouldn't dream of voting Tory even if the Labour party had a monkey as party leader.:D

The Tories will never shake that stigma off. Decades of brainwashing by the left wing parties/unions/media:rolleyes:

The low paid have had a good few years. Just look how the personal tax allowance has rocketed over the last few years compared to the decade+ under Nasty Labour.

Change a few words in your post and conservative "die hard" supporters do exactly the same thing.
 

BISHI

Suspended
Don't think it is that relevant, the article was about the effect of tax rates.

But good that you have pointed out another area where the government has got results despite those who claim the tories enable tax dodging (and that austerity must mean services start to fail).
Funny, I thought it was about tax revenue ..!
Perfectly relevant as this too will and has increased tax take.
And quite correct that it should .
The important thing will be how thus will be redistributed and that is really yet to be fully understood .
 

sidicks

Banned
I love the way the Torygraph shuffles figures around and tries to promote the less is actually more argument.Most of us dont buy it, though, any more than we buy the idiotic argument that the poor aren't poorer.Yes they most certainly are

I love the way that you can continue to ignore the facts - based on official figures, on the basis of nothing but prejudice and ignorance.

When you can bring something credible to the discussion - and that doesn't mean an anecdote about a bloke you met in the pub - we might take you seriously. Until then you'll continue to be a laughing stock as far as economics is concerned, who posts purely to wind people up.
 

travid

Distinguished Member
Amazing that none of the lefties on here, who constantly and consistently snipe at the Tory-led Coalition for 'favouring the rich', haven't highlighted this....?
:facepalm:

Cannot fathom how any "Leftie" or "Rightie" could not be glad that tax dodgers are being caught. (Unless you are Amazon etc :) )
 

BISHI

Suspended
I'm all for a fairer system and I don't care who delivers it as long as it is more inclusive than what was - I hold both parties responsible for the disparities in wealth and opportunity and hope this is a step in the right direction - but I'm not holding my breath .!
 
D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
Amazing that none of the lefties on here, who constantly and consistently snipe at the Tory-led Coalition for 'favouring the rich', haven't highlighted this....?
:facepalm:

I think the 'lefties' on here are quietly waiting for when the Labour party unleashes its profound and cutting-edge policies in their electioneering manifesto.

Then the 'lefties' will leap into action with their new enlightenment, confounding all the 'righties' on here and leaving them speechless.
 

paulr

Active Member
Very interesting article in The Telepgraph from Fraser Nelson.

George Osborne wouldn't like to admit it, but the Tories are really milking the rich - Telegraph

It has been politically difficult – Ed Miliband chastises Mr Cameron for his “tax cut for millionaires”. But something remarkable has happened: those millionaires are now paying more tax than ever. The best-paid “one per cent” are spoken of as if they all employ clever accountants to wriggle out of paying any tax. Yet figures show they now earn 13 per cent of all paid income, and provide 28 per cent of the income tax collected.

This is higher than at any point under the last government, and twice as high as under the Callaghan government (when the top rate of tax was 98 per cent). We are witnessing what John F Kennedy called the “paradoxical truth” that lower tax rates can mean higher tax revenues. When people are taxed less, they tend to earn (or declare) more. It has taken Britain into a golden era of milking the rich.


The article goes on to contrast how Hollande's tax rises in France led to falls in the tax take.

Another point in the article is that the bottom 50% are paying a smaller share of income tax than ever before.

There is a lot of moaning that the 'nasty' tories only look out for the rich. But as well as inequality falling (at its fastest ever level) under this government, we now see that the tax burden has shifted off the poorer and onto the rich too.

This shift is a remarkable achievement given the terrible state of the economy and the constraints that the government has had to work within.

This may be factually correct, but the sentiment behind it is total bolLocks. That is, if you are nice to rich people, they will be nice to you back". Bullsh*t.
(Unfortunately, in most of these arguments you need to be an accountant to mount a decent factual defence, and i am not, so i will go with gut instinct )
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
I now feel very sorry for the rich: their taxes have increased because their income has increased - in many cases by a huge amount. The gap between the rich and the poor is forever increasing.

But inequality has fallen at it's fastest ever level under this government. Which is the exact opposite of the gap between the rich and the poor increasing.
 

BISHI

Suspended
Again - income and not wealth ..!
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
This may be factually correct, but the sentiment behind it is total danglies. That is, if you are nice to rich people, they will be nice to you back". Bullpoopy.
(Unfortunately, in most of these arguments you need to be an accountant to mount a decent factual defence, and i am not, so i will go with gut instinct )

Who said anything about being 'nice'?

If tax rates are sensible, then more people will stop trying to avoid and evade them.

Not sure anybody can put a number on exactly to what extent, but it seems clear that high tax rates have damaged the tax take in France, and lower ones have helped ours.

I'm not quite so worried about the sentiment behind what is going on in the economy and with the tax take. I'm much more interested in how it is affecting us, and it does seem to be positive news and goes contrary to what those on the left still try and insist about the tories.
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
Again - income and not wealth ..!

I think a wealth tax is an entirely separate issue.

Inequality has internationally accepted measures such as the Gini coefficient based on incomes, not on wealth.

Be interested to see if there was a wealth tax anywhere in the world that has worked? Do you know of any?
 

sidicks

Banned
Tax rates are sensible, and people still go to extreme lengths to avoid paying it.

Shall we assume that you aren't paying margin rates on income of 50% plus....?
 

sidicks

Banned
This may be factually correct, but the sentiment behind it is total danglies. That is, if you are nice to rich people, they will be nice to you back". Bullpoopy.
(Unfortunately, in most of these arguments you need to be an accountant to mount a decent factual defence, and i am not, so i will go with gut instinct )

The message is that fairer taxes are less likely to be avoided.

It's very simple...
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
Tax rates are sensible, and people still go to extreme lengths to avoid paying it.

Tax rates now are more sensible than they used to be.

Which is why we raise more tax from the richest 1% and a top rate of 45%, than we did with a top rate of 98%.

Yet people still go to extreme lengths to avoid acknowledging that high rates fail (i.e. France) but lower ones seem to increase tax take (i.e. the UK).

Of course there is a point where lower rates would reduce the tax take, but I'm not sure we are there yet.
 

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